November 26, 2021 12:08 am at 12:08 am #2034318Shimon NodelParticipant
“He wasn’t my only rebbe, and wasn’t my biggest influence, but i consider him my rov for psak halacha, and i was zocheh to learn a lot from him”
Wow, a full backtrack. Do you often change your mind so quickly?
Gadol, he doesn’t have smichaNovember 26, 2021 12:08 am at 12:08 am #2034317
AVDR: Agreed, quite “eclectic”.
BTW: I read this evening that several Jewish Progressive Groups on college campuses have adopted R’ Belsky’s shitah on not celebrating Thanksgiving unless it is explicitly done in a narrow way of showing patriotism or loyalty for America. The more politically woke campus yidden have said it is ganz assur to celebrate Thanksgiving in ANY way since this yom tov is synonymous with the “genocide” committed against America’s native tribes. Most of them were probably not TvD alumni.November 26, 2021 7:32 am at 7:32 am #2034350yungermanSParticipant
In yiddishkeit every day is a day of thanksgiving to Hashem for so much that Hashem gives us and continues to give us non stop without us even noticing.
May we all start to see all gifts Hashem gave us. And thank Hashem daily for every tiny gift Hashem gives us.November 26, 2021 8:41 am at 8:41 am #2034376
Shimon, when did I ever say anything to the contrary about rav belsky? I don’t see where i backtracked. I also don’t see the relevance of whether or not i have smicha; if you don’t like what I say, then disagree; it’s an online forum, not a shu”t sefer.November 26, 2021 8:51 am at 8:51 am #2034382
כל הנשמה תהלל י-ה – על כל נשמה ונשמה תהלל י-ה, for every breath take we should praise Hashem. We take for granted being healthy without any problems. The philosophers say, bad is good. שחורה אני ונווה
when being not healthy and recover do I realize the help I was given by Hashem to praise Him.November 26, 2021 11:06 am at 11:06 am #2034199
The real issue is that this is a holiday that we can relate to. Just re-read Lincoln’s 1863 proclamation and I do not discern any hint of avoda zara. Tell me if you see it below. The main objection could be danger of assimilation and absorbing non-Jewish holidays. So, it is a tough piece of turkey…
ever watchful providence of Almighty God. ..No human counsel hath devised nor hath any mortal hand worked out these great things. They are the gracious gifts of the Most High God, who, while dealing with us in anger for our sins, hath nevertheless remembered mercy. … as a day of Thanksgiving and Praise to our beneficent Father who dwelleth in the Heavens. ..And I recommend to them that while offering up the ascriptions justly due to Him for such singular deliverances and blessings, they do also, with humble penitence for our national perverseness and disobedience, commend to His tender care all those who have become widows, orphans, mourners or sufferers in the lamentable civil strife in which we are unavoidably engaged, and fervently implore the interposition of the Almighty Hand to heal the wounds of the nation and to restore it as soon as may be consistent with the Divine purposes to the full enjoyment of peace, harmony, tranquillity and Union.November 26, 2021 11:06 am at 11:06 am #2034334
For those on the pro-Thanksgiving side, some humility is still in order. Consider R Hirsh praise of Shiller, this did not age well.November 26, 2021 12:08 pm at 12:08 pm #2034545
AAQ: Can you please elaborate on Rav Hirsch’s praise of Shiller not aging well?November 26, 2021 1:26 pm at 1:26 pm #2034563
Ukm, I think what he means is that rav schwab said that after the Holocaust and seeing what Germans (and the rest) are capable of, rav hirsch would have not been as enamored with schiller. It should be noted that rav Hirsch’s praise of schiller was in the context of him having “jewish values” in his words but he was particularly glowing in his praises…rav schwab said that he wouldn’t have gone so far.
AAQ, they all believed in the christian view of god as a trinity, and as such it would be assurNovember 26, 2021 1:27 pm at 1:27 pm #2034565anonymous JewParticipant
In one respect those who want to assur Thanksgiving are like the woke cancel culture crowd. It’s not enough for them to not observe ( which is their right ) , by advocating its prohibition by assuring it they want to stop everyone.November 26, 2021 2:54 pm at 2:54 pm #2034584
Avra, Tosfas says that is minhag avoseihem biyedeihem, and they don’t really believe in trinity.November 26, 2021 2:55 pm at 2:55 pm #2034585TS BaumParticipant
n0mesorah, black friday is simply a day when there are supers sales.
Having a special dinner with turkey dafka on thanksgiving is not the right thing.November 26, 2021 2:56 pm at 2:56 pm #2034589
AJ: Do you say the same about those who seek to assur Jews from celebrating Christmas? Y’know, trees, presents, etc.November 26, 2021 3:18 pm at 3:18 pm #2034622anonymous JewParticipant
Ujm, not a good anolgy as you are choosing to assume that Thanksgiving is a Christian holiday..That may be your belief but don’t force it on othersNovember 26, 2021 3:36 pm at 3:36 pm #2034632
AJ, same. You are choosing to assume that putting out colorful lights, red stockings and giving presents under a tree is Christian practices. Whereas others see it as secular practices. Do you want to stop such Jews from putting out a cute tree, lights and presents?November 26, 2021 3:43 pm at 3:43 pm #2034635n0mesorahParticipant
To sum up the conversation, after making a dozen or so assumptions of course it’s assur. It seems like we all agree.November 26, 2021 3:50 pm at 3:50 pm #2034644n0mesorahParticipant
Rav Schwab is not of the same cloth as Rav Hirsch. Shiller had a lot to say against Judaism. And his writings were used in the holocaust. But I think that Rav Hirsch was aware of Shiller’s thoughts and did not worry about giving the anti Semites material. There is another part to the story that I am forgetting.November 26, 2021 4:03 pm at 4:03 pm #2034646
HaGaon HaRav Shimon Schwab ZT”L was the heir and successor to HaGaon HaRav Samson Raphael Hirsch ZTL’s position and leadership of his community. There is no one better suited to speak as to what Rav Hirsch intended, or would’ve acted in different circumstances, than Rav Schwab.November 27, 2021 6:31 pm at 6:31 pm #2034743
Is giving gifts on Chanukah considered “minhag hagoyim? Is putting a big illuminated menorah out on the front lawn (common practice at many Chabad houses) being mehader mitzvah or just adopting a goyieshe tradition with our own symbolism?November 27, 2021 6:31 pm at 6:31 pm #2034744
Nomesorah, what you’re saying is the equivalent of an achron explaining a machlokes rishonim…say the taz explains shitas harambam, and the raavad argues. Following your reasoning, we ahould ignore the taz, because the raavad was biggee – that’s not how it works. No one is saying that rav schwab was in the same league as rav hirsch; rav schwab isn’t arguing on rav hirsch, he’s explaining him, and as was pointed out, he was one of the two or three biggest mamshichei darcho and more than capable of saying not just “vos hut the rebbe gezugt”, but “vos volt the rebbe hht gezugt”November 27, 2021 7:08 pm at 7:08 pm #2034775
Also, i did a little digging and i see no indication of anti semitic or anti torah themes or statements from schiller. Apparently, one character may have been jewish and had some negative attributes, which the Nazis capitalized on, but can you name a source where he “had bad things to say about judaism”? Rav hirsch definitely would not have praised him or recommended that “every jewish home should have schiller” if that were true.November 27, 2021 8:49 pm at 8:49 pm #2034747
Re Stiller. On one hand, we learn from r Hirsh that it is not avoda zora and it is permissible to value what one finds good in non Jewish thought. On the other hand, of course, we see that we can be too optimistic… Hanukkah coming, we have a similar case with Greeks with more time for hindsight. With this history, I am decidedly undecided in the debate between those who say that usa is a new reincarnation of Esav and those who think this is the best thing after sliced bread. To quote r Steinzalz, let’s talk again in 200 years. So meanwhile we need to navigate practical halokhos: eat turkey bli hallel. Be grateful but cautiousNovember 27, 2021 9:59 pm at 9:59 pm #2034866
Gadol; rav yaakov kaminetzky famously defended chanukah presents, but he was in the minority; most gedolim discourage it as an import from kratzmich. As for the big menoros; chabad hold that it’s persumei nisa to light a menorah in public, but most poskim were not happy with it, as it has no source in halacha. Chabad compares it to a shul, but the difference is that… it’s a shul, and when chazal were mesaken the mitzvah, they made a takanah for a shul as well as the ikar din of ner ish ubayso. What they put in front of their houses (and on their cars) is less questionable, as they’re not making a bracha and they agree it’s just a simana b’alma. I don’t suspect it’s an import from kratzmich, because they’re doing it to be mefarsem haneis and that people who pass by may remember to light menorah etcNovember 27, 2021 10:28 pm at 10:28 pm #2034896
AVD: Thanks for a very informative post. For years,November 28, 2021 4:46 pm at 4:46 pm #2035293
An electric menorah is no good as it does not have a measurement of fuel as oil.
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