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So I was talking to this person who was having a hard time learning Talmud, and he was making accusations that nothing in the talmud is straightforward, and that it is ‘disingenuously roundabout and long-winded’. I asked him to give me an example, so he responded that you can find this on every page, but it is indicative in every question and answer in the writings which pose their questions as ???? ???? -“and if you would say”, or ??? ?????? -“and there is to ask” rather than asking directly.
It’s supposed to be involving….in its discussions many relevant lessons are learned.
Shtuyot. Maybe the guy is frustrated that he can’t make a leining on three lines of Gemara without breaking his teeth.
Oh, and as far as I know ??? ?????? never appears in the Talmud.
This discussion is absurd. Of course the Gemara is roundabout and long winded. If you want to see what an abridged version of the gemara would look like turn to the back look at the similarly laid out pages written by the Rif. Part of what he is doing is removing the shkla vetarya and leaving just the conclusions behind.
If he doesnt like the “give and take” (depending on his age)encourage him to learn something more direct. PErhaps halacha is more his cup of tea. There si a big Torah out there, there is somehting for everybody
Gemara is not a elegant novel, but rather a big collection of roughly recorded conversations and debates of rebbeim in the beis midrash by their talmidim. The style of language used is also more than 1,500 years old and seems archaic to modern people. Gemara is hard, but if you break your teeth over it, eventually you shall have much success. The Gemara itself even says that if someone says they tried to learn and couldn’t don’t believe them!
Tell him the Gemara is the larger words in the center.
his point being???
The Gemara is actually far from being simply a collection of roughly recorded conversations. It is heavily edited. Words are stuck into braysos and some Kushyos and Terutzim are put in just to lead up to the main Kasha. Deeper questions hide behind a simple front, as Tosafos points out at times, to be easily understood. The language, when it isn’t a direct quote is more the most part streamlined.
The Talmud is an encyclopedia compilation of sources. If you want something nice and organized consider the Shulhan Arukh or the Rambam’s Mishneh Torah.
What about using an artscroll?
He wants the uncensored version.
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