November 7, 2021 8:09 pm at 8:09 pm #2025791
We haven’t heard much about the Shidduch Crisis in a very long time. Is this indicative that the crisis is, Baruch Hashem, over?
Otherwise, in what shape or form does the crisis still continue? And what can be done to end the crisis?November 8, 2021 12:48 am at 12:48 am #2025835
Oh, the crisis is at full throttle. We should do what they did back then at the Kerem Shilo.November 8, 2021 7:42 am at 7:42 am #2025864GadolhadorahParticipant
It formally ended on the third-day of Chol Hamoed Succos.November 8, 2021 10:27 am at 10:27 am #2025930
When there was major publicity regarding the age-gap/gender-imbalance, FFB girls realized that they will need to give in on some things. For example, many single girls who otherwise wouldn’t have dreamed of marrying a divorced guy etc. agreed to give it a try.
This is obviously not a real solution, because now the divorced women have a harder time getting remarried.
It also also likely that the age gap was slightly ameliorated thanks to NASI’s or LIBBY’s efforts. Personally I gave preference, and ultimately married, a girl closer to my age due to the publicity about the issue.
There is also a “Torah B’tahara” initiative. But that isn’t attempting to solve the shidduch crisis but rather the “Shulchan Aruch crisis.”November 8, 2021 11:52 am at 11:52 am #2025973
Are R: Who is LIBBY?
If what you’re saying is accurate (never married single girls marrying divorced guys, etc), the attention brought by the age gap public relations campaign seems to have made the disadvantage girls have in shidduchim even greater.
Can you share what this “Torah B’tahara” initiative is all about and who it is targeting?November 8, 2021 12:39 pm at 12:39 pm #2025999
Maybe it’s spelled Libbi. They are also encouraging boys to start shidduchim at 21. They maintain the website shidduchcrisis.com
Torah B’tahara, if I am spelling it right, is a program which pays Yeshivish bochurim to get married before twenty, in line with the halacha mentioned in Shulchan Aruch. They also pay bochurim to learn the Kuntras Torah B’tahara.November 8, 2021 4:28 pm at 4:28 pm #2026042
I just passed by a sign advertising a Shidduchim crisis asifah in WilliamsburgNovember 8, 2021 4:30 pm at 4:30 pm #2026056akupermaParticipant
If you are married, the crisis is over.
If you are single, the crisis is not over.
No hiddush. It always has been that way. It always will be that way.November 8, 2021 5:22 pm at 5:22 pm #2026073yungermanSParticipant
There is no shidduch crisis. Hashem already sets up every person with their zivvug/shidduch wife to be 40 days before they are even born. Forget about the fact that now were talking they are already approximately 20 years later since born and setup. The question YOU need to ask yourself is if your doing your RUCHNIUS hishtadlus of tefilla and bitachon and Emunah (faith and trust) in Hashem? And not just your gashmius hishtadlus of dating and speaking to shadchanim etc….
Daven directly to Hashem to send you or your child their Shidduch ASAP. Hashem already has them setup for many years since before birth and is just waiting for your call for help and for the right timeNovember 8, 2021 5:25 pm at 5:25 pm #2026075
Avira, what kind of Shidduch Crisis do the Chasidim have? The age gap issue isn’t much of a thing by the Chasidim.November 8, 2021 5:40 pm at 5:40 pm #2026086
yungermanS: The Rambam, who laid out the very principles of our emuna, said that one’s shidduch is based on hishtadlus, not on bashert (See his letter to Rav Ovadiah Hager). He says that every mitzvah requires and is determined by hishtadlus, and getting married is a mitzvah.
Would you be OK with someone who davens that Hashem should send him a succa and teffilin without actually going out and using hishtadlus to obtain those mitzvahs? (See also Pele Yoetz Zivug who says that shidduchim requires “a lot” of hishtadlus and failure to do so may result in one losing his shiddduch).November 8, 2021 9:49 pm at 9:49 pm #2026105
Ujm – I don’t know; I’ve heard that it’s the opposite of what the litvishe velt hasNovember 8, 2021 10:09 pm at 10:09 pm #2026173☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
Avira, what kind of Shidduch Crisis do the Chasidim have? The age gap issue isn’t much of a thing by the Chasidim.
Right. That’s why the issue there is the reverse.November 8, 2021 10:41 pm at 10:41 pm #2026187
The reverse issue by the Chasidim is to a far lesser extent than what the Yeshivish experience in the other direction, from everything I’ve heard and understood on this nekuda.November 9, 2021 8:47 am at 8:47 am #2026240CL18Participant
It never never started shidduch crisis is a hokes!November 9, 2021 8:48 am at 8:48 am #2026245
There is a slight imbalance the other way by the chassidim because slightly more boys are born than girls. As they age, however, the “extra” boys die off (e.g., according to the Israeli census the extra boys are gone by their mid-thirties).
Therefore, imposing an age-gap by chassidim – to ensure that there are an equal number of people ENTERING shidduchim (e.g., 19 year old boys and 18 year old girls) – would result that 35-year-old Almanos and Gerushos would have a harder time finding a shidduch.November 9, 2021 11:53 am at 11:53 am #2026275
I do not understand how age gap contributes to any imbalances. At the end, one boy matches one girl, whatever the age. Some societies, like China. that get rid of girls – post-birth or thanks to new technology pre-birth, have real imbalances with more boys. Historically, wars are the major reason for having less boys and death from childbirth for less girls. There is also migration, such as in certain periods boys are first to move away from villages to cities.
There is also an observation that morals in society are determined by this ratio: society with more boys is more moral. That is, girls have more bargaining power and insist on marriage, etc.
Furthermore, if you want to increase girls bargaining power – you do not insist on boys marrying early. Then, when a girl has a relatively smaller time period when she wants to marry – she has a choice of boys of multiple ages in front of her.
Take a limited-age group, such as a college: freshman girls have most choices, and so do senior boys.November 9, 2021 11:53 am at 11:53 am #2026295Shimon NodelParticipant
Yungerman go back and relearn the gemara. The gemara asks a kasha and answers with הא והא meaning that it is דוחהNovember 9, 2021 12:22 pm at 12:22 pm #2026333
The fact that an age-gap + population grown causes a problem for girls has been documented in many societies (India, for example) and is accepted as fact in many academic publications. This isn’t a chiddush.
However, there are many other factors at play: a) What is the age gap in our community? b) How much of an ameliorating effect is the fact that more boys are born than are girls, c) How many “extra” boys die per year?, d) How many of the extra boys suffer from disabilities that render them, to some extent, “unmarriageable”, e) Is there a greater OTD rate among boys than among girls, f) Do more girls become baalei teshuva than do boys?, g) in general, is it more important for a girl to be married than it is for a boy to be married (i.e., do we prefer a boys shidduch crisis over a girls shidduch crisis). Regarding the last question, the Gemara says that women have greater desire to get married than do men.November 9, 2021 1:48 pm at 1:48 pm #2026404
Are R: You seem to be subtly making some presumptions. A) How can this even be accurately determined? B) Is it a given that in the Jewish community more boys are born? C) Perhaps the Jewish death rate is no different between the genders (the male non-Jewish world suffers from drug overdoses and other ailments rare in the Jewish world) D) Perhaps there are more “unmarriageable” girls than boys? E) Perhaps the greater OTD rare is by girls? F) Perhaps more male BTs than females? G) Boys have a halachic obligation to marry whereas girls do not.November 9, 2021 3:22 pm at 3:22 pm #2026453
Are R, I take it back. With Haredi growth rate of 5% a year, you can indeed have a 20% imbalance if hatanim are 5 years older than kallot. That is indeed significant.
Among other reason, I would suggest rather than 1/0 “OTD” rates, maybe Haredi boys may be more open to marry someone who is slightly less “haredi” than them.November 9, 2021 3:43 pm at 3:43 pm #2026458
ujm: I indeed don’t know the answer to the above questions. I was saying that these are indeed questions which must be explored.
Regarding the obligation of Pru Urvu that only men have, it is actually a machlokes, some arguing that women also have an obligation. Furthermore, the Igras Moshe writes that although each INDIVIDUAL woman doesn’t have an obligation to have children, there is a GENERAL obligation and ratzon hatorah for women in GENERAL to have children (I know this sounds like splitting hairs, but this is what he says). The Torah allowing men to marry multiple wives implies that the Torah prefers that women have a relatively easy time finding a shidduch (Rav Moshe explains that for this reason the Torah permits a sris b’yidei shamayim, so that there shouldn’t be a shidduch crisis by women).
Here are some quotes from secular sources regarding the age gap causing and resulting imbalance (again, this doesn’t necessarily imply that there is a crisis in the Orthodox community):
See, Women of Bangladesh: A Country Profile. United States, UN, 1995, p. 24 (“Bangladeshi women tend to marry men who are five to ten years senior in age, but on account of rapid population growth, the younger cohorts are substantially larger than the older ones resulting in a numerical shortage of eligible bridegrooms . . . parents have difficulties in finding husbands with suitable age gaps for their daughters. These problems have have resulted in delayed marriages and a reduction in the proportions getting married. Another important consequence of the favorable marriage market for men is an increase in divorce, separation and derivation”). See, also, Sautmann, Anja, Partner Search and Demographics: The Marriage Squeeze in India (August 23, 2011) (“When women marry younger than men, growing birth rates and a decline in child mortality lead to a surplus of women in the marriage market . . . to resolve the resulting surplus without women going unmarried, the age gap at marriage must decline”).November 9, 2021 5:48 pm at 5:48 pm #2026464
Does anyone know whether in prewar Europe there was a general age gap? I would tend to assume that both the Choson and Wallah were generally teenagers about the same age.November 9, 2021 5:51 pm at 5:51 pm #2026471
Bangladesh & India had 2+% growth 20 and more years ago, but 1% now, although their age gap may be larger. Israeli growth rate is 1.6% and 5% in Haredi community.
Another possible factor – dropouts from Haredi community among 20yo is 12% (influx 1%) – 5% in Hasidic, 12% among Litvishe and 30% in Sephardi. These are not OTD, mostly people who associate with orthodox in general or traditional. I can’t find numbers but it is possible that more men are leaving than women.
I wonder whether the open market resists a solution: as it is beneficial for a boy to have more choices, so it makes sense for them to wait and have a “stronger hand”.November 9, 2021 9:11 pm at 9:11 pm #2026481
Ari Mandel of Footsteps told me personally that between 2/3 and 3/4 of his members are men.November 9, 2021 9:12 pm at 9:12 pm #2026483
Are R – many seforim hold exactly the opposite, that Shidduchim is the area where you require the least hishtadlus – the brisker rov is quoted as saying so in the 4 vol biography, where he says that rhe reason why we do hishtadlus at all is “far der nerven”November 10, 2021 7:46 am at 7:46 am #2026658
In general, halahca isn’t decided by oral reports of what Gedolim said (see Igros Chazon Ish), especially if didn’t explicitly state that they were expressing their opinion to be accepted “halacha limaaseh.”
Additionally, the general rule is that we follow Rishonim over Achronim. Even those who would follow the Achronim over the Rishonim, that is only if the Achronim are aware of the Rishonim. So if the Brisker Rav wrote: “I am aware that the Rambam held that hishtadlus affects one’s shidduch, but I hold halacha limaaseh that we should not follow the Rambam” it would be one thing. Being that he did not quote the Rambam’s opinion, we have to assume that if the Brisker Rav was aware of the Rambam’s opinion he would have changed his mind regarding this issue.November 10, 2021 8:27 am at 8:27 am #2026687
AreR > between 2/3 and 3/4 of his members are men.
So, maybe his organization is a good place to call for shidduchim for girls? 🙂
so for 12% of Litvish leaving O-, this would be an extra 4% inbalance. I don’t think this rule would apply to the 30% Sefardim, as the number above that I saw quoted, as these are less dramatic cases of parents moving from traditional Sephardi to “haredi” lifestyle, and their children relaxing back to some degree.November 10, 2021 8:27 am at 8:27 am #2026690
I don’t think it is reasonable to assume that Brisker Rov was not aware of the Rambam, unless it was in some obscure Arabic letter from a Genizah.
Furthermore, in the relationship of old texts, I think we hold opposite: if we discover a new text by a Rishon, or by Rabbi Akiva, or by Melech Shlomo, this will not have a definite effect on halakha: one of the reasons we follow a Rishon because it was scrutinized by later generations.
I agree that one should be careful with orally reported opinions. first, they may be incomplete, second, the author did not put it in writing for some reasn, third, related to 2, the author may have intended it to a specific time and person. For example, in this case the Rov is saying it to a Brisker student, so presumably, in his view, the hishtadlus of being a Brisker student is sufficient enough.
I don’t think Rov advocated quitting learning and sitting in a cafe on Ben Yehudah waiting for the shidduch to show up.November 10, 2021 2:10 pm at 2:10 pm #2026834
I don’t think that the Rambam’s letter is from the Geniza (though the Mishnah Berura, unlike the Chazon Ish, does follow kisvei yados). We never assume that a particular Gadol “must” have been aware of the earlier source if he didn’t quote it; otherwise, this klal (i.e., that an Achron who fails to quote an earlier source isn’t followed) would be useless.
The Pele Yoetz, as I have mentioned before, holds that shidduchim requires “a lot” of hishtadlus, even going to another city in order to find a shidduch, and failing to do so can jeopardize one’s shidduch. The Yabia Omer quotes and follows this Pele Yoetz. Even if the Brisker Rav disagreed with the Pele Yoetz, since it is a question of a mitzvah d’oraissa, we must follow the machmirim.
The Brisker Rav is probably following his grandfather’s shitta on bitachon and hishtadlus. However, similar to what I said above, in the Beis Halevi’s lengthy thesis regarding bitachon and hishtadlus, he doesn’t quote the Rambam.November 10, 2021 6:35 pm at 6:35 pm #2026875
Are R: Where do you see a “klal” that an Achron who doesn’t quote an earlier source isn’t followed or that we ignore Achronim if you find a Rishon who says differently?November 10, 2021 6:37 pm at 6:37 pm #2026887
AAQ is right that congrary to Are R, we don’t find poskim overturning psak or inventing their own psak based on rishonim to go against established achronim. Are R also claimed that the MB follows kisvei yad as opposed to the chazon ish. The chazon ish wrote this explicitly, that it is against the belief in hashgocha that Hashem has given raboseinu ha’achronim the correct text of the rishonim. He says whatever rev akiva eiger had is emes, even if we find a different version. He says we can use them to augment our understanding of a sugya and shed light on things, like to answer a kasha on a tosfos, but not to overturn the established halachik decisions. Can you point to a place where the MB says anything different than the above?
Rav moshe feinstein often paskened like some rishonim over, say, the psak of the magen avrohom, but he didn’t do so because it’s better to follow rishonim – he did it because he learned the sugya that way and came out like those rishonim, but there were always lther achronim like him. It wasn’t as if for 500 years we’ve all paskened one way and then rav moshe came and overturned it because of rishonim…no one outside of MO would attempt such a thing (i.e. digging up rishonim to try and defend not covering hair). To their credit, when it comes to shabbos and kashrus, MO seems to follow normal halachik jurisprudence.
What AAQ said amounts to the rationale behind “halacha kebasrai”, that we follow the later opinions because they saw the earlier ones and paskened whichever way despite that.
When you want to know halacha lemaysoh, do you open up a rambam or a mishnah berurah? I should hope it’s the latter.
As for the discussion regarding hishtadlus, it’s not an issue of psak din. Hashkofa matters, while extremely important, are often decided on mesorah, including oral tradition. Actually, I’d argue that of all things, mussar and hashkofa are the most dependant on mesorah, because of not knowing when to apply which aphorism of chazal. Rav hirsh makes this point very well in the mishnah in avos “lo am haaretz chossid”, where he asks why it doesn’t say “tzadik”, since if he is unlearned he can’t even keep basic halacha, let alone be a chossid (who goes beyond the letter lf the law). He answers that we’re talking about someone who learned shas and poskim, but was not meshamesh talmidei chachamim. Chazal call such a person an am haaretz – so halacha he can keeo, and be termed a tzadik, but a chosid he can’t be, because for middos, hashkofa, mussar, etc…you absolutely need shimush to know how to apply daas torah to your life.November 10, 2021 7:48 pm at 7:48 pm #2026920
Here are some sources I found online regarding the Mishna Berurah relying on Kisvei Yados (I know people call it “Kisvei Yad,” but in Mishnaic Hebrew I think we make both words plural, like Batei Kneisios and Batei Medrashos):
ראה ביאור הלכה סימן לב: “והנה כעת שזכינו לאור של האור זרוע הגדול שנדפס בימינו מצאתי וראיתי”; ביאור הלכה סימן מג ד”ה ואוחזן: “ובספר אור זרוע אשר זכינו מקרוב לאורו”; משנה ברורה סימן כז ס”ק ה: “כן מצאתי בא”ז אשר זכינו מקרוב לאורו”; ביאור הלכה סימן תקטו ד”ה דורון: “אבל עכשיו שזכינו לאורו של או”ז הגדול שממנו מקור דברי המרדכי”.
משנה ברורה סימן קסג ס”ק ו: “דגם הר”ח בפירושו על פסחים [שזכינו עתה לאורו] בדף מ”ז כתב בהדיא כן”; ביאור הלכה סימן שיט ד”ה הכפיפה: “הר”ח [שזכינו מקרוב לאורו]”; ביאור הלכה סימן תרכו ד”ה צריך: “והנה כעת זכינו לאורו של רבינו חננאל”; ביאור הלכה סימן תרמח ד”ה מיהו: “ולפי מה שזכינו עתה לאורו של רבינו חננאל שיצא לאור”; שער הציון סימן רמח ס”ק א: “כי ברבנו חננאל שזכינו עתה לאורו כתוב בהדיא”.
ביאור הלכה סימן פח ד”ה וכן: “מצאתי בספר האשכול שזכינו עתה לאורו”.
Regarding the “klal” that we assume an Achron would have changed his mind had he known of the Rishon, see the Maharik quoted in the Hebrew Wikipedia site: Hilchasa Kibasrai.November 10, 2021 8:44 pm at 8:44 pm #2026937
> rambam or a mishnah berurah? I should hope it’s the latter.
My limited understanding is that MB is trying to develop a comprehensive halakha harmonizing multiple sources, including some old less known ones. As such, it is not really representative of possible specific traditions. This makes a lot of sense in the modern world when people are exposed to multiple approaches, but if you do have a specific tradition, you do not have to look MB at all.November 11, 2021 9:26 am at 9:26 am #2027111
There are two elements in the shidduch crisis and they are often conflated.
The first is the overall imbalance, that there are [supposedly] more girls than boys, due to the age-gap (I am 100% sure that age-gap is a factor, but, as I have said before, there are many other factors at play, especially the ameliorating factor that more boys are born than are girls). My ultimate HUNCH is that only a small (2-3%) – though still horrifying – percentage of girls are victims of the age-gap issue (though I have no statistical data to support my hunch).
Then there is a second issue, and though it isn’t as problematic, in a way it is worse because it applies to a very large percentage of girls. If the average girl starts shidduchim at 19 and the average boy start shidduchim at 23, we are starting with a 4-year age gap. Ultimately, however, the average age gap between couples is smaller, say 2 years or 2.5 years. What that means is that an AVERAGE girl is forced to WAIT two ADDITIONAL years over and above the normal dating duration. Obviously, this additional waiting time isn’t uniformly distributed: some girls wait no additional time (i.e., the 19 year old girl who gets married to the 23 year old boy) and some girls wait 4 or more ADDITIONAL years. This is the only way to explain how we start with a 4 year age gap and end up with a two year age gap.
This is a massive problem. First, according to the SDEI CHEMED, delaying a girl against her will even a few months puts her in the “agunah” status. Second, when girls are forced to wait the ADDITIONAL two years, they are in absolute fear, worrying if they will ever get married. Sometimes, this additional wait time means that parents are forced to marry off the younger daughter before the older daughter, and are forced to dance and smile at the bittersweet (or perhaps it is better just to call it “bitter”) event of their younger daughter’s wedding.
Finally, there is a health issue. Without getting into specifics, every additional year that a girl delays her first pregnancy comes at a cost to her health. A woman body wasn’t designed to handle a shidduch crisis. This is a massive problem (google yenner maclah in the chest and in the colon along with “age of first pregnancy”).November 11, 2021 11:40 am at 11:40 am #2027119
Regarding the health issue, it seems that it’s only a concern if the woman waits until the aye of 35; common among goyim, extremely uncommon among yiddenNovember 11, 2021 12:19 pm at 12:19 pm #2027154
It is a gradual issue. A woman who gets pregnant over 35 has a three times more likely chance of getting yenner machlah in the chest than a woman who gets pregnant at 18. It is OBVIOUSLY a gradual issue, with the risk increasing each additional year (it’s not like a switch which turns on an off the day you turn 35).November 11, 2021 3:54 pm at 3:54 pm #2027160
Or perhaps the study was flawed and only had those 2 groups? By goyim, teenage mothers and 35 year olds are common, 21-23 isn’tNovember 11, 2021 8:46 pm at 8:46 pm #2027285
Maybe the understanding of the situation is different? Girls feel pressure to start shiduchim earlier because they would rather be early than late, they have a larger selection of hatanim of different ages, and they have more time to find the right one. That is, they are investing themselves in the process instead of relying on the nes.
If you push boys to go earlier, you take away most of the above opportunities from the girls.November 11, 2021 9:33 pm at 9:33 pm #2027369
Is the risk increase if the FIRST pregnancy is at or over age 35 or is the increased risk if ANY pregnancy occurs over age 35?November 11, 2021 10:17 pm at 10:17 pm #2027383
Based on a quick search: It seems that risk is based on the first pregnancy: it is slightly elevated for ten years after and lower after that. Additional pregnancies give additional benefitNovember 12, 2021 9:38 am at 9:38 am #2027491Shimon NodelParticipant
AAQ, chasidim chose not to follow Mishna berura? That makes sense, it would explain a lotNovember 12, 2021 11:29 am at 11:29 am #2027525
The Shidduch Crisis is unfortunately the greatest man made tragedy of our times. Boys and their parents that don`t listen to Shidduchim until 23, are the ones that are causing the crisis. This has been proven by actual statistical charts, that can be seen on the site Shidduchcrisis.com. The charts have been advertised in the Yated, Hamodia, Ami, FJJ, and others. As long as the boys want to go on with waiting till 23 there will be Korbomos. Stop the crisis by listening to Shidduchim at age 21.November 12, 2021 12:34 pm at 12:34 pm #2027554
We learn the concept of a Shidduch being Bashert from Yitzchok and Rivka. Oddly, you can hardly find a case of more effort being put into a Shidduch than that case.November 12, 2021 1:09 pm at 1:09 pm #2027570
Bashert is not mentioned in Halacha. On the contrary Shilchon Arach Paskens
1-) A person should close a Shidduch on Tisha Be`Av
2-)Writing is forbidden on Chol Hamoed. Yet one should do a Shidduch and write Tnoim on Chol Hamoed.
What happened to the Bashert theory?
Also Mr Halaivi did you decide your Shidduch at the well, or did you go on 7 dates until you got engaged. Stop the nonsense and face reality!November 12, 2021 1:36 pm at 1:36 pm #2027582
Libbi: Technically (and I’m not advocating this) from a purely mathematical perspective, if all girls universally agreed they wouldn’t date/get married before age 23, that would also effectively solve the crisis.November 12, 2021 2:27 pm at 2:27 pm #2027593
Technically from a mathematical prospective if all girls would agree not to date until later, it would solve the crisis. But who can enforce that.
Also please note, Hashem created humans with an inclination to date and get married. If they delay they are transgressing on Ve
Loi Sosuru Achrai Einaichem. Because boys are transgressing on VeLoi So`Siru does someone want to force the girls to do the same?November 12, 2021 4:17 pm at 4:17 pm #2027613
If you only read the first sentence of a post, don’t comment on it especially not rudely. Quit the rash, argumentative, hyperbolic baloney.November 12, 2021 4:18 pm at 4:18 pm #2027612
> chasidim chose not to follow Mishna berura?
this is a murkier case to defend, as Chasidim started as a group disregarding traditions of their communities. If you accept this shita, then they should be the only ones to actually need a Mishna Berurah.
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