Is “shushing” the “shusher” nekama?

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  • #1683141

    In my shul there is a notorious “shusher”: If she spots anyone whispering to her neighbor, she will loudly “shush” the offender, even when her shushing is often far more boisterous and disturbing than the silent whispering. Last shabbos, shortly after she shushed me, I saw her greeting her friend with a loud “Gut shabbos Malkie!!”,this was during kriyas HaTorah! I wonder if I was allowed to shush her or would that be nekama?

    #1683176

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Yes it’s נקמה

    On the bright side when the feeling to do it comes up you can give someone a ברכה and have her shoosh you for that too

    #1683188

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Its only considered retaliation if you preface your shush with an even louder “Gut Shabbos Malkie” and then wishing the shusher a refuah shelamah for her “issues”.

    #1683194

    If “shushing” a talker is a mitzva (such as kedushas bais haknesess), is it doche the lo sa’asay of nekama?

    #1683206

    1
    Participant

    It’s an actual halacha: when you shush someone in shul, you are being mevazeh someone b’rabim.

    #1683207

    1
    Participant

    Shushing is done by either people who feel holier than thou or people who are jealous that no one is talking to them, but the second someone talks to them in shul, they’ll carry on a conversation.

    #1683218

    Joseph
    Participant

    What do you do about the guy who answers his phone in shul during minyan?

    #1683214

    Although I am often the victim of shushing, I assume the shusher is doing “hochayach tochiach” (obligation to reproach a wrong doer). When being mocheh a wrong doer (and to prevent one from inning), if needed, one may be mevayish him. That is how I justify those who aare mevazeh me – that they believe they are fulfilling a mitzva (and I am the cheftza shel mitzva like the hoshana that gets klapped)

    #1683227

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    For the past year or two, there is a constant series of video ads here on YWN with the header “Stop the Talking in Shul”. No question that the pervasive chattering is a big problem and getting worse. Its also been noted here sarcastically that the Conservative shuls seem to do a better job of maintaining a quiet and respectful atmosphere then the frum shuls. Thus, there is clearly a need for shushers, although having the gabbai klop on his shtender may sometimes have more effect than some Balabusta doing a loud shush from the ezrash nashim.

    #1683241

    1
    Participant

    GH but Conservatives go to shul like 2 times a year

    #1683295

    BaltimoreMaven
    Participant

    1 is spouting narishkeit. “Screaming” at someone for talking in shul during certain parts of the davening is the Halocha. Straight out of the Shulchan Aruch. And many Conservative Jews go to shul every day; most go every Shabbos. It’s not Reform.

    #1683298

    takahmamash
    Participant

    True story:
    Many years ago, I davened regularly in a largish shule. My makom was in the front. In the row in front of me were several talkers, who happened to be machers in the shule. On one Shabbat, they were talking particularly loudly. I turned around (so I was not facing them), and shushed them quietly. One of the men took exception to this, and berated me right then and there.

    I changed seats the next Shabbat, and I never did move back to that spot.

    Right before Rosh Hashana that year, he came up to me, apologized, and asked mechila for embarrassing me the way he did. He said he realized that he was wrong, and that he had been working on not talking during davening. He even invited me to move back to the original seat. Of course, I forgave him, but I didn’t move back to the old seat.

    And by the way, to 1: There is a conservative shule down the street from where I daven in the mornings – they have well attended minyanim 3 times a day, every day. So yes, many go only 3 times a year, but there are some who go 3 times a day.

    #1683324

    anonymous Jew
    Participant

    Almost as bad as the talking that goes on in shul is the disrespectful shmoozing that goes on during chupas.

    #1683349

    Avi K
    Participant

    The Mishna Berura says that there should be official shushers. The Kaf haChaim (OC 124:37) agrees and adds that the talkers should receive many punishments and be embarrassed in public.

    #1683351

    Anon Jew, You compare talking in shul to talking during chuppahs (you say it is “almost as bad”)?!

    Is there an issur of talking during chuppah?

    It is “at most” derech eretz – a guest should not to be disruptive of his host’s affair by making noise of chatter! There is a mitzvah to hear the brochos and answer Amen (which applies equally when you are at the zoo and someone makes a brocha on icecream – cholov yisroel of course).

    But what’s the chiyuv to hear each word of the kesuba? (which is read primarily to make a hefsek between airusin and nisuin).

    The kesuba is not like Megilas Esther! If you miss a few words of the kesuba, it’s ok.

    Are you a shusher at chuppahs?

    #1683365

    There is a halacha that one must not talk while eating (“ain soichin b’seudah”), it is a sakana (choking hazzard – “shema yadim kona l’veshet” food can go into air pipe).

    Is it okay to shush people talking in an eatery (restaurant, coffee or pizza shop)? Simply to enforce the halacha and to prevent them from danger (“U’shemartem me’od nafshoseichem”)!

    Before starting a campain to “Stop The Talking” in eateries and sending out armies of shushers, is there a heter for shmoozing while eating?

    #1683381

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Why is it that some are groping for haalachic reasons why schmoozing is “ok” and “shushing” is nekama. Putting halacha aside (figuratively of course), there are situations in daily secular life where you wouldn’t engage in schmoozing during certain public events……common sense alone dictates not to schmooze during davening, kariyas hatorah, kiddushin or the Rav’s darasha……of lesser concern is not to disrupt the guy sharing his tasting notes on the new single malt Scotch being poured at the kiddush club

    #1683384

    1
    Participant

    Also I’d add about chuppas that it takes 10 minutes in between each bracha to figure out who’s getting the next one. They empty the shmorg and people wait around for 25 minutes just for it to get started.

    #1683444

    To #1 at chuppahs “it takes 10 minutes in between each bracha to figure out who’s getting the next one.’

    Ditto at kriyas HaTorah, bein gavra l’gavra with lengthy mi’she’bairach…yet Shulchan Oruch even forbids learning during that “down time”….

    Again I ask, are you comparing talking during chuppahs to talking in shul? (- they both have “bein gavra l’gavra”!)

    #1683388

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Joseph,

    “What do you do about the guy who answers his phone in shul during minyan?”

    On Shabbos? What kind of shul are you going to?

    #1683447

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “Is “shushing” the “shusher” nekama?”

    Nekama or not, it is infantile.

    #1683451

    anonymous Jew
    Participant

    Rebbitzen, so, if it not something that you designate as halacha, you pasken that you can act like a boor.

    Also, please don’t so quick to call everything a halacha and assur.

    #1683443

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    1: You are entirely correct that the wasted time, inaction, kvetching, uncertainty or slow-motion movements on the bimah make the tzibur restless and invite the schmoozing and shushing. Its probably unrealistic to expect the davening, kariyah, mi sheberachs, derasha etc. to move along like clockwork, permanently ban any shaliach tzibur who thinks he is Moshe Koussevitzky and for the rav to get directly to the point of his dvar torah but certainly, some acceleration in the current pace of the davening would reduce (albeit not eliminate) the schmoozing and shushing. I was at one shul where after the chazaras hashatz and while the gabboim were getting the sefer on the bimah after pesicha, the Rav got up, wished everyone a gutten shabbos, asked everyone to wish the same to those sitting nearby and allowed about 2-3 minutes for everyone to complete their “critical communications” before putting their mouths into “silent mode” until after davening.

    #1683479

    anon Jew – “if it not something that you designate as halacha, you pasken that you can act like a boor.”

    I do not condone acting as a boor.

    Don’t you know that “ain boor yerei chet” (Mishne Avos 2:5)?

    Why would you think otherwise?

    My Yiddishkeit includes Mentchlichkeit and Erlichkeit. At the same time, Halacha gives definition to what is considered acting as a mentch or erlich. It’s not defined by “hergesh” or “s’voras ha’beten” or by what feels right or wrong. Often “da’as ba’al ha’bayis hepech Torah”. Anyone who learned through Choshen Mishpat will be astounded that Halacha is often incompatible with what he assumed as proper dealings with his fellow in monetary matters.

    #1683569

    Heargod
    Participant

    Vibisheal talk is an established institution in the ladies section and is therefore a minhug that should never be shushed except during shofer or migilah

    #1683589

    Thoughts on how far can a shusher be from the shushie that is getting shushed?

    The shusher in my shul is sometimes shushing all the way across the entire shul, making people suspect that the shush is directed to the wrong shushie. She does long-distance shushes!

    Shouldn’t a shusher be required to be withing a certain distance of the shushie, (like within the same zip code), so that it is clear whom she is shushing?

    If you were ever shushed or if you are a shusher – I would like to hear your thoughts before I suggest proposals to the shul board of their shushing policy.

    #1683602

    BocaMaggid
    Participant

    At one of the Thursday evening Shiurim by Rav Avigdor Miller, Z”L, a question was sent up from the olam, “How do I stop my neighbor from talking in Shul?” Rav Miller’s answer? “Be quiet yourself.”

    #1683625

    Shh!
    I’m trying to sleep

    #1683622

    Boca – I think pshat of what you cite bshem Rav Miller is that a talker needs someone to engage in conversation with. To stop the neighbor – by not engaging with him in conversation (“stop talking yourself”) he will also stop talking (no one to talk to).

    Any thoughts about Stop the Talking in eateries – which is neged halacha (to talk while eating – it is a sakana), yet many ignore the halacha? Is it ok to shush in eateries?

    #1698868

    If “shushing” the “shusher” is nekama, what about giver the “shusher” a “look”?

    Nekama requires a ma’aseh (action), or a least dibbur (talking or shushing), but “riyah” (looking) alone – is that a nekama? (Is it like hezek riyah…damage caused by looking)?

    #1699086

    LerntminTayrah
    Participant

    The worst kind are the insincere shushers. Totally fake “NU!!”‘s

    #1699199

    This Shusher thinks it’s a mitzva – maybe says Lshem Yichud before doing the mitzva…I wonder what brocha one should make before shushing? P’sach pi’cha v’amal’eihu. Anyway, I am the cheftza shelz mitzvah for the shusher to do with me thw mitzvah.

    #1699233

    LerntminTayrah
    Participant

    Copypasta but good copypasta:
    Many people are aware that Rav Yom Tov Lippmnn Heller zt”l the Rav of Cracow and the author of the Tosfos Yom Tov composed a special prayer, a mi sh’bayrach, for those who refrain from talking during Davening. Unfortunately, not all of us have reached this ideal yet, which is why the Tefilah of the Tosfos Yom Tov was necessary.
    The Shulchan Aruch (OC 124:7) discusses the terrible Aveira of talking during Shmoneh Esreh. Indeed, it is the only place in Shulchan Aruch where Rav Karo uses the expression, “ v’gadol avono minso — his sin is too great to carry.” It would seem that Rav Karo employed the language used by Rabbeinu Yona in his Igeres HaTeshuvah ( section 6). The Mishna Bururah (124:27) cites the Eliyahu Rabbah that a number of shuls ended up being destroyed on account of this violation.
    The Tefilah of the Tosfos Yom Tov was composed during the Chmelnieki Massacres 1648-1649 (Gzeiras Tach v’tat) where some 300,000 Jews were murdered by Cossacks under his leadership. The Chida explains that it was revealed to the Tosfos Yom Tov from Heaven that the talking was the cause of the terrible tragedy. We still recite the special Mishebayrach to this day in many communities throughout the world.

    #1699441

    But the shusher has so much ha’no’ah when doing the shushing, and mitzvos lav le’henos nitnu?!

    #1699586

    ZionGate
    Participant

    Re: mitzvos lav le’henos nitnu……
    Bameh devorim amurim, if the shusher means it k’shem mitzvah. However, If he shushes for his own benefit, there’s a svoroh to teineh that he can enjoy hanuh’eh bli pikpuk.
    Because in such a case, lichoireh mei nafkuh minah between shushing and sushi’ng. L’aniyas daati both can be enjoyed even bo -byom l’chulei almah… no?

    #1699589

    ZionGate
    Participant

    …. eluh mei ?? You wanna shlugg upp the hekish because there’s a difference between these activites…
    Ahhh-haaaaaaa, I hear, I hear …. nu…. so tzurich iyun but it’s not impossible.

    #1699590

    avreichamshlomo
    Participant

    And aveiros lehenos nitnu?
    Obviously not, and it does not need to be said by the chachamim.

    #1699646

    themasmidofbrisk
    Participant

    was rav chaim kaniefsky the gadol hador?

    #1708831

    themasmid – what do you mean “was”? EXcuse me! He IS!!!

    #1709864

    When the shusher is shushing during shemone eisrei, it disturbs everyone. If I shush the shusher then, I might be adding to the disturbance.

    Is there any eitzah or way to shush the shusher during shemone esrei without adding to the disturbance?

    Maybe I should pre-empt the shusher by shushing the shusher before shemonei esrei begins – putting the shusher on notice not to shush during shemonei esrei?

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