January 19, 2009 2:43 am at 2:43 am #589161
I would like to bring this to the attention of YWN posters regarding the Kashrus of Play Dough. This will only be of interest of families with young children who create like modeling clay objects to play with. There is an ingredient in the recipe (Cream of Tartar) one has to be discerning, because the source comes from the bottom of Wine Caskets. The problem arises when the Cream of Tartar is from a Goyish not Jewish Winery, and your child or Grandchild plays with the Play Dough on their food serving table. If Mom or Bubby serves hot soup (higher then yad soletis bo), and it spills on the table then the table could become treife because of the non kosher source of the Play Dough. Either find a source of Play Dough with a hetcher or Google for a recipe on line and make it at home.January 19, 2009 5:16 am at 5:16 am #644262
play dough tastes yummmy!!!!January 19, 2009 5:18 am at 5:18 am #644263
asdfghjkl: shayfulah, you like eating play dough, i’llget you for your birthday.January 19, 2009 5:30 am at 5:30 am #644265
mods: i was just wondering, did the editor come back yet?January 19, 2009 5:42 am at 5:42 am #644266syriansephardiMember
Asdfghjkl go to sleep!January 19, 2009 5:52 am at 5:52 am #644267xeroxMember
There is a kosher play dough out there- kosher;eadible- although it tasted DISGUISTING! :olJanuary 19, 2009 8:11 am at 8:11 am #644269
Xerox-Thank you for posting about an available Kosher source of Play Dough this is the point of my thread that one has to be careful with Kashrus even when purchasing Play Dough. Again if it is not available in your local toy store you can Google the recipe and make it at home.January 19, 2009 3:47 pm at 3:47 pm #644270jphoneMember
OR, dont play with play dough on any surfaces used for eating or food preparation.January 19, 2009 4:26 pm at 4:26 pm #644271rabbiofberlinParticipant
I appreciate yankdownunder’s concern about Play-do, but the “cheshash” is so remote that I would not not worry about it.
First- it is pretty clear that whatever edible ingredient may have been added to the playdough, it is “nifsal me-achilas kelev” and is not considered food.
Second, it is not evern clear if whatever is collected from the bottom of the wine caskets comes under the heading of ‘stam jenom”.
Thirdly-even if all of the above is positive, the amount is so infinitesimal that it is bottul beshishim.
Fourthly,any soup spilled is not a kli rishon-because it is either from the plate (kli shlishi) and even if form the pot directly, it is “irui kli rishon’ that is only “mevashel k’dei klipah”.
Lastly, how can a table become treifa anyway? You don’t eat off it and , by the time you put any food on it, it is cold.
So, I thank yankdowunder for his great ‘zehirus’ but this will come under the heading of a “chumro” that is not incumbent upon others to adhere to.January 19, 2009 5:27 pm at 5:27 pm #644272whatshaichesMember
To add on jphone, just clean up after playing with it or just don’t use it on the kitchen table.January 19, 2009 5:52 pm at 5:52 pm #644273mazal77Participant
And I thought I only had to worry about Playdough being Chametz.January 19, 2009 6:28 pm at 6:28 pm #644274
Mi ke’amcha Yisroel!January 19, 2009 9:11 pm at 9:11 pm #644275
It’s good to know this. My babies eat playdough all the time. (I am a morah and my baby is with me) Which brands are kosher? Are they more expensive? Where can I buy it?
Is there any cheshash on glue, markers, crayons etc?January 19, 2009 10:38 pm at 10:38 pm #644276yossieaMember
1) Regarding chametz, unless you are chassidishe or yekkish you don’t have to worry about it. Before the Blumenkrantz book came along, (ie, in Europe) the Litvaks never worried about things like perfume and the like. Playdough is not an issue either (and I heard this from my Rav). (BTW, the whole issue of Litvish vs. Chassidishe can be seen when the CRC (Chicago) comes out with their Pesach list and it’s two pages and the Blumenkrantz book is hundreds of pages.)
2) You don’t need to worry about your kids eating it, it’s not food. If you do worry about it, then you should also worry about glue and most other things kids touch.
Please see note by squeak a few posts down – YWModJanuary 19, 2009 10:45 pm at 10:45 pm #644277oomisParticipant
It is easy enough to make your own Playdough, if you are really concerned about this. To me,if it’s not fit for a dog to eat it, I wouldn’t be as worried, as I would for something that is meant to be edible, like the cakes from the play ovens. Given the price of these things, I would sooner just make my own. I think it only requires flour,water, salt, food coloring, and possibly corn syrup, to make cheap and kosher play dough that is compeltely non-toxic.January 19, 2009 10:55 pm at 10:55 pm #644278
Thanks for this important information; I will have to tell this to my neighbor Yachne who makes play-dough kugel for any and all unwanted guests who come to her house. She has some really great yichus – she is a direct descendant of one of the Sdoimim who somehow left before the Twin Cities became salt deposits.January 19, 2009 11:08 pm at 11:08 pm #644279
P.S. In case others do not recall from earlier posts, both yossiea and oomis follow rabbonim whose views differ greatly from those of most right-wing rabbonim. Please do not assume that these statements are credible until you have checked them out with a halachic authority whom you trust.January 19, 2009 11:16 pm at 11:16 pm #644280
But in all seriousness, most tables are covered with tablecloths and the worst that would happen would be that the tablecloth would have to be laundered. Otherwise you have a problem to begin with at least in theory because if you have a table with a porous surface that you use, uncovered, for meat and milk, you run into all sorts of problems.January 19, 2009 11:22 pm at 11:22 pm #644281
As for cream of tartar, here is what Rabbi Levy A”H, the founder of the OK, has to say on the matter:
Given how readily available cream of tartar with a hechsher was the last time I checked in the US, it seems that most or all of it is kosher as you can’t possibly get commercial quantities from kosher wineries. Either that or it is no longer made davka from wine leftovers.January 19, 2009 11:44 pm at 11:44 pm #644282
Can you ask your neighbor Shprintze for her play dough recipe?
P.S. Can you believe I figured out who you are?
(How many Itziks live right next door to someone named Yachne?-You practically gave yourself away)LOL!LOL!January 19, 2009 11:55 pm at 11:55 pm #644283
Veyatziv – LOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!
You mean my neighbor Shprintze on the other side of the street whose husband is rosh koilel in Otisville for the next 17 years?January 19, 2009 11:57 pm at 11:57 pm #644284yrosMember
do you guys know each other?January 20, 2009 1:16 am at 1:16 am #644285
I still say buy Play Dough with a hechtcher as a stringency, why would someone frum want any bi product produced from Goyish winery? It is easy to make it at home then there is no chashash. Do not let your dog eat Play Dough, because it could be toxic the kelev ate it.January 20, 2009 1:23 am at 1:23 am #644286
qwertyuiop: i’m laughin so hard!!! i was so bored & sleepy i decided to write that!!!
syriansephardi: i went to bed 5 min after writing it!!!January 20, 2009 1:55 am at 1:55 am #644287yossieaMember
Squeak, Why would you put me down? The rav in question is very right wing, and very much respected by the establishment. You really have some nerve, and I am surprised that YWN the site that is so much against lashan harah and motzei shem ra would post your post.
Which part of my statement don’t you agree with?
1 is pure factual history. That’s the reason why many people have problems with the Blumenkrantz book, it’s the fad for Pesach, when 100 years ago this would never have been allowed to enter most YESHIVISH homes.
2 is basic halacha.
Just because you never heard of something, or you don’t agree with something, doesn’t make it modernish.January 20, 2009 2:00 am at 2:00 am #644288
If you go many Kosher Supermarket Kosher Cream Of Tartar is sold there, so Google the recipe buy the ingredients and have fun making and using home made Play Dough.
The problem is only with Commercially manufactured Play Dough.January 20, 2009 2:01 am at 2:01 am #644289
asdfghjkl: shayfulah dont worry, i understand.January 20, 2009 2:31 am at 2:31 am #644290
It’s definitely rauy l’achilas celev. I can attest to that. My daughter is almost three now, but when she was a baby she ate handfulls of the stuff and LOVED it. She is definfitely alive and well b”h today so it is definitely proven non-toxic. My daughter who is now 10 months old also ingested a little bit and would have eaten much more if I would not have stopped her.January 20, 2009 3:23 am at 3:23 am #644291JosephParticipant
squeak, I understand you playfully said that (your first post in this thread) in a semi-mocking manner (correct me otherwise), but there is that element here. (Btw, why are your posts getting official mention in other posters comments?)January 20, 2009 3:30 am at 3:30 am #644292
Yeah you got the right one!January 20, 2009 4:31 am at 4:31 am #644294
veyatziv: i did say it was yummmmy!!!January 20, 2009 5:20 am at 5:20 am #644295
qwertyuiop: what’s up with calling me shayfulah??? i’m no shayfulah!!!January 20, 2009 12:21 pm at 12:21 pm #644296
Was Rav Blumenkrantz ZT”L Chassidish? I don’t believe so – I think he was trying to cover all bases and make his guide useful for all. Problem is that in some situations people did not read his disclaimers and instead followed his advice to the letter.January 20, 2009 2:22 pm at 2:22 pm #644297
Since YOUR Rav is “right wing”, who is he and what does he say on the matter?
(I do not have Play-Dough in my house, I only allowed my children to play with it outside. It is way too messy 🙂
Please also define what makes someone “right wing”? Does it include Baruch Marzel and the sort?
Thanks.January 20, 2009 4:29 pm at 4:29 pm #644298
Since you bring it up, could you please define “right wing”?
(My children only play/ed with play-dough outside, its way too messy 🙂
PS. Achilas Kelev does not depend on a dog eating it (a dog would never touch Booker’s!)January 20, 2009 4:49 pm at 4:49 pm #644299rabbiofberlinParticipant
This whole discussion is -AGAIN!- a microcosm of what has been plaguing our yiddishkeit, (and some of the comments on this website) in recent years. Not one of the posters can muster even ONE credible argument why playdough should be ossur and needs a hechsher. The fact that one baby actually ate it and survived does not make it “ro-ui leachilas kelev”. No sensible adult (or dog) would eat it.
Additionally,as indicated by Itzik, cream of tartar routinely is considered kosher.
On top of that, the “cheshash” of making a table top treif (!!!) is such an unusual idea that you don’t need too many reasons to make it “mutter”.
Yet, squeak questions even these very simple sources and wants us to be “machmir”. WHY?
This is in line with the “machmerization’ of our yiddishkeit-contrary to all of our halachic principles over the centuries.January 20, 2009 5:01 pm at 5:01 pm #644300
OK. Joseph – I refer you to Will Hill’s comment in the Smoking thread. I don’t believe him, but it is one explanation.
Re my “playful” comment, yes I was teasing a bit, but I only mentioned it because it applies. Ususally when there is this type of discussion yours is the second or third post. This time, you were late so I added it for you (b’shimecha).
yossiea, your bile is noted. For the record, I did not analyze your statement yet (and I don’t plan to). I only noted that the tone of your post was to write off what may be a legitimate halachic concern. Judging from the discussions that we have had in the past, and the disdain that you showed then for Talmidei Chachamim, I felt that a disclaimer on your post was needed. Thankfully, the Mod agreed.January 20, 2009 6:02 pm at 6:02 pm #644301
Just to reiterate for ROB and GAW. I do not have an opinion on this (mostly because it is not relevant to me, so why would I ask a Rov about it?). I was merely observing the matter-of-fact psak that yossiea gave and stated why I believe he is not a credible source. I certainly wasn’t instructing anyone to engage in “machmerization”.
P.S. I used the term “right wing” only because I felt that it made my message more gentle. I did not intend to get into a discussion over what that term actually means (obviously, everyone thinks that their Rov is right).January 20, 2009 6:23 pm at 6:23 pm #644302
sorry about the double post, thought mod blocked first one due to asking personal info (name of squeak’s rav).
Nothing against you squeak, its always a good idea to CYOLOR (extra o for OWN, as you point out). Bile is never a good thing 🙂
(against mod 99 rules?)January 20, 2009 8:28 pm at 8:28 pm #644303
No one can accuse me of being anything but right wing – but I see the cream of tartar as a non issue based on what I found from Rabbi Berel Levy A”H. I’d also have problems using ANY porous table that has not been covered and that has had hot non-pareve food spilled on it unless it was known to have been used only for meat OR milk and that is what was spilled. (Besides, forget about getting a shidduch for your child unless you cover your table with a proper tablecloth so we assume all tables in the haimishe velt are covered!)
There is NO way that the kosher wine industry could produce enough cream of tartar for a large company like McCormick to be able to sell mass market quantities of it as kosher, let alone for it to be used in many mass market products that have reliable kosher supervision.
Has anyone in the US ever seen cream of tartar without a hechsher? Does Gefen or Lieber’s or any other haimishe firm package it with a haimishe hashgocho?January 21, 2009 5:02 am at 5:02 am #644304
Itzik_S-There are many sources of Kosher Cream of Tartar available, Gefen has OU hashgagcha, Star K and Frontier Herbs (KSA) are also certified Kosher. Making Play Dough at home you are showing your children that you are willing to take on a chumra to assure them that Kashrus is very important to the family.January 21, 2009 5:42 am at 5:42 am #644305
Star K certifies other spice companies if you click onto star K`s website you can find out their names . I did not mean that Star K and Frontier Herbs were under the same hashgagcha KSA.January 21, 2009 8:21 am at 8:21 am #644306
The question is whether there is any NON kosher cream of tartar, and therefore whether making your own play-dough is even necessary.
Unless someone has another source, it seems that the information from R’ Berel Levy A”H is correct and that cream of tartar is kosher.
Again, there is NO WAY the small kosher winemaking industry could produce enough cream of tartar even to fill all those McCormick, Gefen and Frontier Herbs boxes.
To us, Kedem seems like a huge company but in the great scheme of things, their output is not very large. The amount of cream of tartar they, the Israeli firms, and the French, Australian and South African runs could produce would not be enough to account for all the cream of tartar out there that is kosher. The rest comes from non kosher wine production and because it is so heavily processed it does not have the din of grape products from what I understand of the information I linked to.January 21, 2009 2:29 pm at 2:29 pm #644307
“There are many sources of Kosher Cream of Tartar available, Gefen has OU hashgagcha, Star K and Frontier Herbs (KSA) are also certified Kosher. Making Play Dough at home you are showing your children that you are willing to take on a chumra to assure them that Kashrus is very important to the family.”
Now why didn’t you say that at first! Then we would not have had this whole misunderstanding!
What you said: “If Mom or Bubby serves hot soup (higher then yad soletis bo), and it spills on the table then the table could become treife because of the non kosher source of the Play Dough. Either find a source of Play Dough with a hetcher or Google for a recipe on line and make it at home.”
What you meant to say: “If you want your children to be Machmir in Kashrus and always be afraid to use non-kosher non-food items (such as hand soap, Play dough, plastic toys, etc.), find a source of Play Dough with a hetcher or Google for a recipe on line and make it at home.”
P.S. Do the Mitzva Kinder have a Hechsher? 🙂 i.e. Ein Ladavar Sof.January 21, 2009 3:41 pm at 3:41 pm #644308
The problem is that while the motivation is sincere, I don’t see the chumra because it is based on a mistaken understanding of how cream of tartar is made.
Seems to me that there is no such thing as commercial non-kosher cream of tartar. Only way you could get non-kosher cream of tartar is from a non-Jewish amateur winemaker who improperly makes his own cream of tartar and then the stuff probably wouldn’t work for making play-dough or icing or anything else.January 21, 2009 11:24 pm at 11:24 pm #644309
Itzik_S- Cream of Tartar from Gefen does not have Cream of Tartar listed as one of the ingredients on their label. Instead Potato Starch is substituted. I do not know about the products certified by Star K and KSA if Cream of Tartar is not added to their products as well. I think if Cream of Tartar were added in any of these products the cost might be expensive. The whole process of extracting Cream of Tartar from Wine Barrels is very labor intensive it takes several years to yield very little.January 22, 2009 1:50 am at 1:50 am #644310
HUH? Potato starch sold as cream of tartar? That’s a federal offence in the US unless the bottle is clearly labeled as a cream of tartar subsitute. Pls recheck the bottle.
Maybe the potato starch is added to keep it from coagulating and it is davka used so that the cream of tartar is kasher lepesach.
Yes it is expensive – I do remember paying $3 or so for a small box of OU certified cream of tartar years ago.January 22, 2009 4:33 am at 4:33 am #644311
My mistake it was not Gefen certified (my apologies to the Gefen Company) New Square gave the Hashgagcha for the Cream of Tartar product.January 22, 2009 7:46 am at 7:46 am #644312PMMember
OU, OK and Star-K Rabbonim all consider cream of tartar to be a Kosher product. I ceretainly don’t see any need to be machmir for a table that had Play-Dough on it.January 22, 2009 12:14 pm at 12:14 pm #644313
Gefen is a brand name owned by Kedem and usually under the supervision of the Volover Rov and either the OU or OK.
New Square – the dayan of New Square certifies several brands. Still, potato starch is not cream of tartar.
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