Is the Outrage Over The Killing of Cecil the Lion Justified?

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  • #1154204

    Sam2
    Participant

    People are crazy. The internet lets all of the crazies gather. The vast majority realize that the killing of the gorilla was unfortunate, but necessary.

    #1154205

    πŸ‘‘RebYidd23
    Participant

    Don’t call him a monkey! Respect his memory. It was not his fault a child entered his cage. Though the right decision was made, it is still sad that the zoo lost its gorilla.

    #1154206

    mw13
    Participant

    newbee, when people manage to work up more outrage over the killing of a lion than over all of the human suffering all over the world, this is where that line of thought progresses to: being upset that an animal was killed to save a human.

    #1154207

    newbee
    Member

    mw13, Im pretty sure if someone had tortured to death a child for a week, and took a photo with its corpse there would have been outrage as well.

    What are you doing to stop all this human suffering personally? Not the most noble quality to dictate what others can and cannot be emotionally upset over. To me, seeing an innocent creature who knew not right from wrong tortured to death by a wealthy dentist is something valid to feel distress over.

    #1154208

    newbee
    Member

    To give you an idea about the frustration. There are 7.4 billion people. At the time the gemara was written there was an estimate 1,000,000 lions. Today, the estimate is 20,000. More and more species and habitats are being destroyed every year. Hashem did not create such worldly wonders to be destroyed, made extinct, and tortured for no reason.

    If you dropped your plate of chicken after a long day or got into a bad fender bender you would probably be more upset over that than the human suffering you mentioned. So maybe we shouldn’t judge others on what and what not they can be upset over.

    #1154209

    147
    Participant

    Is it fare that when you desecrate Shabbos or eat leaven on Pesach, that the bullock who never sinned should have to die and not the human being A.K.A. the Shabbos desecrator? Is it fare that the goat should be hurled from the mountain on Yom Kippur albeit the goat has never committed a sin instead of some guilty human sinners?

    In haShem’s infinite wisdom, haShem has deemed human life far superior to animal life, and this is just the way haShem wishes/wills it.

    #1154210

    yungerman123
    Participant

    Are people nuts? There is no issur for a goy to kill an animal for sport. Nor is there such an issur even for a Jew, but the Noda B’Yehuda has a famous teshuva where he says that it is not a Jewish thing to do. But if the intent is killing it, it is not even tzaar baalei chaim. The worst offense of the whole thing was perhaps the gezel from their tourism industry, as those lions generate millions in tourism. As a goy, one could suggest that he is in fact chayav misa for gezel, as one of the 7 mitzvos bnei Noach, but the death threats are coming for the wrong reason I suppose.

    #1154211

    mw13
    Participant

    newbee:

    Not the most noble quality to dictate what others can and cannot be emotionally upset over.

    Says the person trying to convince me that I cannot be upset that people value animal life more than human life…

    Listen, if you honestly believe that it’s OK to care more about the life of a lion or of a gorilla than the life of a human, or that the sufferings of the two groups is somehow morally comparable, we clearly do not share enough common assumptions to be able to have an intellectual conversation.

    #1154212

    newbee
    Member

    “Says the person trying to convince me that I cannot be upset that people value animal life more than human life…”

    False, you can be upset over whatever you want. But here you are preaching to everyone else what NOT to be upset over. Saying its wrong to be upset over this.

    #1154213

    newbee
    Member

    I guess everyone who has a family pet dog should kill it and send its meat to African children. All that money spent at the vet could have fed Chinese families. All the money spent on dog food could have gone to single mothers in India.

    #1154214

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    RebYidd23,

    Don’t call him a monkey! Respect his memory.

    His memory? This seems as silly to me as the “mourners” bemoaning how the gorilla had just “celebrated” his 17th birthday. Really? He celebrated? I doubt the gorilla knew or cared that it was his birthday. So-called animal lovers anthropomorphize animals to absurd extents. And sometimes it is even harmful to animals. For example, most dog lovers hug their dogs, but most dogs do not like to be hugged, and exhibit non-verbal signs of stress. Hugging is a human way to show love, not a dog way. A more extreme example is the people who “rescued” a baby bison in 50-degree weather because “it was cold”, and the bison subsequently had to be put down because its herd rejected him.

    Though the right decision was made, it is still sad that the zoo lost its gorilla.

    Agreed.

    #1154215

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    newbee,

    Im pretty sure if someone had tortured to death a child for a week, and took a photo with its corpse there would have been outrage as well.

    If you are attempting this as a comparison to the killing of Cecil the lion, well, that is just sick. Not to mention inaccurate.

    #1154216

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    It was the Parents fault for allowing the kid to climb the fence. The gorilla didnt climb the fence to the humans, the humans climbed the fence for a “Photo Shot”

    That being said it was a dangerous situation and I dont understand why the gorilla could not just have been tranquilzed

    #1154217

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    ZD,

    If they had to shoot the gorilla because it was a danger to the child, then obviously it was something immediate. Therefore an immediate solution was required. A tranquilizer dart does not have immediate effect, contrary to what you may think.

    The police explained this.

    #1154218

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I used to be ambivalent about hunting. I didn’t really get killing animals for fun, but it didn’t seem like such a big deal either.

    Now I’ve changed my mind. As this story shows, liberals are a danger to all humanity. You should davka hunt to keep it clear that human life and needs are more important.

    Zdad, don’t be ridiculous. It was a 4 year old kid who obviously wasn’t allowed on purpose to be seriously injured and almost killed. If you need a tranquilizer from this story, by all means go and take one.

    #1154219

    Hunting does not save human life, nor is it a human need. It is, in fact generally frowned upon in Yiddishkeit; there’s a famous Noda BiYehudah on this.

    Hunting give the animal rights wackos ammunition against the normal uses of animals, so we should be against it.

    #1154220

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    The lion was not hunting for food, It wasnt even hunting for sport. It was hunting for the thrill of killing a lion.

    Its one thing to go into the woods and hunt a deer and eat it, the lion was basically going into a cage and shooting it as the lion was basically trapped and couldnt escape

    #1154221

    newbee
    Member

    by Rabbi Howard Jachter

    In Teshuvot Yechaveh Daat (3:66), Rav Ovadia Yosef discusses the Halachic propriety of attending a bullfight and visiting a zoo. Although the first question appears obscure and the answer to the second question seems obvious, this Teshuva teaches vital lessons regarding our evaluation of cultural activities of the non-Jewish world. This insightful Teshuva has many other Halachic and Hashkafic (relating to Jewish Thought) implications that we shall elucidate in this essay.

    Bullfighting

    Similarly, the Ohr Hachaim Hakadosh (Vayikra 17:11) asserts that we have no right to kill an animal needlessly. This, he writes, explains the seemingly odd requirement of the Mishna (Sanhedrin 2a) to convene a panel of twenty-three judges to determine if an animal deserves to be put to death. Indeed, the Rama (Darchei Moshe Orach Chaim 316:2) writes that one who hunts with dogs will not participate in the feast of the Livyatan upon the arrival of the Mashiach.

    #1154222

    mw13
    Participant

    newbee:

    False, you can be upset over whatever you want. But here you are preaching to everyone else what NOT to be upset over. Saying its wrong to be upset over this.

    That distinction is ridiculous, and I think you know it. (You are “preaching” to me about what not to get upset over as well.)

    But the truth is, I don’t particularly car what you think of my intentions. If it makes you feel better to cast aspersions on them, go for it.

    DY:

    Hunting give the animal rights wackos ammunition against the normal uses of animals, so we should be against it.

    Just the opposite – the animal rights wackos will always be on a crusade against something. If hunting was outlawed, they’d just have more time and energy to dedicate towards their fight against shechitah, among other things. Just because of that, we should support the right to go hunting.

    #1154223

    147
    Participant

    If this gorilla had not been shot and hence G-d forbid would have mawed & killed this boy, in all likelihood, they would have ended up euthanizing this gorilla, just like this startled dog who killed a 3 days old baby, ended up being euthanized.

    #1154224

    newbee
    Member

    Just to be clear, I agree if there was even a small chance the gorilla would have killed the boy they should kill the gorilla.

    I would only be against it if it was “policy” to kill the gorilla even when no danger existed for PR or legal reasons. But this case looks legit.

    This gorilla case and the lion are totally not comparable.

    #1154225

    newbee
    Member

    “You are “preaching” to me about what not to get upset over as well”

    Bullet proof “logic” right there.

    #1154226

    we should support the right to go hunting

    I’m not supporting the right to do something immoral.

    #1154227

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    There is a difference to go hunting for food and hunting for the sake of the thrill of killing a vicious animal

    #1154228

    Yes, I’m talking about hunting for sport.

    #1154229

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I am not even talking about hunting for sport. I am talking about hunting for the thrill of killing an animal

    Hunting for sport is tracking an animal for 2-3 days living on the land and then killing the animal

    Hunting for the thrill is putting a GPS transmitter on the animal so you know exactly where it is and then killing it in a few hours .

    The dentist did the latter, not the former

    #1154230

    newbee
    Member

    Compare this- popa_bar_abba: ” I didn’t really get killing animals for fun, but it didn’t seem like such a big deal either….. You should davka hunt”

    #1154231

    newbee
    Member

    “Hunting for the thrill is putting a GPS transmitter on the animal so you know exactly where it is and then killing it in a few hours.”

    Disgusting. This is how people are capable of doing the most horrific things. Its built into their nature to do evil. And this is the start of the desensitization process.

    I disagree with you in the sense that both types of hunting are for the “thrill” even hunting for sport. Only the latter is a worse form of it. You can perfectly enjoy nature without hunting for sport.

    #1154232

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    DY,

    The Noda Biyehuda’s teshuva applies as sheva mitzvos bnei noach also? I’d assume not.

    So does it make sense to advocate policy for the country based on halachos applicable to yidden?

    This is why I thin abortion should be treated as murder. Because in sheva mitzvos it is, and I don’t think the halacha for us should determine policy.

    #1154233

    newbee
    Member

    Rav Ovadia asserts that even non-Jews are forbidden to conduct bullfights. However, one may ask that a specific prohibition to conduct bullfights does not appear on the list of the Seven Noachide Laws that the Torah obligates all mankind to abide by.

    Rav Yehuda Amital (in a lecture at Yeshivat Har Etzion) answers that we see that the Torah expects and demands every human being to behave decently. Moreover, the Torah demands every human being to refrain from engaging in immoral activities, even if an activity is not formally prohibited by the Noachide code. Failure to do so will result in divine retribution.

    #1154234

    newbee
    Member
    #1154235

    Popa:

    The Noda B’Yehuda says it’s the wrong thing the do even if it’s not technically assur.

    Yes, I assume the concept applies to B’nei Noach, and to our support of it being done, even by B’nei Noach.

    I’m not walking around with a sign protesting against hunting, I’m just not making a shittah out if supporting it.

    Here’s the N”B:

    http://beta.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14662&st=&pgnum=100&hilite=

    #1154236

    Sam2
    Participant

    Popa: Why is it any less improper for Goyim to train themselves to be Achzarim than it is for Jews? Neither is Assur. Both are bad.

    #1154237

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    As a side note, bullfights are falling into disfavor, they are already banned in Catalon, Spain (Barcelona) and only surivive in other parts of Spain because the government subidizes it for the tourists. Both the locals and most of the tourists find it barbaric so its likely the subsidies will end eventually

    #1154238

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    DY, Sam,

    If it was an actual issur, it wouldn’t apply to bnei noach. Now that it’s just a good hargasha, you think it does?

    Should bnei noach do shiluach haken?

    Should bnei noach keep shabbos to be makir that Hashem created the world in 6 days?

    #1154239

    Sam2
    Participant

    PBA: Fakhert. If it’s a Mitzvah, it’s something Meyuchad to us that may or may not have an attached message. If it’s just about Middos Tovos, then it should be universal. Again, why should Goyim not have good Middos also?

    #1154240

    ??? ?? ???? ?? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ???????

    I don’t support ???????.

    #1154241

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    ??? ?? ???? ?? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ???????

    I don’t support ???????.

    The guides make their parnassah from it. If people stop hunting, they will lose their parnassah and more kids in Africa will be hungrier.

    So maybe the Americans going to hunt there don’t have that intention, but perhaps you should think of it when advocating against them?

    #1154242

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    PBA: Fakhert. If it’s a Mitzvah, it’s something Meyuchad to us that may or may not have an attached message. If it’s just about Middos Tovos, then it should be universal. Again, why should Goyim not have good Middos also?

    I agree with the notion. I’m just having a hard time wrapping my head around what the rules are.

    I think goyim should have middos tovos. The gemara praises certain goyim who had good middos and says they were rewarded.

    If we’d be talking about being nice to people directly, I think I’d certainly agree that it’s important. But we’re really talking about doing things that develop your middos sensitives, which is really what the entire corpus of the 613 is about. So again, do you think it is appropriate for a goy to do shiluach haken?

    I see you’re responded to that if it’s an actual mitzva then it’s meyuchad to us, but I don’t get that too well.

    #1154243

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    newbee,

    I think you and I are on the same page with regards to the incident with the gorilla and young child at the zoo. As far as the dentist and the lion, I think that what the dentist did was wrong and was a crime, so some sort of penalty, e.g., fines, revocation of hunting license, etc. would be appropriate. What seems to have prompted this thread, however, was the absolutely insane reaction to the lion story, and now the child and gorilla story. What are your thoughts on that? Does the dentist deserve death threats and hanging? Should the child’s mother be tarred and feathered?

    #1154244

    So maybe the Americans going to hunt there don’t have that intention, but perhaps you should think of it when advocating against them?

    Let me get this straight – you want me to support ??????? because people make a living from ??????? Maybe we should support Maharats because the janitors in the Maharat Institute make a living from it?

    But we’re really talking about doing things that develop your middos sensitives, which is really what the entire corpus of the 613 is about. So again, do you think it is appropriate for a goy to do shiluach haken?

    ????? ?”?

    ?? ?? ???? ????? ?????…?????? ????

    ?? ?? ???? ????? ????? ??? ????

    ??? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ?? ????? ???? ??? ????? ????? ??? ?????..

    #1154245

    Sam2
    Participant

    PBA: What can I say? I (sort of) disagree with your contention that the 613 are inculcating Middos Tovos. They are because HKBH commanded us to, and whatever Middos Tovos come out of those are tangential. If one does Shiluach HaKen without learning Rachmanus, he has not missed the point. (This is by Adam L’Makoms. It’s a Machlokes whether the same principle holds for Adam L’Chaveiros.) Mah She’ein Kein by a Goy. For a Goy, it’s only having the Middos that matter. If he can learn it without doing any of the Mitzvos he is not obligated in, great. Because all he has to do is be a good person. But practicing Achzariyus is still bad for him and will not help him get to that point of being a good person. It might not be Assur. But it’s just not a good idea. Same with the Jew practicing non-Assur ways of Achzariyus.

    #1154246

    Joseph
    Participant

    Avram, although I believe hunting for sport ought to be a crime, the reality is the dentist was within the law in his African hunting endeavor.

    #1154247

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Let me get this straight – you want me to support ??????? because people make a living from ??????? Maybe we should support Maharats because the janitors in the Maharat Institute make a living from it?

    Yes. And at least don’t advocate against.

    #1154248

    No, I will continue to advocate against Maharats.

    #1154249

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    ????? ?”?

    ?? ?? ???? ????? ?????…?????? ????

    ?? ?? ???? ????? ????? ??? ????

    ??? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ?? ????? ???? ??? ????? ????? ??? ?????..

    I’m not sure what that means, but I am fairly sure that it is fair to say that Hashem made the mitzva of shiluach haken in part so that we develop our middah of rachamim.

    Perhaps the gemara is saying that it isn’t that Hashem is being meracheim on the birds.

    #1154250

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    The dentist was within the law at the time, however the law has been changed.the US has the right to limit your passport use and ban certain activities done in a foriegn country that is abhorent in this country. Certain kinds of tourism are banned from going to Thailand for even though its legal there. US citizens on a US passport cannot do them.

    They changed to law to ban travel for certain kinds of hunting

    #1154251

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Joseph,

    the reality is the dentist was within the law in his African hunting endeavor

    True, but I think the organizers of his hunt were ultimately charged with criminal acts.

    #1154252

    Joseph
    Participant

    I think those charges were dismissed once it was ascertained they indeed filed the correct paperwork for the hunt. (It was likely filed in the first place in response to the overseas public reaction. Domestically the people didn’t care since they have too many lions roaming around [the reason the country actually invites foreigners to hunt] and were happy to have one less. Overseas they reacted as they did since this was a popular tourist animal with a name that many folks got attached to almost like a pet. In Africa they are a lot more concerned with feeding people and maintaining the public health than protecting wild lions.) In any event, that wasn’t an infraction by the dentist.

    #1154253

    I’m fairly sure that it’s fair to say that the gemara says it’s not fair to say that.

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