Is the goverment responsible to implicate the 7 mitzvos

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  • #1570595

    whitecar
    Participant

    Specificly bein adom lemokam. Obviously murder and theft… is 100%. When it comes to say toiava, or avodah zara, are they responsible to enforce those bein adom lemakom Mitzvos into Law? If so who’s responsible? The authors of the constitution? All memebers of congress and Presidents throughout history who did not fight to pass them into law yet? Or us citizens who have not elected politicians to uphold those moralities?

    #1570794

    Joseph
    Participant

    Yes, every goy and goyishe government is obligated to follow all Sheva Mitzvos Bnei Noach fully and completely, upon pain of death (even for the simple mitzvos such as not stealing or eating from a live animal), as well as is required to implement the 7 mitzvos as their laws and make them fully enforceable in their courts.

    #1570810

    ilovetora
    Participant

    The word you are looking for tzadik is implement.

    #1570843

    akuperma
    Participant

    It is certainly the standard by which we should judge the goyim, but realistically, if we wanted to avoid dealing with a government (or the goyim in general) unless they refrained from perverting justice, spilling innocent blood, stealing and doing the sorts of things we don’t mention on YWN – we would end up having to be total hermits.

    #1570857

    apushatayid
    Participant

    implicate?

    #1570859

    GAON
    Participant

    How do you define “implement”?

    Joseph:
    Where does it say “courts” are bind by implementing “death” as punishment.
    Perhaps” Chiyuv Misah” refers to ‘Beyedei Shomayim”, whereas, courts can implement any punishment they see fit accordingly.

    #1570889

    whitecar
    Participant

    My bad! @mods can you fix it to Implicate

    #1570901

    laskern
    Participant

    The Ramban says that the people of Shchem were responsible for not enforcing Sheva Mitzvos Bnei Noach and therefore deserved death.

    #1570904

    Joseph
    Participant

    Gain, for violating any of the seven mitzvos, the penalty is death. For violating other laws the Goyim set up, the penalty can be something else.

    #1570906

    Avi K
    Participant

    For what crime should they be implicated? If you mean “implement” it is a machloket between Rambam (Hilchot Melachim 9:14) and Ramban (Bereisheet 34:13 at the end).

    #1570943

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    The courts will jave a very hard time enforcing this because they will have to prove first that they are really goyim. Just because he looks and talks like a goy does not mean anything.

    #1570970

    akuperma
    Participant

    If you sentenced to death (and executed) everyone guilty of theft, murder, perversion of justice and that which we can’t speak about — the world would be empty, and we have a kabbalah that Ha-Shem wants the wolrd to be inhabited.

    #1570966

    GAON
    Participant

    las,

    “Deserving” does not = a Chiyuv on B”D or court, it might be as “permitted” if they see fit etc.

    #1570965

    GAON
    Participant

    “Gain, for violating any of the seven mitzvos, the penalty is death”

    And based on who’s psak?
    It is far from simple.

    Ah, Joseph. Joseph if you would only spend a fraction of the time you are here on learning… perhaps you would have understood the very shailah.

    Hint – See חלקת יואב תניינא סימן י”ד, Meshech Chachmah Ki Tezai ובערת הרע מישראל…

    #1570999

    GAON
    Participant

    akup,

    “If you sentenced to death (and executed) everyone guilty of theft, murder, perversion of justice and that which we can’t speak about — the world would be empty”

    That is not an absolute Tayne. For perhaps its the other way around – if you would have implemented those consequences there would be MUCH less crime. Proof is in the countries who have very strict laws and enforcement, they have no crime at all. like in Singapore…

    #1571037

    laskern
    Participant

    Gaon, look at the Chezkuni 34:25 ד”ה ויהרגו כל זכר it looks like they have a chiyuv to create a court to enforce the laws of kidnapping and if they don’t that it becomes our responsibility.

    #1571103

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Singapore has less crime because they don’t rely on health insurance.

    #1571099

    GAON
    Participant

    Las, I agree there is a Mitzvah to est a court and enforce, I am only pointing out regarding Death Penalty on all these…Despite saying ‘Chiyuv Misah’, it can be Beyudie Shomayim or that B”D has a “right” to punish by death.

    I think there is a Meiri in Sanhadrin who explains, that was the Taynos Yaakov had to Shimon and Levi, that although Shechem had a Chiyuv Misah, they did NOT have to do it. They could have been lenient and punished them diff ways. (Otherwise, why was Yaakov upset as per Rambam, that it was a definite Chiyuv to enforce it by death…)

    #1571170

    Radak on “Ohr lagoyim”
    states it is incumbent upon us to bring the world to the 7 mitzvos

    #1571162

    Avi , the machloket is only if Individual citizens carry the obligation
    They all obligate the government (in that case Shechem and his father)

    #1571160

    laskern
    Participant

    Gaon, I think the question that Yaakov Avinu had , do I have to put myself
    in a precarious situation in order to enforce the law that might get me killed and then have to rely on a miracle to get saved?

    #1571474

    GAON
    Participant

    las,

    Asides that although it is a question, but you can not hold that against Shimon and Levi to that extent, as after all they did follow the simple halcacha that was required so the mitzvah should protect them. We do find many hold that you are permitted to put yourself in danger to be mekayom a mitzvah, (as beg. of Pesachim by Shmuel and bedikah).

    In any case, the point is that the Meiri seems to uphold that punishing by death sentencing is not an absolute Chiyov on B”D or anyone else. The mitzvah of ‘establishing courts’ are to enforce it in any way they seem fit, including death penalties.

    #1571505

    laskern
    Participant

    Gaon, Yaakov Avinu held like the Samuel Hanovi that this is a שכיח הזיקא where being harmed is prevalent so the mitzva will not protect you.

    • This reply was modified 5 days, 20 hours ago by  YW Moderator-25.
    • This reply was modified 5 days, 20 hours ago by  laskern.
    #1571513

    laskern
    Participant

    Where is that Meiri? I don’t think that the above Chezkuni upholds that.

    #1571522

    GAON
    Participant

    Las,
    “Yaakov Avinu held like the Samuel Hanovi that this is a שכיח הזיקא”

    True, that will ‘exempt’ you from the Mitzvah, but you are still “permitted” to go ahead and endanger yourself to be mekayom the mitzvah. (Note – Not to confuse with the machloket if you are permitted to Yehrog on any mitzvah other than the three.. as this is not absolute death) Therefore, Yaakov can not hold it against them.

    #1571574

    Avi K
    Participant

    1. According to some poskim capital punishment is only the maximum penalty but a Noahide court may impose a lesser penalty (Chelkat Yoav Tanyana 14; Rabbi J. David Bleich, “Mishpat Mavet Bedenai Benai Noach,” Jubilee Volume in Honor of Rav Joseph D. Soloveitchik 1:193-208 (5754); Rav Aharon Soloveichik, “On Noachides”, Beis Yitzchak 19:335-338 (5747)).

    2. According to Ramban a Noahide judge may refuse to try someone.

    3. According to Ramban, Rabbenu Tam and Rav Hirsch Shimon and Levi were wrong.

    #1571579

    laskern
    Participant

    Gaon, Where do you find lehalacha that for a mitzva, you are allowed to endanger yourself when sofek pikuach nefesh is docheh shabbos even if it is hudcheh having against the mitzva the mitzva of ushmartem es nafshasechen?

    #1571590

    GAON
    Participant

    “Where is that Meiri? ”
    Sanhedrin 57

    “I don’t think that the above Chezkuni upholds that.”

    From what you quoted, I don’t know why it contradicts the above? The issue is NOT if court should enforce the law or not, the point in concern is if the courts are obligated to carry out the punishments of death or not. Or, there a mitzvah as long as there is some form of enforcement.

    #1571706

    Rav Hirsch was major backer of
    the concept that Gov’ts ought to enforce the 7 mitzvos
    And our prime role in this world is to encourage them and bring them forward to it

    Rav Herzog,Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan,
    Rabbi Yoel Schwartz
    have each written extensively
    on this
    Rabbi Yoel Schwartz has explained ,how is it over the centuries this primary role was left undeveloped? He answers we unfortunately weren’t in a position to bring to their goals

    Rav Hirsch similarly compares us for most of those centuries to Yaakov ,just trying to survive.Then we progress to Yitzchak ,and then to Avraham Avinu who guided all the people of the world

    #1571711

    Rav Bulman ,her”father believed passionately in Torah Im Derech Eretz (TIDE), the very ancient Torah understanding that was given more modern and eloquent expression in the 19th century writings of Rav Shamshon Raphael Hirsch. TIDE refers to Torah together with civilization or Torah together with secular pursuits or Torah together with courtesy and humanity. It is hard to define exactly in a short essay but let me talk about one aspect of TIDE.
    We who believe in TIDE believe that one of the reasons that Hashem scattered us among the nations, in addition to the obvious fact that this is a punishment for our sins (foretold in the Torah), is that we are meant to be an ohr lagoyim, a Light to the Nations. We are also a blessing to the nations, also foretold in multiple places in the Torah. It was we Jews who introduced monotheism and morality to the world

    #1574201

    knaidlach
    Participant

    rambam hilchos melachim. a yid is obligated to see to it that goim keep the 7 mitzvos and they keep it because comanded by hashem

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