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(Popularly known as “your bashert.”)
Or is this based on some sort of misunderstanding?
According to the Torah a man can marry multiple women. The Teimanim still practice this.
Yemenites can only practice polygamy if they live in Yemen. Polygamy is illegal in Israel or any other western nation.
your Zivug has already been decided by HASHEM HIMSELF and 40 DAYS BEFORE YOU ARE BORN. if you are truly trying to be pure & righteous then you will be fortunate to find your zivug on your first date you try otherwise it can take much longer THAT CHOICE IS UP TO YOU
Be matzliach
40 days before a person is born a “Bas Kol” says so in so is to marry so in so. One has to find which spare rib matches which husband.
A man could successfully marry any available (and legal to marry) woman. The question is can the man maintain a successful marriage to any woman besides his bashert?
As a family law attorney, I see many men who successfully married but could not maintain the marriage for life.
It is empirically true that one can have several successful marriages (widow/er). The Zohar discusses zivug rishon and sheini (not necessarily in chronological order).
CTl, your answer is an enigma. If the marriages were successful then they were maintained for at least the life of one of the partners. Unless you mean that they were successful and getting a woman to agree, which I do not think is the subject of this thread.
You have multiple zivugim at any given time. Based on your actions one of them is more matim than others, but still, don’t worry.
No, I don’t believe in this, and think that belief in this concept leads to many broken marriages.
Rav Leff says no, there is more than one person you can marry, and you don’t need to worry that you missed your beshert.
People get confused from a story about the Steipler. An alte bochur came to him and asked him why he’s not married yet, and he said, “you met your zivug but you said no to her.”
The problem is that most people don’t know the second half of the story. He came back the next year, and the Steipler asked him why he’s not married yet. He said, “But you told me that I missed my zivug.” The Steipler said, “So what?”. He got married and had a happy marriage and lived happily ever after. (heard from the son of a Rav who knows the boy).
I read that Rav Chaim, Shlita, says that people heard something his father (the Steipler) said about zivugim and took it out of context and came up with ideas that never existed.
Bottom Line: Don’t worry too much about Medrashim and Kabala when it comes to marriage. Rely on your common sense, marry someone you like who is a good person and makes sense for you, get married l’shem Shamayim with bitachon in Hashem, and whoever you marry is your beshert by definition of the fact that you married them!
The fact a man could have more than one wife proves he could have multiple zivugim.
It is a misunderstanding. There is a concept of “bashert” meaning a person you are destined to marry but that doesn’t mean you can only be successfully married to that person for two distinct reasons:
1. You have bechira and can make a marriage work with many people. Moreover your destiny may be to have a difficult marriage with the person you were meant to be with.
2. A person can break their fate and get a spouse that they deserve (better or worse than they destined spouse). ???
??????? ?? ???? ??? ??? ??? ?????. See Sotah 2a.
benignuman: What do you mean by “destiny”?
Joseph,
The concept of “mazal” as it appears in Shas.
In this case in particular, people presume that because there is a person that you are supposed to marry as pre-ordained by the bas kol before you are born, your marriage to that person must be happy and loving. This is a mistake. A person can have mazal that he should be poor, mazal that he should be stupid, mazal that he should be sick. His bechira in life is then dealing with those unfortunate situations (or in some cases overcoming his mazal). So too with his “bashert.” Just because she is pre-ordained for him doesn’t mean that the marriage will be easy, pleasant or loving. It could be that his lot in life is to deal with a difficult marriage.
theres 7 of them and you marry 1.
LU I heard a version of the story which supports yours. In that version the bachur asked: “where’s my bashert” and the steipeler answered (in pain) “but you’ve met her and turned her down for some foolish reason”.
According to this version, there is no reason to assume the steipeler held much of the bashert concept. He could have simply been talking to the guy in his own language. What the steipeler actually tried to say is that the guy had made (and possibly would make) bad decisions. And that if he chooses not to marry nothing can help him.
I like this interpetation because it emphasizes the steipeler wisdom much more than the common one.
Person1 – and it proves my point that I’ve made in numerous other posts that you can tell the same story with the same words, and give it over with numerous meanings!
LU -“The problem is that most people don’t know the second half of the story. He came back the next year, and the Steipler asked him why he’s not married yet. He said, “But you told me that I missed my zivug.” The Steipler said, “So what?”. He got married and had a happy marriage and lived happily ever after. (heard from the son of a Rav who knows the boy.”
Why is that a problem? The first story is with the Zivug Rishone, the second one is with Zivug Sheni!
Health – the problem is that people use this story to “prove” that you only have ONE zivug and you can lose her.
Who said that “Bashert” and successful marriage are one and the same? What if it is Bashert for your marriage not to be succesful? Or if you marry someone not bashert (zivug sheni, for arguments sake)?
“Don’t worry too much about Medrashim and Kabala when it comes to marriage. Rely on your common sense, marry someone you like who is a good person and makes sense for you, get married l’shem Shamayim with bitachon in Hashem, and whoever you marry is your beshert by definition of the fact that you married them!”
Well said
However people should worry about Medrashim and Kabala when it comes to divorce
Somehow it’s then they choose downplay them
“Who said that “Bashert” and successful marriage are one and the same? What if it is Bashert for your marriage not to be succesful? Or if you marry someone not bashert (zivug sheni, for arguments sake)?”
“Bashert” means something after only one dies ,then one could say it was “Bashert”
Or
as
R’ Yaakov Kamenetzky said “Bashert” in English means you like each other very much
If one has bad mazal, how does one overcome it?
“Or
as
R’ Yaakov Kamenetzky said “Bashert” in English means you like each other very much”
lol. like that.
LU -“Health – the problem is that people use this story to “prove” that you only have ONE zivug and you can lose her.”
Who says? That one you can lose, but there are others, like Zivug Sheni and more!
A number of years ago I was near Rabbi Noach Weinberg at a Shabbos dinner. A girl approached him and asked how a person would know if someone is their basheert.
Rabbi Weinberg told her that Leah Imeinu’s basheert was Esav and that she davened very hard not to get her basheert!
He also told her not to worry about it and to look for a frum boy who knows what marriage is all about.
MA- “if you are truly trying to be pure & righteous then you will be fortunate to find your zivug on your first date you try otherwise it can take much longer THAT CHOICE IS UP TO YOU.”
Source?
To answer the OP, I think that the concept of having a “bashert”, with which many people mean a perfect fit where they will always be gloriously happy and loving, is illusionary and can lead to dangerous imaginary thinking.
I don’t know if there is a concept of the one and only “bashert”, but what the word bashert has come to mean, no, I don’t think so at all. And I think it distracts some people from investing the hard work it takes to make a marriage successful, because “We just argued – what does this mean? What if he’s not my bashert?” The whole concept of bashert is ridiculously romanticized imvho.
Avi K…
my answer is not meant to be an enigma. The problem is the choice of words used by the OP.
There is a difference between ‘successfully marry’ and having a successful marriage.
The mere completion of a legal marriage ceremony means that the participants have successfully married. They have accomplished the stated goal going from two single individuals to one married couple.
If, OTOH the OP meant is their only one person with whom each individual can have a successful long term marriage that is a different question.
Joseph,
You can overcome it with mitzvos and tefillah.
A rabbi once said that if you meet your bashert and he or she’s destined to make you miserable, marry someone else!
[!] added for emphasis because this rabbi wanted to sway individuals to focus on compatibility and a shared vision… or something like it.
—-Granted I like that whole romantic idea of having a soulmate in life to complete some mission. Maybe I watched “The Matrix” one too many times.
ABS-SA: Does someone’s frumkeit/yiddishkeit ensure a better marriage than a nonfrum person?
What if someone finds a nonfrum Jew with great middos and chemistry?
I am so torn. The Lubvitcher Rebbe said that having mismatched Torah values is a relationship to avoid. Meanwhile Breslev says that one partner can bring up the other, sometimes at least. However not every partner appreciates that pressure to change, especially if he or she is not feeling it at heart.
Technically bashert sounds like what you make of it
lightbrite – I think Haman had a good marriage. Maybe that was because he and his wife were on the same page hashkafically.
lightbrite – you shouldn’t be looking for someone on a lower level than you whom you can bring up. You should be looking for someone who will help you grow.
lilmod ulelamaid: I’m technically on a lower level and do not want to be 100%. Dating someone more frum didn’t work out. I don’t know who is on my level; I am on a mixed derech.
Honestly the closest match is secular/nonfrum, but that is scary and feels too removed for me. Maybe I am just not frum and need to accept it. But there is always room for growth so I do not want to put a name to my Jewishness today.
Plus if there is this soulmate thing, and even if there was more than one person, doesn’t Hashem give us the person who we merit based on our merits? Can I build middos merits? Or does it only relate to Torah? Or davening to change a decry?
Do I need to daven for a changed soulmate if I have yet to know who that is? What if a rebbe told someone that this person was my soulmate, and then later said to move on and Hashem can change it? Do I need to daven for another person or is that a given?
~Thank you
lightbrite: I think that you need to figure out who you are and where you want to be before you date for marriage. Then find someone who has similar aspirations- even if he is holding on a somewhat different level. meaning you both need to be on the same escalator going to the same floor, even if you are standing on different steps.
If you want growth and want to get closer to Hashem, then you need to find someone with similar values. It can be someone not-frum who wants to change, like you, or someone frummer who understands your challenges and will help you achieve the growth you want.
I think the message that everyone was trying to convey about b’shert is that it really is not something we should worry about. we just need to find the person who is compatible, who will help us to bring out the best in us. You are not davening for a specific person, but that Hashem should help you find the right person at the right time. In the meantime, you need to work on yourself to be the very best you can be. I don’t look at a shidduch as a prize to be won based on merits- more merits you have, better catch you get, or the sooner you find it. You need to improve yourself for your own sake. Then you will have what you need to bring to a marriage and complete your neshama with its missing half. And then you both work/grow together.
One more thing- Middos and Torah are hand-in-hand- we learn what are proper middos from the Torah, by doing mitzvos we develop proper middos. Without a specific set of guidelines (i.e. Torah) as to what are proper middos, truth can become very relative and things get very messed up.
WinnieThePooh, nice post. Maskim.
I once heard that every person has 7 potential mates, each on a different level of ruchniyus. Depending on where they are holding when they are dating. that is the zivug they will end up marrying.
I also learned that you are the only one that could push away your zivug. For example, your mother cant say no to the”right one.” The way you could push your zivug away is for saying no for the wrong reasons…
Obviously, you can have more than one successful marriage. There are plenty of people who have had a successful marriage where, unfortunately, a spouse dies, and then go on to have another successful marriage.
The Wolf
Wolf- That is a good point. I wonder though, if both of them can be just as successful, even if they are both successful. It is possible that the person may feel that one spouse was his “zivug” and the other is more like a good friend helping him deal with his loss.
I also wonder if it’s different for men and women, since men can technically have more than one wife (implying they can potentially build a relationship with more then one person) and women can’t have more then one husband (at a time).
I don’t know where this preconception comes from that “bashert” and “happiness” is the same thing. “Bashert” is the spouse who you are destined to marry. Who said that happiness can only be with your destined, and who said you are destined to be happy?
Wolf- That is a good point. I wonder though, if both of them can be just as successful, even if they are both successful. It is possible that the person may feel that one spouse was his “zivug” and the other is more like a good friend helping him deal with his loss.
Does is matter? A “successful” marriage is what you make of it. There is no objective definition. If (in the case under discussion) both parties in the second marriage are happy together and in love, who are you (or I) to tell them their marriage isn’t “successful?”
The Wolf
Yekke2 – on the other hand, if your “beshert” is not someone who will make you happy, you can daven to have your mazel changed as Leah Imeinu did, or you can get divorced as many have done.
I think that for the most part, we all can be happy in theory as long as we daven and do what we are supposed to do. “Ivdu es Hashem b’simcha.” If we are told to be happy, it must be possible.
The Wolf – I agree with your post. I wasn’t coming to contradict what you wrote and I didn’t say that both can’t be successful. In fact, I was maskim to that. I was simply raising an additional point, and I was wondering if both marriages can be equally successful. It was meant purely as an academic question.
But now that you mention it, it does have practical ramifications. I am at an age where marrying a widower is a very real possibility and quite possibly the best possibility, and that MAY be something to keep in mind when marrying a widower. I have often thought about the fact that the tafkid of a wife married to a widower may be a slightly different tafkid than someone who is married to someone who was never married before or someone divorced. Likewise, the tafkid of someone married to someone divorced with kids is different. For that matter, a marriage between two older singles is probably somewhat different than the marriage of two young people.
LU -“But now that you mention it, it does have practical ramifications”
Another practical ratification is – a widower might not care to have (more) kids, while a single guy and a divorced guy will probably want (more) children!
Health – the “maaleh” of that is the widower is less likely to be picky about age.
LU -“Health – the “maaleh” of that is the widower is less likely to be picky about age.”
It’s not a Maaleh! Because it’s not a Chessorone to want to have children!
It’s not a maaleh to davka not want more children, and I don’t go out with guys who DAVKA DON’T want more children. But I can’t go out with guys who don’t want to go out with me, and many guys won’t go out with girls over a certain age because they assume they might not be able to have kids anymore. Since I can only go out with someone who will go out with me, I can only go out with guys who don’t care if the girl is over a certain age. That is more likely with a widower who already has kids, and while he would be happy to have more kids, might also be okay with the possibility of not having more.
LU -“That is more likely with a widower who already has kids, and while he would be happy to have more kids, might also be okay with the possibility of not having more.”
This makes no sense, because you could apply the same thing to a divorced guy!
“But I can’t go out with guys who don’t want to go out with me, and many guys won’t go out with girls over a certain age because they assume they might not be able to have kids anymore”
These assumptions make no sense. Either a person can have kids or they can’t. Any woman can be tested if they are still able to have children. I personally would go out with s/o my age, if they can prove they can have children!
“This makes no sense, because you could apply the same thing to a divorced guy!”
That’s true, at least to some extent. There are some divorced guys whom that applies to, especially if they had a lot of kids from their first marriage. But there are also many divorced guys with kids who are still very anxious to have more kids since the kids from the first marriage usually don’t live with them. So it does apply to widowers more often than divorced guys.
“These assumptions make no sense. Either a person can have kids or they can’t. Any woman can be tested if they are still able to have children. I personally would go out with s/o my age, if they can prove they can have children!”
Whether or not it makes sense, the reality is that many guys do not want to date girls over a certain age. I KNOW this for a fact, since I’m in the parsha. I’m not sure why you need a test to know if you can have more kids, but I also am not sure that I want to continue this discussion.
Also, the fact is statistically, that the younger someone is, the more likely it is that she will have kids, so that is why guys prefer to go out with younger girls. I have a lot of issues with that approach, but the fact is that it is common, and it doesn’t look like I will be able to change it that fast.
But, Boruch Hashem, not everyone thinks like that, and there are even guys who were never married before who don’t.
LU -“”Health – the “maaleh” of that is the widower is less likely to be picky about age”
“So it does apply to widowers more often than divorced guys”
“It’s not a Maaleh! Because it’s not a Chessorone to want to have children”
You still didn’t address this point! Even though some of the points that you made are true.
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