Is there a word in davening that you always mispronounced?

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  • #1621690

    332
    Participant

    Is there a word in davening that you always mispronounced and only recently learned the correct way?

    #1621722

    laskern
    Participant

    bal gevuros and baal gevuros – where bal means the opposite no strength

    #1621717

    Ctrl Alt Del
    Participant

    Not exactly a mispronunciation, but I never seem to be able to get past v’koreiv pizureinu in YT mussaf without an “ay yanny, yay yay” right afterward. It’s just ingrained in my head.๐Ÿคฃ

    #1621730

    laskern
    Participant

    A chatof is a shvo that is hard to pronounce under letters ื”, ื—, ื, ืข. Therefore the stress is never under a chatof. The shem Hashem should be pronounced as most words and as required by dikduk at the end as indicated in the Nodah Beyehudah.

    #1621732

    laskern
    Participant

    The shem ื-ืœื•ื” should be pronounced on the ืœื• not at the end.

    #1621738

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    If you are a lifelong Ashkenaz and happened to find yourself in a Sehphardeshe shul for davening, there are certain words added in the kadish (already in Aramaic) that are real tounge-twisters that never seem to come out sounding the same way

    #1621736

    laskern
    Participant

    The shem above ื-ืœื•ื” should be pronounced as ah and not ha at the end as the word ื’ื‘ื•ื”.

    #1621758

    The Frumguy
    Participant

    Way too many shlichei tzibbur mispronounce Hakadosh Baruch Hu’s name. It is with a cholam (Adonai), not a cheerek (Adeenai).
    I believe the tzibbur is not even allowed to answer Amen when it’s mispronounced.

    #1621767

    Takes3tomakemangos
    Participant

    It’s noy, or nuhye not nai. If you are sefardi it is nai.

    Laskern, are you saying that it is pronounced eLOkai?

    #1621770

    goygetter
    Participant

    Heard a baal tfilah chazunitzing on rosh chodesh “uminchasam veniskeihem kamidbaaaar” ๐ŸŽถ

    #1621777

    goygetter
    Participant

    Yes any —oy suffix in ashkenazy would be —–ay in sfaradi

    #1621782

    laskern
    Participant

    Take3tomakmangos, Rabbenu Bechaye says that in ืกื•ืจื• ื ื ืื“ื ื™ by lot, nai is the plural which for ashkenazim’s pronounciation is incorrect. Yes the correct pronounciation is eLOah.

    #1621784

    anonymous.chai
    Participant

    Itโ€™s not shihakol Nร‰E-HEE-YEH
    Itโ€™s shihakol NEE-HEH-YEH

    #1621795

    knaidlach
    Participant

    bigdoil zroiacha YI-DMU…. not YID-MU. they have different meanings.
    VA-YI-REU es Hashem va-yaaminu…not VA-YIR-U, they have different meanings.

    #1621796

    knaidlach
    Participant

    anonymous
    its not SHIhakol its SHE-hakol. a segol under the shin not a chirik

    #1621811

    laskern
    Participant

    knaidlach, Thank you for pointing that out. The dagesh in the dalet changes the meaning from looks like to being still. The extra yud changes the meaning from seeing to fearing.

    #1621907

    Toi
    Participant

    Ya, not that I do this wrong but worth noting, where you put the emphasis on ve’uhavtuh in K”S will dictate whether you’re yotzei acc. to R Shloime Miller. I think R Belsky held that it’s obviously better to do it correctly but not me’akev, though I don’t understand why, as mis-emphasizing changes the tense from future to past.

    #1621919

    Avi K
    Participant

    The big problem is inadvertently saying apikorsut. For example, in keriat shema saying that Hashem ื ืฉื‘ื” ืœืื‘ื•ืชื™ื ื• instead of ื ืฉื‘ืข. Those who have trouble with the “ch” sound say ืžืงืœืงืœ ืขื•ืœื ื‘ื”ืกื“. See also Megilla 24b.

    #1621920

    ChadGadya
    Participant

    Mispronouncing a segol or a sheva as a chirik, as in “SHI-hakol” or “asher kidEEshanu” seems to be a uniquely American mistake – I have never heard an Israeli or a Brit say it like that.

    Another bad mistake leading to an opposite meaning similar to “bal gevuros” is “oyev amo yisroel”, missing out the heh in oyHev.

    #1621929

    laskern
    Participant

    It says ื”ืžื“ืงื“ืง ืง”ืฉ ื‘ืื•ืชื™ื•ืชื” ืžืฆื ื ื™ืŸ ืœื• ืืช ื”ื’ื”ื ื whoever watches out to pronounce krias shema properly, the gehanim will be cooled off for him.
    Explains the Beis Yosef that he does things out of the ordinary, so Hashem also does things out of the ordinary as the gehinam is usually hot.

    #1621939

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    I think the OP meant words where you actually mix up the letters or something. The trend of pronouncing the ayin the same as an aleph is so mainstream I don’t see the point of mentioning it as a “mistake.” It’s about 100 years too late to try to fix that.

    I used to say “nigdol” in the lamnazeiach mizmor l’david every morning. Then, there was another one of these threads on the CR where are poster named papa bar abba mentioned he had made that mistake for years. That caused me to look in the siddur and realize that it’s actually nidgol and I had been saying it wrongly as well.

    #1621940

    laskern
    Participant

    See the SA O”CH 61 and 62:1

    #1621999

    DrYidd
    Participant

    often people say/sing beterem kol, yitzeer nivrah as opposed to beterem, kol yitzeer nivrah. pure kefirah sung with gustoh

    #1622006

    midwesterner
    Participant

    You want apikursus? How about Boruch hu Elokeinu shebaranu lichvodo. That means we created Him C”v. Should be Sheb’ra’anu, that he created us for his honor.
    And many medakdekim will pronounce the word nih’ye with a sheva nach in the middle, as a two syllable word, not as was mentioned higher up this thread. NO change in teitch there.
    Or how about those that say “asher kiddyshanu,” There is a chirik chaser under the Kuf and a sheva na under the daled; not the opposite.

    #1622008

    laskern
    Participant

    To explain more, the gehinam is being cooled off because he does things against his nature, so Hashem also does things against its nature.
    The sea split against its nature because Yosef escaped the wife of Potifar against his nature.

    #1622083

    cherrybim
    Participant

    It’s not Moshiach Tzidkecha; it’s Meshiach Tzidkecha
    It’s not Hodu Al Eretz Vshamayim; it’s Hodo Al Eretz Vshamayim
    It’s not Vtzadkeinu Bemishpot; it’s Vtzadkeinu Bamishpot

    #1622096

    laskern
    Participant

    As I was educated in this, I will give a little lesson for those who were not.
    There are open and closed syllables. An over syllable can be extented forever, whereas a closed syllable can not. A closed syllable is either closed by shvo noch silent or a degash chazak which comes at the end of the syllable. There is also a dagesh kal in the beginning of a syllable in letters ื‘ื’ื“ ื›ืคืช which after letters ืื”ื•ื™ is omitted. There two kind of vowels, nekudos tenuah gedolos which have open syllables according the Magen Avraham O’CH 61 the siman is ืคืชื•ื—ื™ ื—ื•ืชื, a chirik followed by a yud, malipum a vov with a dot in the middle, tzere, cholem a vov with a dot on top and kometz. The rest are tenuah ketanos which have closed syllables. A shvo no follows a tenuah gedolah and a shvo noch a tenuah ketano. A letter having a degash chazak with a shvo, will be a shvo no. If above rules are violated the stress will be on it.

    #1622110

    laskern
    Participant

    Thank you midwestener for pointing that out. When we say it fast, we can make the mistake and not pronounce ืฉื‘ืจืื ื• correctly.

    #1622126

    laskern
    Participant

    I forgot to define a degash chazak. It is like having duplicate letters in which the degash resides one with a shvo noch and the other with vowel on the letter.

    #1622154

    besalel
    Participant

    Here are the most egregious ones I find most often (other than the first pasuk of k”sh as stated above):

    Asher Baranu Lichvodo (see midwesterner above) (changes meaning from who created us to who we created)
    Lishnei Ufur (as opposed to Lisheinei Ufur) in the second bruchu (changes from sleepers in the dust to two pieces of dust)
    Hodoo al Eretz Veshumayim as opposed to Hoddo al eretz veshumayim (in psukei dezimra) (changes from his glory is over the heaven and earth to praise for heaven and earth)
    Ki Lo CHAlu rachamecha instead of Ki Lo chaLU rachamecha (in modim) (changes meaning from because your mercy never ends to because your mercy never takes effect)

    #1622172

    aishet chover
    Participant

    midwesterner: Did you mean shva nach in your last line since chirik chaser is a tenua ketana? (Kid-shanu)

    laskern: What about melupam vav as first letter in a word- is the shva after it na or nach? (uvchol)

    #1622169

    laskern
    Participant

    I was unclear in saying an open syllable can be extended forever, so I will give an example the difference between ืจื‘ื™ and ืจื‘ื™ื. The first is open and the second is closed. There is no closure in the length of pronounciation whereas in the second is closed by the ื. Also, since it is closed it violates the rule that a tenuah gedolah should be an open syllabe, so the stress is on it.

    #1622193

    laskern
    Participant

    aishet chover, this is an argument, as I understand, between the GRA who holds it is a shvo noch and others.

    #1622195

    knaidlach
    Participant

    laskern
    yes there is an extra ื™ in ื•ื™ื™ืจืื•, plus the ืจ is a ืฉื‘ื ื ืข

    #1622197

    knaidlach
    Participant

    laskern
    yes there is an extra ื™ in ื•ื™ื™ืจืื•, plus the ืจ is a ืฉื‘ื ื ืข.

    VASHEM SHAMAYIM ASA. the word VASHEM is pronounced VA-DOI…not VA-A-DOI…

    #1622205

    midwesterner
    Participant

    Aishet Chaver: There is a dagesh in the Daled of Kedishanu. That is a dagesh chazak as it is in the ayin hapoal of a binyan pi’el conjugation. A sh’va under a letter with a dagesh chazak is always na.

    #1622212

    knaidlach
    Participant

    ื”ืจื—ืžืŸ ื”ื•ื ื™ืฉืชื‘ื— ืœื“ื•ืจ ื“ื•ืจื™ื ื•ื™ืชืคืืจ ื‘ื ื• ืœืขื“ ื•ืœื ืฆื— ื ืฆื—ื™ื ื•ื™ืชื”ื“ืจ ื‘ื ื• ืœืขื“ ื•ืœืขื•ืœืžื™ ืขื•ืœืžื™ื
    both BANU are BAnu meaning: with us, not baNU meaning: they built

    #1622221

    knaidlach
    Participant

    ื”ืŸ ื’ืืœืชื™ ืืชื›ื….ืœื”ื™ื•ืช ืœื›ื..
    its laCHEM – to you. not LAchem – bread

    #1622227

    knaidlach
    Participant

    ืžืฉื” ื•ื‘ื ื™ ื™ืฉืจืืœ ืœืš ืขื ื• ืฉื™ืจื”.
    ื‘ื•ืงืข ื™ื ืœืคื ื™ ืžืฉื” ื–ื” ืงืœื™ ืขื ื• ื•ืืžืจื•
    its aNU – they answered, not Anu – us (we)

    #1622228

    midwesterner
    Participant

    to knaidlach and laskern:
    You don’t necessarily need the extra yud. See for example Koheles 3:14. V’haElokim asah sheyir’u lefanav. Posuk is clearly referring to yir’ah as in fear, not r’iya as in seeing. Yet there is only one yud. Dagesh can fill the gap. and the sh’va is na.

    #1622229

    knaidlach
    Participant

    i mentioned earlier about BAnu in end of bentching.
    in the regular way of singing the bentching its pronounced baNu in both. but as i said earlier it has a different meaning. (im sure you are singing it now lol)

    #1622241

    knaidlach
    Participant

    mitwestener. thank you for pointing it out.

    #1622246

    WinnieThePooh
    Participant

    I know it’s not exactly davening, but is it “dizban abba b’srei zuzai” or “dizaben abba b’srei zuzai, chad gadya, chad gadya”? I’ve seen/heard both versions.

    #1622543

    ChadGadya
    Participant

    WinnieThePooh, I can personally confirm that I was bought, not sold, and thus the correct pronunciation is “dizvan”.

    Kind regards,

    ChadGadya

    #1622533

    ChadGadya
    Participant

    Thanks laskern.

    However, a shuruk, also known as a kubutz (the three diagonal dots underneath) can sometimes be a tenuoh gedoloh as well, in lieu of the melopum, as in the word mezuzos in the shema. The clue is that it is an unstressed open syllable.

    A chirik without a yod can also sometimes be a tenuoh gedoloh. This occurs for example when the word “im” in a posuk has a cantillation mark, as opposed to being hyphenated (makaf). This is similar to the difference between “es” and “eis”. For example in hallel “im nedivim im nedivei amo” – the first im is hyphenated and is a tenuoh ketanoh, while the second is accented and is a tenuoh gedoloh, and should properly be pronounced “eem” – slightly longer than “im”.

    #1624140

    Meno
    Participant

    HoDO al eretz v’shamayim

    not

    HOdu al eretz v’shamayim

    #1624165

    laskern
    Participant

    Meno, mentioned above by besalel.

    #1624190

    laskern
    Participant

    Outside of davenen we find the Rashi on ื•ืจื—ืœ ื‘ืื” ืžืŸ ื”ืฆืืŸ the pronounciation in the beginning or the end changes the meaning, where the Even Ezra clearly explains that the beginning is past and the end is current.

    #1624212

    Meno
    Participant

    Oh.

    So here’s another:

    l’ma’an tizk’ru

    not

    l’ma’an tisk’ru

    Did anyone say that one yet?

    #1624286

    laskern
    Participant

    Meno, mentioned in SA O’CH 61:17

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