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Taanis 8b
??? ????? ????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ????? ??… ??? ???? ?? ???? – ??? ?? ???? ???. ??? ???? ????? ????? ?? ???? ????? ??? ???? ????? ??? ???? ????? ??? ???? ????? ?? ????
Perhaps prayer is less effective after one has seen a doctor, since before one has seen a doctor Hashem can cure the patient bederech hatevah. after the diagnosis is made, it is too late. Maybe someone should only see a doctor AFTER davening and doing teshuva.
Nothing really happens when one sees a doctor (unless the doctor is not feeling well, and the patient is a doctor)
Newbee not sure if you are serious but taking the next logical step…
Maybe someone shouldnt look when he crosses the street, since before looking Hashem can have cars avoid the person bederech hateva
newbee is 100% correct. You should daven before going to see the doctor. What’s so earth-shattering or objectionable about that idea?
Bad comparison, ubiq. You can daven before crossing the street too. But definitely look. No one said not to see a doctor. newbee specifically said to see a doctor “after” davening.
So, if you break a leg, cut off a finger, have heart attack daven first?
newbee: Could be. Actually there’s a Chassidishe story to collaborate to this. Something to the effect that hidden mofsim are more readily afforded than public, exposed ones.
This is mamash absurd. Just daven while on your way to the doctor and shoin, you can do both! Please do not delay in presenting however, many things can R’L get a lot worse very quickly!
Is seeing a doctor dangerous Study last Posuk of Rischon of Mischpotiem, and then come back to the coffee room, if you still could possibly not have clarity.
Joseph
You should always daven before during and after doctor, ditto for crossing the street.
newbee So in the middle of the night on a dark country road where nobody will see the nes, I can cross without looking?
You should always daven before during and after doctor, ditto for crossing the street.
So what’s your beef in your first post? newbee also said to daven before seeing the doctor. He didn’t say anything about not davening any other times.
Orach Chaim 228 or 230, no?
And newbee: I had the same Sevara back in Yeshiva and asked R’ Elyashiv what was wrong with that logic. I don’t remember his answer, only that it was something along the lines of we have to do what is normally done to take care of ourselves.
Statistics prove that most people who die have been treated by doctors. There is also strong evidence that most people treated by doctors eventually perish.
I once had a Hava Amina that doctors don’t have Reshus to treat cancer/hereditary diseases because we only know that a doctor has Reshus L’rapos on a Hezek (physical injury) or a contracted disease (Tzinim UPachim). The Ramban on the Passuk clearly says this is wrong. But then I found that the Avnei Nezer agrees with me!
1. There is a big difference between relying on a ness, and davening for a ness. The former is foolish, the latter, depends on if one is davening for a ness nigla or ness nistar.
2. 147
???”? ????? ??? ?? ???? ??
??? ??? ????? ????? (??) ???? ???? ???? ????? ???? ????? ??????, ?? ???? ????? ???? ????? ????????, ??? ???? ???? ????? ??? ???????? ?? ??? ??????? ???? ?? ??? ???? ??? ????? ?????, ??? ????? ????? ???? ???????, ?? ???? ??? ??? ???? ????, ???? ???? ??? ?????? ????, ??? ????? ????? ?? ??? ???? ??? ???? ?? ???, ???? ????. ??? ?? ?????? ????? ???? ?? ?? ?? ???? ?? ?????? (???? ?? ??) ?? ?? ???? ?????? ??????, ?? ????? ?? ????? ????? ?? ?????, ???? ???? (????? ?? ??) ?? ?? ???? ????? ???? ????, ????? ??? ????. ??? ????? ??? ???? ??? ??? ?? ??? ???????:
3. Sam2, You’re not sure yourself what the exact question posed to R’ Elyashiv (who was known to answer questions very literally – exactly how they were worded by the one posing the question, I’ll add that we don’t know how polished your Yiddish/Ivrit is…) and your not sure what his answer was. It’s not very responsible of you to publicize it.
The question as posed by newbee in this thread is not in anyway addressed by ‘we have to do what is normally done to take care of ourselves’.
4. newbee, not exactly sure what is your difficulty with “??? ???? ?? ???? – ??? ?? ???? ???” please explain.
The Gemara suggests that the Shichvas Zera of a Nochri has different properties from that of a Jew, since the Nochri eats non-Kosher foods and is physically affected by his diet. The Chasam Sofer (Teshuvos YD 175) writes that this Gemara is relevant in practice. He rules that we cannot assume that a medical treatment that was tested successfully on a Nochri will also be successful on a Jew. Rav Elyashev zt’l pointed out that the Chasam Sofer writes that the physical characteristics of a Yid are different than a Goy, and that what applies to one may not apply to the other. Therefore, said Rav Elyashev, how much more so regarding the mind/soul?
My daughter is seeing a doctor, and B”H, I think we will be announcing a shidduch soon. No danger there.
If the brakes on the car were faulty and you went to the dr. to repair, I believe that would be dangerous.
whenever you are in need of a doctor or medicine. remind yourself that the medicine & doctor is %100 FAKE & only hashem can save you cause that is the pure truth & they are only the messengers of Hashem.
every kind of sickness has a mida k’neged mida for a sin a person did. i.e. a lisp can come from someone that talks to much with hashem begging the person to be silent & not make Hashem make his tongue shorter each time until he goes mute C”V (this doesn’t mean that every person that has a lisp talks too much)
SO when any sickness approaches a person C”V stop immediately & make a cheshbon Hanefesh by asking yourself why would Hashem do this to me? what is Hashem trying to tell me? what sin do I need to remove from my life & do teshuva?
mild edit. Possibly too mild
upon ending:
when a PUBLIC tragedy occurs to klal yisroel C”V then EVERYONE is supposed to make a public cheshbon hanefesh & ask what is hashems wake-up message for this tragedy occurring & what do we need to do so it never happens again
A lisp is not a sickness. It is a speech disorder.
A lisp is not a sickness. It is a speech disorder.
soo not the point…
the doctor and medicine are 100% real. that is how hashem created the world. a cheshbon hanefesh and teshuva and then going to the auto mechanic for a broken leg is stupid and against everything hashem wants from you. please do not believe me. speak to your own rav/rebbe/madrich or whatever it is you call it.
soo not the point…
Didn’t claim it was a point of any kind.
when you start to-literally, with bitachon & emunah-put your life & faith in the hands of Hashem, you will
1)get to see Hashem in every tiny product & the beauty of it. from a disposable paper towel & the kind of texture its made so you have grip on it etc…. to electricity etc……
2)hakol bidei shomayim chutz…. when you get this DEEEP into your ruchnius system of your life EVERYTHING will become so fake to you cause you will know that nobody can hurt you or steal from you unless Hashem has decreed it, so everything you see around you are just faces & cover ups but REALLY it is ALL coming straight from Hashem.
3)
Isn’t there a Mishnah in Berachos that lists examples of tefilos shav? If I’m not mistaken, one of the examples is davening for a specific gender of a child when a woman is pregnant. The implication is, is that once a woman is pregnant, even though no one knows the gender of the baby, it’s still a tefilos shav to daven for a gender that has already been determined, and it would be a neis to change it. By extension, I would say that seeing a doctor does not change the teva. If a physical reality exists, it exists, whether you know about it or not, and it would be a neis to change it, whether it is recognized or not.
please explain shmos perek chaf alef passuk yud tes.
best medicine for all issues in life. from health to spiritual issues etc… is TEFILLA & hisbodedus with Hashem from your heart
Yes, it is the best medicine. But along with it, one must do the proper hishtadlus. You can consult your LOR as to what adequate hishtadlus is.
Denigrating doctors and medicines doesn’t feel like the right thing to do. Hashem created all of the medicines out there, and they are all so magnificent and amazing.
So yes, you are right that we need to remember to daven to Hashem for refuos, but to write off the magnificence of the medical field as “100% false” is most definitely the wrong perspective.
Wrong is too nice. Stupid is more accurate.
It depends. If you are a kvetch, seeing a doctor might make you feel better and interfere with your kvetching.
LG
you are correct that every person must do his/her hishtadlus. but once you’ve worked hard-many years-on your faith & trust in Hashem. taking medicine-which the person will still take when necessary- will become an ACT cause it will be %100 fake to you due to the fact that you have reached this DEEP HIGH LEVEL of bitzchon & emunah in Hashem & you have come to realize that only Hashem can save you. millions of dollars cant save you neither the Gadol Hador neither Obama can save you ONLY HASHEM CAN HELP/SAVE YOU.
start working on yourself now & build up your relationship with Hashem personally-through learning chovos Halevovos & making the messages in the sefer a part of your life-this will help you reach this high level of closeness with Hashem & remove this physical world from you. (i.e. EVERYTHING physical will become a fake actor to you. from doctors to clothing to cars etc… cause you will know 24-7 that its %100 percent ALL HASHEM)
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