August 28, 2017 8:18 am at 8:18 am #1348214kitovParticipant
Is the shidduch crises an excuse for Orthodox Jewish girls to put off marriage and instead go to college or find a good job ?August 28, 2017 9:31 am at 9:31 am #1348323
Au contraire. Orthodox Jewish girls putting off marriage and instead going to college is the shidduch crisis.August 28, 2017 10:25 am at 10:25 am #1348361akupermaParticipant
1. Every single person has a shidduch crisis until they get married. It has always been that way, and will always been that way. If a single person isn’t having a shidduch crisis, then we need to worry that something is wrong.
2. Adam ha-Rishon really had a serious shidduch crisis, and Ha-Shem had to take direct action to resolve. Since then, shidduch crisis seem to resolve themselves with just a little “hashacha pratis”.
3. If we truely had a shidduch crisis, schools would be closing due to lack of students, and schools would be cutting tuition out of desparation to find students. Obstetricians and Pediatricians would be looking to change specialties to something with more patients. Frum stores selling children’s clothing would be shuttered. Shuls would be quiet and empty without the noise of little children.
4. Especially since the “Great Recession”, it would be logical if many young people were more concerned about getting a good economic base before starting a family. That always happens after economic crisis, and not just to Jews.
5. One should remember that due to radical declines in infant and maternal mortality, and extended life expectancies, there is less of a rush to get married. Not too long ago, childbirth-related causes were the leading cause of death for women, most children died before adulthood, and few people survived to their 60s.August 28, 2017 10:46 am at 10:46 am #1348432WinnieThePoohParticipant
I doubt that girls are putting off dating/marriage so that they can go to college and/or get a job, it can and has been done simultaneously for several decades already. In fact, many Orthodox girls go to college or find a good job because they are realistic- they want to marry and support a kollel husband, and they are doing their hishtadlus towards that end. The 20/21 year old studying OT in Touro is not the cause of the shidduch crisis. Imagine how much worse it would be for older singles, and in fact any single over seminary age, if they just sat home with their lives on hold as they waited until they got married, maybe having a shidduch come up once every month or two.
Besides, if you hold from the age gap theory, if they are pushing off marriage until they get their degrees and good jobs (which I really don’t think they are) then they are narrowing the age gap and solving the shidduch crisis!August 28, 2017 11:47 am at 11:47 am #1348454
Winnie: It is unquestionable that girls who choose to delay their shidduch process in order to complete a higher education (or for any reason, for that matter), face a graver risk of being left without a chair when the shidduch music stops, considering the real phenomenon of their being more girls than boys in the shidduch parsha. Girls who choose to marry younger (18-21) clearly reduce their risk of getting caught up in the shidduch crisis.August 28, 2017 12:20 pm at 12:20 pm #1348476
I agree with most of what WTP wrote.
I would also add that I think that nowadays (shidduch crisis or not), it makes sense for many girls (who are looking for learning boys) to wait a bit before starting shidduchim.
Since the “ol parnassah” will fall on the girls, many of them need some time to either go to college or get training in some kind of career. Even if a girl is not going to go to college (whether for hashkafic or other reasons), she may need time to figure out what she is going to do, and to get some training and/or start working in her field.
“Waiting a bit” can mean a year or two after seminary. That means they will be approximately 20 when they get married. That is not so old, and that year can be crucial. Some girls finish their BA and/or MA in that year, and others have a chance to figure out what they want to do and to start working.
In Eretz Yisrael, the girls go to school for two years after high school. During those two years, they have a “major”, receive some type of certification, and obtain a means of parnassah. Most of the girls do not start shidduchim before Pesach of the second year. (I know that we have argued about that in the past, WTP, but I have a friend with 10 daughters who were, are, or will be in the Yashan, and that is what they told me, and the Yashan is the largest and most classic BY in EY).August 28, 2017 12:23 pm at 12:23 pm #1348488
Also regarding the connection between the “shidduch crisis” and girls’ going to school/starting careers, I have noticed the following: From the limited numbers of shidduch-age girls/boys that I know in the US, I have seen that many girls do not end up getting married until they are 2 or 3 years out of seminary, despite their best attempts to get married as soon as they are back from seminary, as they seem to think they are supposed to do.
I wonder if this is precisely because the boys only start shidduchim at around 23 so their “besherts” do not start shidduchim until 2-4 years after they do (since many girls end up marrying boys who are only 0-3 years older than them).
I have often thought, as WTP mentioned, that perhaps the “solution” to the “age-gap theory” is that the girls should start shidduchim later.
I think that the main reason for the “shidduch crisis’ is that people call it a “crisis” if a girl is not married by 20. It doesn’t have to be a crisis, and it wouldn’t be a crisis, if girls didn’t feel that they had to get married as soon as they get back from seminary.
It would probably put a lot less pressure on them if they didn’t feel that way.August 28, 2017 12:37 pm at 12:37 pm #1348529iacisrmmaParticipant
LU: I agree with you that it is not a crisis for girls who are 22 or younger and not yet married. I am also not in agreement with the new initiative that boys should start dating earlier (21 and not 23). Many bochurim are now going to EY after 2 – 3 years after graduating form Mesivta whichm eans that they will be in EY when they are 21 and 22. I also do not agree that when someone is in EY for two or three years and then come back and go to BMG that they have to be in the “freezer”.August 28, 2017 12:47 pm at 12:47 pm #1348542
“Since the “ol parnassah” will fall on the girls…”
I’d like to add, or her parents, or a combination of the 2, it is prudent for the girl, or her parents to make sure there is an ability to shoulder this “ol”. This is the reality. There is only so much an uneducated, untrained person will make, and often it is not enough to support themselves, let alone a spouse and several children. there are also only so many jobs available for uneducated, untrained people. There is only so much demand in the job market for a 22 year old who can rattle off every Ramban in the 3rd perek of Sefer Melachim, and the market is flooded with such girls.August 28, 2017 12:47 pm at 12:47 pm #1348546
1) Going to college reduces a girl’s ruchniyos outlook on life.
2) Even without going to college, the longer a girl waits to get married after Beis Yaakov her level of ruchniyos deteriorates.August 28, 2017 12:47 pm at 12:47 pm #1348548
“I also do not agree that when someone is in EY for two or three years and then come back and go to BMG that they have to be in the “freezer”. ”
Perhaps you would if you knew what things were like in the 80s and early 90s. My chevra used to refer to BMG as the worlds largest shteeble.August 28, 2017 1:03 pm at 1:03 pm #1348560
Several posters’ (in this thread and others) voiced variations of Joe’s theme that “going to college somehow reduces a girl’s ruchniyos outlook on life…”. Not sure how to respond to such a misogynistic allegation other than to note that bochurim are equally (if not more) susceptible to “worldly” influences once they step outside the narrow yeshiva/kollel world they have evolved from….in fact, girls attending college to be able to assure a parnassah for themselves and a prospective choson probably have greater maturity and more discipline to focus on what they are there for (i.e. obtaining job skills) and less on the more secular, mundane or social aspects of college life that Joe worries will adversely affect her ruchnioyosAugust 28, 2017 1:11 pm at 1:11 pm #1348574
GH: Men are created by design from our Creator to go outside in the world whereas women are created by our Creator to mostly be at home and not outside in the wide world.August 28, 2017 1:11 pm at 1:11 pm #1348575
Gadolhadorah, women are more susceptible to the toxic ideology of feminism that will tell them to pursue a career instead of children.August 28, 2017 1:11 pm at 1:11 pm #1348579iacisrmmaParticipant
apushitayid: My son was in Lakewood and avoided the freezer by starting to date before the zman started. As per BMG rules he was allowed to continue dating her and B”H the shidduch came to fruition.August 28, 2017 2:07 pm at 2:07 pm #1348595
Joseph wrote: :1) Going to college reduces a girl’s ruchniyos outlook on life.
2) Even without going to college, the longer a girl waits to get married after Beis Yaakov her level of ruchniyos deteriorates.:
Both of these points are quite comical, and neither have a basis in reality.
Firstly, we are reading this with the need to assume that Joseph knows exactly what “ruchniyos outlook on life” means. This phrase, at the very least, is vague, even to the writer. It is virtual gibberish to the reader.
Secondly, there is a serious nature vs. nurture issue here. And it is magnified ever so much more by the role of home learning versus college learning. I suggest that the truly frum, “ruchniyos” driven girl will be hardly impacted by college life. Now, in what way does college education diminish one’s outlook on life? By establishing parnosoh so that one does not need to be dependent on parents or handouts?
Thirdly, the amount of time between graduating Bais Yaakov until getting married is purported to cause a decrease in “ruchniyos outlook on life”. How does that work? Beginning with the hypothesis that we all know what that puzzling phrase means, how does time work against it?
Joseph – you have an agenda. Sometimes it is easy to recognize from your posts. I’m not sure here what you are pushing. Should we force a girl to marry because of her birthdate or the date she graduated Bais Yaakov? What if that shidduch is not appropriate for any of many reasons? Are you going to police her thoughts that she should sentence herself to a life of unpredictable challenge because it is now a full year since she graduated? That would create a reverse shidduch crisis, where shidduchim happen, but are doomed because they were made out of technicality instead of any of the issues that matter. That would create an even greater chaos of divorces, agunos, and the rest of that can or worms.
What is the agenda?August 28, 2017 2:12 pm at 2:12 pm #1348597ColumbiaGrad17Participant
Women who wish to be responsible by pursuing a career and education, versus being burdened with the responsibility of children at a ridiculously young age? I can only hope that such a trend continues in the Jewish community.
I will only approve this post with the disclaimer that your referencing children as burdens is offensive and wrong.August 28, 2017 2:12 pm at 2:12 pm #1348594
GH – While everything you wrote may very well be true, it in no way disproves the assertion that college has a negative affect on a girl’s Ruchniyus.
Before you posted, Joe had not written that college was worse for girls than for boys. He simply stated that college is bad for girls, which is true (although it doesn’t necessarily follow that no girls should attend college).
In any case, why are we making a comparison? Whether it’s worse for girls or for boys, the fact is that it’s bad for both and is something that should be avoided if possible.
Of course, there are many factors to consider, and if someone does feel that she must marry a guy who is learning, while she should still try to avoid college if possible, that is not a realistic option for everyone.
Not everyone can be a teacher or Ganenet, so some girls may need to go to college if they want to support their husbands in Kollel. And there are Rabbanim who give heteirim for girls to go to college in certain cases, although I think that all Rabbanim would agree that it is a b’dieved and if one can avoid it, she/he should.August 28, 2017 2:13 pm at 2:13 pm #1348596
Personally, I don’t know if everyone should assume that it is worthwhile to go to college and go to work (instead of being home with her kids) in order to have a husband in Kollel.
It is possible that it is, and it is possible that it’s not. There is what to be considered on both sides. In my original posts, I was referring to a portion of the population who has already established that it is necessary for their husbands to learn full-time (and they may very well be right – I wasn’t getting into that one way or another).August 28, 2017 2:13 pm at 2:13 pm #1348598
When making a decision about going to college or not, I think it is also important to think about which job path will involve more/less Ruchniyus.
While it’s better to avoid college, sometimes the jobs that don’t involve college can be worse Ruchniyus-wise than those that do require college.
For example, being a special education teacher or a speech therapist require college and being a secretary or a computer programmer do not, but once they start working, the special ed teacher and the speech therapist are more likely to be in a more Ruchniyus environment.August 28, 2017 2:14 pm at 2:14 pm #1348584
Iacisrmma: “LU: I agree with you that it is not a crisis for girls who are 22 or younger and not yet married.”
Thanks for the confirmation!
” I am also not in agreement with the new initiative that boys should start dating earlier (21 and not 23). Many bochurim are now going to EY after 2 – 3 years after graduating form Mesivta whichm eans that they will be in EY when they are 21 and 22.”
Personally, I don’t feel qualified to have an opinion on the topic. What I do think is that it’s something for the Roshei Yeshiva to decide and not those who are trying to “solve” the shidduch crisis.
The age that boys go to EY and the age that they should start shidduchim must be based primarily (if not only) on what is best for their learning, their Ruchniyus growth, and their chances of having a successful marriage.
The Roshei Yeshiva are the ones who are most qualified to determine that. My impression is that many of them agree with you, Iacisrmma.August 28, 2017 2:18 pm at 2:18 pm #1348604
“he was allowed to continue dating her”
sure, but, he could not start with someone else.August 28, 2017 2:21 pm at 2:21 pm #1348607
There are so many young frum women today who successfully have navigated marriage, family and careers that its hard to know where to begin to respond to your somewhat backward looking philosophy. Women should not be criticized for choosing a career path involving a graduate degree beyond college any more than those who simply choose to get married w/o any higher education or career skills. However, too much emphasis is placed on rushing to finding a husband have babies and making girls who haven’t married by their early 20s feel like damaged goods.August 28, 2017 2:23 pm at 2:23 pm #1348611
Joseph wrote: “GH: Men are created by design from our Creator to go outside in the world whereas women are created by our Creator to mostly be at home and not outside in the wide world.”
RebYidd23 wrote: “Gadolhadorah, women are more susceptible to the toxic ideology of feminism that will tell them to pursue a career instead of children.”
There is something to these responses. כל כבודה בת מלך פנימה is not a flowery, social nicety, but a true guide for a spiritual life based on the fulfillment of one’s תפקיד for being sent to reside in this world. But getting carried away with this to the extreme is equally problematic. There have always been women who fulfilled a position for the Klal that was not just crucial, but praised by the Torah. We can see open reference to מרים הנביאה, רבקה אמנו, רחל אמנו, דבורה הנביאה, and אסתר המלכה. Each of these had specific reasons to do things outside the home when it was the proper time. Neither you nor I are the ones to say whether any particular girl belongs in the home or doing something that includes walking out of her home.
There is a reality here. Women will leave the four walls of their home to shop, and many to work. The current zeitgeist is that women provide the income so that their husbands can stay glued to their seat in kollel. While I am not a proponent of this indiscriminate filling of kollelim, the reality is that the dependency (for better or worse) on women’s working is here to stay. If you advocate that women should not have careers, prepare to battle the kollel system. I wish I could reduce kollel lifestyle by a huge percent, but am aware that this animal is greater than my ability to control it.
Lastly, the pursuit of career is not in lieu of children. Such an accusation is baseless. I know many families in which the wife/mother works and raises children, even large families. You sound as if you know the fertility issues of career women, and I demand you prove this if you want to continue the discussion with that premise.
What is toxic about feminism is that it ignores the G-d created differences between men and women. That some women work is not feminism. It is about necessity.August 28, 2017 2:41 pm at 2:41 pm #1348678
There is a culture of putting careers in the place of children.August 28, 2017 2:53 pm at 2:53 pm #1348763
“There is a culture of putting careers in the place of children. ”
Sure there is. Just not among the females under discussion here. The females under discussion here would like very much for their husbands to stay in the beis medrash and out of necessity to feed and clothe their husband and children leave the safety of their home and enter the workforce.August 28, 2017 3:06 pm at 3:06 pm #1348769
This is also not a flowery phrase.
הוי לי לאנתו כדת משה וישראל ואנא אפלח ואוקיר ואיזון ואפרנס יתיכי ליכי כהלכות גוברין יהודאין דפלחין ומוקרין וזנין ומפרנסין לנשיהון
That some women are mochel this obligation, and agree to shoulder the burden themselves so their husband can stay in the beis medrash says volumes about those women. They should be praised, not made to feel guilty if they takes steps to properly shoulder the burden they accepted.August 28, 2017 3:55 pm at 3:55 pm #1348839
“Joseph wrote: :1) Going to college reduces a girl’s ruchniyos outlook on life.
2) Even without going to college, the longer a girl waits to get married after Beis Yaakov her level of ruchniyos deteriorates.:
Both of these points are quite comical, and neither have a basis in reality.”
I have to strongly disagree. The first statement is certainly true. I don’t think that there any Gedolim who would say that college is not problematic Ruchniyus-wise.
The idea that one is affected by his environment is something that has many sources and it’s a very basic concept in Judaism.
There is a famous Rashi somewhere in the Chumash that gives a mashal of someone who goes into a place with a bad smell. When he leaves, he will smell badly no matter what. No matter what background a person is from and no matter how strong he/she is, the environment has an automatic effect.
In fact, the greater someone is, the more sensitive he/she is to his environment. The Gedolim are much more careful than others are about what they allow themselves to be exposed to because they understand the effect it has upon him.
I’m not saying that no girl should go to college, but whichever choice she makes, it is crucial that she recognize that there are dangers to going to college and that it is something that it is better to avoid. But as with most things in life, each choice has chesronos and maalos, and one has to weigh all the factors before making a decision.
We don’t live in a perfect world, and we have to make choices. But one must be aware of the chesronos involved with his choice, especially if the chisaron involves being subject to non-Torah influences. The more she is aware of it, the better chance she has of not being influenced, if she does choose that path.
Additionally, she may come to realize that she does not need that particular path.August 28, 2017 4:02 pm at 4:02 pm #1348765WinnieThePoohParticipant
people are forgetting that there are so many frum programs today for women to attend, giving full BAs, or training in a particular field, there are online programs, so they can totally avoid the dangers of a liberal college campus. Yes certain professions will require graduate schools and more exposure, but in general these programs are very focused. A mature girl with a strong seminary background who knows what she believes in and why she is doing what she is doing should be ok- I have seen many girls do this and come out just fine, even stronger once their beliefs leave theory and are put into practice. For a girl who cannot handle this, then there are many professions and training programs that she can take and avoid exposure to a college campus at all. So getting a degree/professional training does not have to have any impact on a girl’s ruchniyus. And getting a degree and a decent job does not mean a girl is a feminist whose only goal is a career.
As to Joseph’s second point about the longer a girl waits, the more her ruchniyos drops- I would disagree. Women are inherently spiritual, even without formal learning in a school or seminary. From all the older single girls that I have known, I have seen tremendous growth in them spiritually as the years advance- in emuna, tefilla, chessed, for example. the 18/19 year old straight out of seminary can’t even hold a candle to these amazing women.August 28, 2017 5:52 pm at 5:52 pm #1349368
It is comical that in the 21st century, t is predominantly men who are postulating on what is good for women’s spiritual, physical and economic well being. Clearly, looking around at the state of affairs in many areas of the tzibur, they have been doing a great job. Perhaps wake up and realize that a young woman is no more susceptible to the yetzer horah than a man ( and biologically probably less so). As one of the other posters noted, a young woman with strong hashkafah and upbriinging can find many opportunities for pursuing her edcuation and career without compromising her yiddeshkeit, If she chooses to delay starting a family for several years, thats probably a net positive for the future success of that family since she will be able to contribute to their economic and educational well being.August 28, 2017 6:13 pm at 6:13 pm #1349676
LU: You wrote “I’m not saying that no girl should go to college, but whichever choice she makes, it is crucial that she recognize that there are dangers to going to college and that it is something that it is better to avoid. But as with most things in life, each choice has chesronos and maalos, and one has to weigh all the factors before making a decision.”
Deciding to enter college is a major decision, and carries benefits and risks. Agreed. Who makes that decision? Is the individual responding to the seeking of advice someone reciting party line, or is it someone who knows the girl, the school, the subject matter, the environment, etc.? I also hesitate to say that college is better avoided. That assumes a lot, and is not factual. People need to pursue careers based on their assets and liabilities, not the political positions of the Chassidishe, Litvishe, and Yeshivashe spokespeople. That is not a responsible piece of advice, just as it would be incompetent for a doctor to treat someone without having evaluated all the relevant aspects of the patient.
What tells you, or anyone else, that the dangers of walking down Avenue J or M, 16th or 13th Avenues are so much less than going to pursue education on a college campus? The lack of tznius on these streets and others is alarming. From the other end, there are many options to pursue college careers without the need to frequent the campus environments that are truly a challenge.
I still believe the statement about the “ruchniyos outlook on life” is just a phrase that connotes nothing. It omits the level of someone’s true emunoh, and implies a very external, superficial concept of “ruchniyos” that really has little to do with Torah and Mitzvos.
Having said this, I must give a plug for something that has appeared on this site. We are too busy looking for what to “asser”, as if that is the stairway to true Avodas Hashem. Yes, we do have 248 Mitzvos Lo Saaseh, and the plethora of gezairos and takanos to protect us from violating them. But we are obsessed with this subject, to the terrible loss of addressing the real neshomoh of our existence, the emotional connection with HKB”H and our emotions of Ahavas Hashem and Yir’as Hashem. As long as we divert our energy to the persistent search of what to ban, we will have no resources to build up our inner strength to overcome Yetzer Horah.
This statement is broad, deep, and will cause some consternation. Yes, I am taking the wind out of the sails of those askanim looking for what to ban, whose names to place on Kol Koreh’s, and what to herald as the next target of fanatics. Yes, many college campuses are places that a Yid should think twice before entering. But the general topic is only seen as evil when generalizing, and not accounting for the specifics of a particular situation. Additionally, if we are busy bandaiding the public against the terrible yetzer horah that is nurtured by the environment of a college campus, and we are obsessed with banning smartphones (regardless of whether they are filtered), the yetzer horah will simply accommodate and divert his energies to other things. Yes, one can speak the worst of loshon horah on a “kosher” phone. The Bais Hamedrash should be the epitome of holiness, but is home to gaavah, talking during davening, and lots of other behavioral ills. Trying to places patches everywhere the yetzer horah can reside is a never ending battle, and he is the מלך זקן וכסיל that has a lot more experience. College is a certain degree of risk, but it is not the all over evil that requires such broad efforts to insure it is never seen.August 28, 2017 6:31 pm at 6:31 pm #1349668
WTP – while it’s true that attending an online program is very different than a liberal college campus, it also has problems.
First of all, being online is a big problem.
Again, I am not saying that she shouldn’t do it, but she must be aware that she is exposing herself to negative influences.
And yes, when you go outside, you are also exposed to bad influences. It is necessary, so one does it. But you have to be aware of the dangers and avoid them as much as possible.
When you have to go somewhere, you should try to think about the best route to go in order to avoid negative exposure. If you have to travel somewhere that involves going through a neighborhood or taking a bus which will involve negative exposure, you do it, but if you can avoid it, you avoid it.August 28, 2017 7:50 pm at 7:50 pm #1349697
There is a difference between having a job and having a career.August 28, 2017 9:11 pm at 9:11 pm #1349667
Addtional comment to Joseph with respect to his analogizing kiddushin to a “game of musical chairs” where a young woman who pursues advanced education risks being the one “left without a chair” when the music stops…..I cannot think of a more uneducated and false analogy unless that has sadly been your experience, and for that I am sorry. A baas yisroe with strong grounding in daas torah and good midosl who pursues her dreams of having a balanced life including a career and family (and can also make a substantial contribution to the family’s income) will clearly be more attractive shidduch prospect in her 20s than someone with a high school education and little if any earnings potential. I guess it all depends on what you are looking for. For the bochur chained to a shtender and shteiging in kollel 24×7, maybe not but thats probably not what SHE would even consider.August 28, 2017 9:24 pm at 9:24 pm #1349739
GH: In your circles you might be marrying for the money; in Torah families that is not the case.August 29, 2017 3:17 am at 3:17 am #1349934
GH – that is a really negative and inappropriate way to refer to people who are learning Torah all day!August 29, 2017 7:05 am at 7:05 am #1349966
“For the bochur chained to a shtender and shteiging in kollel 24×7, maybe not but thats probably not what SHE would even consider.”
So apparently you agree that going to college affects a girl’s ability to appreciate Limud Torah.
You’ve just proven the point of those who said that going to college affects a girl’s Ruchnius level.August 29, 2017 7:05 am at 7:05 am #1349971
I do agree that the musical chairs analogy is not a good one. Mainly, I think it is very offensive to refer to shidduchim as a “game of musical chairs”.
In addition, one’s decision about going to college should not be based on a fear that there will be no boys left for you because you will be considered second-class. Your decision should be based on what you feel Ratzon Hashem is. It is legitimate to consider whether or not the type of boy you would want to marry would want to go out with you, but that is very different from a fear of “being left without a chair.”August 29, 2017 8:48 am at 8:48 am #1349986
My point in that analogy was regarding someone who specifically delays shidduchim and marriage. Considering the widely acknowledged “age gap” specifically posits that there’s more girls than boys in the shidduch scene and that there aren’t enough boys to marry all the girls, why is the analogy off?August 29, 2017 10:15 am at 10:15 am #1350069
Joe: No, in my family a girl marries for the whole person, including his/her ruchnios, midos, overall intelligence etc. I don’t think anyone in my family is or will ever be deemed “wealthy” Going to college is not a matter of accumulating wealth or material items. Its about learning and experiencing much of what the Ebeshter has created and simultaneously developing the skills and intellect he provided beyond what might arguably be obtained in a beis Yaakov setting. From your postings, it seems your family’s frame of reference is a more narrow criteria of simply whether the kallah is of child bearing age a ready to start to start a family with little, if any concerns about what follows.August 29, 2017 10:41 am at 10:41 am #1350111
Not sure if you realize that there may be some young men and women (who for some reason I cannot personally relate to) do not want to marry and have children. Thats clearly the exception in the frum tzibur and off your radar screen but those numbers are actually rising, albeit based on anecdotal data. My personal objection is the tendency to label those individuals as dysfunctional, damaged goods or whatever since we don’t know (nor should we) why they may have made the decision to defer marriage or simply not to marry.August 29, 2017 10:56 am at 10:56 am #1350117🍫Syag LchochmaParticipant
GH – here’s the thing. You keep addressing Joseph’s points as if they are not only legitimate Torah view points, but with a disdainful tone indicating that you had expected no less, that you see this as the mainstream yeshivish/chareidi/Torah (pick your label) view. It’s been pretty obvious here that few people give credence to his presentations and some have even spoken out about the damage his attitude and expression can do/does to readers. So although you seem to feel that he is representative of your view of chareidim, and you are happy to engage him in arguments about all the things he says that are wrong that you expected from us “black hatters” anyway, you are only giving these views more credibility than they deserve.August 29, 2017 12:46 pm at 12:46 pm #1350163
I don’t see Joe’s views as mainstream even among my yeshivish friends, much less as typical of the MO or frum tzibur in general. If you are saying that Joe is the resident troll and should be ignored, than perhaps I give his rants too much credence from an obviously “leftist” perspective….However, when he keeps pushing the same perspective on seemingly a new thread every few days, and seeks to legitimize an ignorant and hurtful view of young women who c’v havent’ married in their teens, than I will respond since these view have a long-term hurtful impact on so many b’nos yisroel who make their own life choices that include personal growth and education.August 29, 2017 1:57 pm at 1:57 pm #1350347
Gadolhadorah, his constant presence is what makes him the resident troll. Otherwise he’d be a guest troll.August 29, 2017 1:57 pm at 1:57 pm #1350342MDGParticipant
Joseph said, ” In your circles you might be marrying for the money; in Torah families that is not the case.”
My niece went through shidduchim the past few years, looking for a learner. BUT Ein kemach Ein Torah. i.e. she better have money or access to some money for a number of years. So the “idealistic” learners still wanted years (up to 10 – that’s 300k to 500k) of support.
BTW, she got married last year, and they’re in Kollel in E”Y.
Joseph, you have high ideals, but we live in a real world.September 7, 2017 2:34 pm at 2:34 pm #1357848Sheaino Yodeia LisholParticipant
parents use teh kids as pawns trying to elevate their social status. Kids become older singlesSeptember 7, 2017 11:59 pm at 11:59 pm #1358768Sheaino Yodeia LisholParticipant
While shopping tonight for shabas, met a former chaver from my chabura in BMG. Older and still single. Complained that he danced away at friends weddings, only to be discarded and forgotten. How sadSeptember 8, 2017 8:04 am at 8:04 am #1358853YW Moderator-💯ModeratorSeptember 8, 2017 3:53 pm at 3:53 pm #1359166👸Daddysgirl (look at my profile )Participant
Mod 100, +99999999
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