Is this allowed according to halachah

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  • #614752

    Rema711
    Member

    Are u allowed to touch the inside of a torah scroll with your fingers?

    #1055608

    old man
    Participant

    If you can touch it with a tallis intervening, do so.

    If you can’t, then touch it with your fingers.

    If you don’t need to touch it, don’t.

    #1055609

    I don’t think so. Look at the last amud of megillah what it says about someone who does (if i remember correctly that’s what it’s talking about). Never depend on the CR for a psak, but we’re good for the hock.

    #1055610

    No

    #1055611

    Sam2
    Participant

    Who says you’re allowed to touch the outside?

    #1055612

    Rema711
    Member

    old man I mean for someone not reading from the torah scroll

    #1055613

    Even for someone reading from it its assur.

    #1055614

    Orach chaim siman #127. Look at the mishnah berurah.

    #1055615

    old man
    Participant

    If you don’t need to touch it, don’t.

    Outside or inside, as per Rabbi Sam.

    If you need to touch it to straighten it out, or some other necessary purpose, and no chotzetz is available, then do it.

    #1055616

    Joseph
    Participant

    Source?

    #1055617

    Sam2
    Participant

    Lior: Shabbos 15b, give or take.

    #1055618

    From DailyHalacha .com

    The Gemara in Masechet Shabbat (14) cites a Halacha in the name of Rabbi Parnach forbidding touching the parchment of a Torah scroll barehanded. One who must touch the scroll must do so indirectly, while holding some material in his hand, such as a cloth or Tallit. The Gemara warns that a person who touches the scroll barehanded forfeits the Misva in which he is involved, Heaven forbid. Thus, for example, if a Sofer (scribe) is writing a Sefer Torah, or if somebody studies from the scroll, lifts it to show it to the congregation, or rolls it, he forfeits the merit of the Misva if he directly touches the scroll while performing that Misva.

    Summary: It is forbidden to directly touch the parchment of a Sefer Torah; one who must touch the scroll should make sure to do so indirectly, while holding a cloth or his Tallit. This applies even if one washed Netilat Yadayim. However, one may directly touch a Megilat Ester after performing Netilat Yadayim without a Beracha.

    See:Siman 147

    The M’B (1): if there is a need one can for example if one needs to sew a sefer Torah but one should wash their hands (ie ritually); however, without a need, one should not touch at all.

    It seems the coffee room got it right 🙂

    DQB

    links removed

    #1055619

    Rema711
    Member

    So little kids aren’t allowed to touch the inside of a torah scroll, to experience how the letters feel

    #1055620

    Sam2
    Participant

    Rema: Without question that is Assur and a possible additional Issur of Lo Sa’asun Kein.

    #1055621

    golfer
    Participant

    Rema, I’m not familiar with the exact Halachos involved, at all. But as far as being mechanech little kids, they’ll gain a lot more by being told that they’re not allowed to touch. And even Morah or Rebbe are not allowed to touch! By all means, if you have the opportunity, let them visit a Sofer and look at his quill and parchment. But teaching them respect and awe for Tashmishei Kedushah will accomplish more than allowing them the tactile sensation you’re inquiring about. Infants and very young children learn a lot from sensory input, including touching things. But a child old enough to be introduced to a Sefer Torah is old enough to hear what you have to say and be impressed with the information.

    #1055622

    oomis
    Participant

    Let them touch the Sefer when it is covered with its outer covering. Then explain when the Sefer is OPEN, no one may touch it, not even the rebbie, because it is very holy. Then give them a child’s ST, open it up and let them touch the inside of THAT, but explain that it is also holy, so they have to treat it with respect, as they would a chumash.

    #1055623

    Rema711
    Member

    golfer I wish u could of told that to a conservative jewish rabbi that works at a conservative jewish day school, he had a class where he had little kids touch the inside of the torah, unfortunately there was an orthodox teacher that works there that took part in holding up the torah so the kids could touch it, when an orthodox Jew heard what he did he tried balling him out, but the conservative rabbi claimed he did nothing wrong, and infact he claimed there is a shul that is orthodox in NYC that allows it.

    #1055624

    Health
    Participant

    old man – Welcome back!

    #1055625

    Health
    Participant

    Rema711 -“an orthodox teacher”

    He’s Not Orthodox! He doesn’t keep Halacha.

    “when an orthodox Jew heard what he did he tried balling him out,”

    Not the way to give Mussar.

    “but the conservative rabbi claimed he did nothing wrong,”

    He’s right! He’s a Tinnuk Shenishba.

    The prob you have is that you don’t know whose Really Frum & who isn’t!

    #1055626

    Rema711
    Member

    the orthodox teacher is orthodox, she is a Judaic teacher there, she had to help hold up the torah to let the kids touch it (FYI she did use plastic latex gloves when she was holding up the torah) because if she didn’t the school would have fired her, the school already doesn’t like because she is orthodox and will try to fire her for any small thing she does not do that they ask her to do, they already wanted to fired her cause she had a neck surgery and had to have a very long leave of absences, so if she didn’t do this it would have been the last straw

    #1055627

    showjoe
    Participant

    Health:

    Rema711 -“an orthodox teacher”

    He’s Not Orthodox! He [sic] doesn’t keep Halacha.

    have you ever made a mistake in halacha in your life? i think so. does that make you non-orthodox? i think not.

    The prob you have is that you don’t know whose Really Frum & who isn’t!

    what are you trying to say? that the conservative rabbi is frum?

    even if he is a Tinnuk Shenishba, hes still not frum.

    or are you trying to say that the orthodox jew who tried balling him out isnt frum? not knowing how to give mussar dosnt make one non-frum.

    or are you tring to say that the teacher isnt frum? see above.

    #1055628

    Rema711
    Member

    showjoe I think health thought that the conservative rabbi and orthodox teacher are the same person but they are to different people the orthodox teacher is a woman…

    #1055629

    Health
    Participant

    Rema711 -“the orthodox teacher is orthodox, she is a Judaic teacher there, she had to help hold up the torah to let the kids touch it (FYI she did use plastic latex gloves when she was holding up the torah) because if she didn’t the school would have fired her, the school already doesn’t like because she is orthodox and will try to fire her for any small thing she does not do that they ask her to do, they already wanted to fired her cause she had a neck surgery and had to have a very long leave of absences, so if she didn’t do this it would have been the last straw”

    I’m not a Poisik, but it sounds like a Bezoin Hatorah, even if she wears gloves. You can’t do Aveirahs, even if you’ll be fired!

    #1055631


    Participant

    It is important for Orthodox teachers in Non-Orthodox schools to realize they often have the upper hand. The Non-Orthodox schools of higher education are not producing enough early childhood Judaic studies teachers and they need Orthodox teachers to make up the shortfall.

    And any teacher that accepts such a position should have a Posek on speed-dial.

    #1055632

    Rema711
    Member

    Dash not where she was at, unfortunately she also has to teach boy and girls at the conservative day school their Bar and Bat Mitzvah Parshas, so she shouldn’t be fired, (Health: FYI she wouldn’t even consider dating a guy just cause he was a republican, and she is a democrat and hates republicans)

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