May 10, 2019 10:26 am at 10:26 am #1725193
In Chutz L’Aretz, we must not treat Yom Tov Sheini with less kedusha than Yom Yov Rishon.
Yet, the minhag is to stay up the first night of Shavuos, not the second night!
Is there an inyan to be machmir to stay up both nights, treating both days of Yom Tov equally?May 10, 2019 4:15 pm at 4:15 pm #1725381
There is no gemora telling us to stay up on the first night of Shavuos , so it is not like the second day of Yom Tov.
Stay up on your own and since the whole thing is a minhag, no baal tosif is involved like the Shagas Aryeh by todir and reshus.May 10, 2019 4:18 pm at 4:18 pm #1725365
Apparently those yidden that are careful in mitzvos actually stay up BOTH nights if Shavuos! Yasher koach for letting me know! There is a hetter of some sort to be maykil for staying up only on first night but Anshei Maaseh do both nights.May 10, 2019 4:19 pm at 4:19 pm #1725425
I don’t know. I don’t even stay up all night the first night.
(I usually take a half hour nap after the meal and then go to shul for the rest of the night to learn.).
The WolfMay 12, 2019 12:11 pm at 12:11 pm #1725728
to answer the question that started this trhead…..there is no issur in staying up both nights.May 12, 2019 5:58 pm at 5:58 pm #1725765
Is there a chiyuv or at least a good inyan to stay up both nights?May 12, 2019 5:58 pm at 5:58 pm #1725767
Rebbetzin, men should keep the first night, and women the second. (It is impractical for both genders to stay up all night learning on the same night.)May 12, 2019 5:58 pm at 5:58 pm #1725821
Netei Gavriel Shavuos ch. 17. s. 5 and FN 5 & 6
“There is an opinion to remain awake BOTH nights of Shavuos and say Tikun during both nights (see FN5 for sources), but now the custom is not followed because the majority of people are unable to keep it (see FN6 for details of those that followed it).”
So we are simply wimping out to be meikil by not staying up both nights – really we should, and if we can, we must!
We look for all kinds of chumrahs, but here we have one right in our face. Dare we ignore it?!May 12, 2019 9:29 pm at 9:29 pm #1725915
The main source for the minhag (I believe) is from the story brought in the Shaloh of the Bais Yosef and his chevrah when they were in Turkey (Chutz laaretz) and they stayed up both nights. The custom was not as widespread until fairly recently and it is odd that most people do not stay up both nights.May 12, 2019 9:30 pm at 9:30 pm #1725859
In truth, most people that I have spoken to, end up learning less on the first day of shavuos because they learn about four hours at night and end up sleeping all day
So really we should not even stay up the first night. (like r elyashiv didn’t) However being as the custom for ages has been to stay up, we dare not abolish it.
But הבו דלא לוסיף עליה!! שלא יצא שכרו בהפסדו
To convince people otherwise without regard for the tremendous ביטול תורה that will most likely result, takes a real לץ וקל דעת like our resident goldenpickerMay 12, 2019 9:32 pm at 9:32 pm #1725887
Once again RG you turn off those who you are trying to convince by your “wimping out to be meikel” comment. This yesh omrim has not been followed for who knows how long although my shul does have a learning seder on the second night but not for the entire night.May 15, 2019 9:00 am at 9:00 am #1727301
lachisrmma, do frum yeshiva people get “turned off” when someone points out a shitah/chumra that they do not keep out of ignorance?
I didn’t merely write that I have this wild idea that I came up with!
I posted a link to a respected sefer of halacha, the suggestion comes with sources and citations in footnotes.
The sefer (open link and check!) also states that the reason people don’t stay up both nights is because the tzibur find it difficult.
Translation: Really, one should, and that is the correct conduct al pi halacha! The fact that many of the tzibur have difficulty staying up two nights, is not a hetter for someone that can.
Therefore I wrote “wimping out to be meikel” for those that don’t stay up. Is that a “turn off”?May 15, 2019 3:33 pm at 3:33 pm #1727448
No, we get turned off by those with “holier then thou” attitudes. Yes yoiu quoted a source (one that I have used) It is not out of “ignorance” but states outright Vachshav Lo Nahagim Kein. While there are those who do stay up both nights dont call it “wimping out” to be meikil when Rov yidden don’t have this minhag.May 15, 2019 5:18 pm at 5:18 pm #1727387
The little I knowParticipant
The minhag of Klal Yisroel has become to stay awake and learn the first night only. I recall from my days of youth those who chose to repeat the second night as well. I will not address the “halacha” angle of this. But there is a very practical side here, and explains simply why the minhag became to learn all night only the first night.
What would be the effect of staying up both nights? Here are some thoughts:
1. One may believe that he is better than someone that doesn’t stay up the second night. This is in direct opposition to the humility that one should have as a learner of Torah, and the message of Har Sinai which was chosen because of its humility.
2. The body clock is built in to the human condition. It explains jet lag and the challenges adjusting to a different schedule. The exceptional up all night routine of Shavuos is a blow to this body clock (in scientific terms – circadian rhythm). The adjustment to correct this is challenging, but not fatal. Some have a greater struggle, and some handle this easily. If one did this twice, the adjustment to get back to routine would be that much harder. Sleep experts would advise against it. The result would be having a huge fight to function normally during the waking daylight hours of the following days. I never asked him, but I suspect that Rav Elyashiv ZT”L preferred to maintain his regular routine and not inflict such an attack on the schedule.
3. Labeling those that follow the minhag of Klal Yisroel, that exists everywhere, and is adopted by the gedolim of all the recent generations as “meikil” is blasphemous. One can always find ways to be machmir, and one can choose this for himself. That will never make the one that does not adopt the chumra a meikil. I think such a statement is an affront to Klal Yisroel, and constitutes one that becomes difficult to forgive – it would require asking mechila from hundreds of thousands of people. The Ari Zal slept on Rosh Hashanah afternoon. Was he a “meikil”?
4. There is a concept that requires Klal Yisroel to follow the guidance of gedolim of their generation. To hunt for shittos is foolish, and demeaning to the Gedolim that lead our generation. The trend today of seeking these obscure “chumros” and believing that we are somehow holier if we expect to make them the new standard is quite sick. This entire track of thinking is not consistent with Torah value. If you are studious enough to look for these “chumros”, why not redirect your energy to recognize the guidance of Gedolei Yisroel and to seek ways to see Klal Yisroel as righteous, not “meikilim”.May 15, 2019 5:21 pm at 5:21 pm #1727483
If you want to take something on, ask your rabbeim or community rav, not an online forum. There is a big inyan to be “normal” and do your best within the accepted minhagim. Adding on to this is something that should be done with proper guidance.May 15, 2019 8:59 pm at 8:59 pm #1727598
If Iwant to say a bit of tehillim each day, do I need to ask a rav for permission? Thee is no chiyuv to say a bit of tehillim. Define “Normal” – loshon hara is normal, so is bittul Torah. Proper dress is enhanced by minhagim. Women in my community wear generally black skirts/dresses.May 15, 2019 8:59 pm at 8:59 pm #1727599
If I want to say a bit of tehillim each day, do I need to ask a rav for permission? There is no chiyuv to say a bit of tehillim. Define “Normal” – loshon hara is normal, so is bittul Torah. Proper dress is enhanced by minhagim. Women in my community wear generally black skirts/dresses.May 16, 2019 12:29 am at 12:29 am #1727675
The little I knowParticipant
Your response to confrontational comments is comical. You can assume for yourself anything you want. You can say tehilim, etc., and unless this impinges on your other responsibilities, you should not need anyone’s permission. I gotta believe you recognize this. But should you do so, does that grant you the context to consider others meikilim if they don’t? Chas veshalom!
We are not looking to normalize lashon horah or bittul Torah. We are simply recognizing the minhag Yisroel as supported by virtually all Gedolim of many generations, and it is only rational to see this as normal. Your choice of levush may not be determined by the gedolim as what constitutes normal, as there is great variability in this, and our Klal is composed of a mosaic of different minhagim. You can thus choose to stand out from others in your community or to blend in.
Go right ahead and follow the obscure shittos you discover in your travels through halacha, minhagim, and history. If you would just recall that ועמך כולם צדיקים, you would join the ranks of the many Gedolei Hador that sought to emphasize the merits of Klal Yisroel, seeing them as jam packed with mitzvos, not meikilim who covered up their laziness with ignorance. The Torah I learned teaches אחרי רבים להטות, that we seek the majority opinion. Perhaps you think you are smarter than that. I will stick with the guidance the Torah gives me, and the truly great Rebbes I had throughout my yeshiva years and into the present.
Tonite, 11 Iyar, is the yahrtzeit of Reb Naftoli of Ropschitz ZT”L. A famous quote from him is that the word פרום is roshei teivos of פיהל רשעות וויניג מצוות. Plenty of evil, lack of mitzvos. His guidance is precious.May 16, 2019 12:30 am at 12:30 am #1727687
If you want its not a bad thingMay 22, 2019 12:59 am at 12:59 am #1730846
So I take it you think it’s always OK to say a few chapters of tehillim .
Let’s take a page out of your book.
So you would say it even in the bathroom?
Even when your ”husband ” needs you
Even at the expense of helping a random person in need.
Even if it means keeping the light on while someone tries to sleep.
I think you just say teHillIm because it gets you out of doing the hard life work you really should be doing.
You wimp out of your responsibilities by opening a tehillim
You make fun of people for making a ”heicha kedusha ”
But then you wimp out of your own responsibilityMay 22, 2019 9:20 am at 9:20 am #1730930
klugeryid, although some men can’t walk and chew gum at the same time, women are very capable of multi-tasking. When located in places that tehilim can’t be said verbally (as per R’ Yochanan, Shabbos 40b) , “bitula zeh kiyuma” (the not doing is the doing), by keeping the halacha properly.
The Mishnah Berurah notes that it is clearly permissible to contemplate his lowliness in the bathroom, and that he will eventually return to dust, worm and maggot, and that arrogance is not becoming to him. The Mishnah Berurah suggests that he should think of his financial affairs and expenses in order to avoid thinking Torah thoughts, and on Shabbat he should think about nice buildings and paintings.
[שו”ע או”ח סימן פה סעיף ב, ומ”ב ס”ק ה ו].
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