October 24, 2022 10:44 pm at 10:44 pm #2132203DovidRichman613Participant
YU has reinstated their ‘alternative’ club, claiming they have halachic grounds (which is obviously a compromise to appease the secular world).
Can the yeshivish community still associate with such an institution? Can we send our children to YU or their affiliated schools?
I thought the women learning gemara was bad, they clearly crossed a huge red line. The president and board clearly have no backbone, and would rather keep money coming into the school then abide by Torah values.
This is despicable and not what my mother and father went through the Holocaust for. Under the law, all people are considered equal. But this is the ‘premiere’ institution that represents yiddushkite to the secular world. They’re more concerned with basketball than actually upholding Torah values.
This is a scary time and the yeshivish, litvak, charedi, etc. communities need to distance ourselves from these sorry excuses for leaders of Klal Yisrael.
Does anyone disagree?October 24, 2022 11:26 pm at 11:26 pm #2132223lakewhutParticipant
Many rabbonim in shuls across America have Semicha from RIETS.October 24, 2022 11:26 pm at 11:26 pm #2132224
YU has already been considered beyond the pale of the Torah world for many many decades.October 24, 2022 11:46 pm at 11:46 pm #2132230☕️coffee addictParticipant
Idk if this is a troll thread
1) it bashes a segment of klal yisrael
2) this is the OP’s first post
(The OP had his account for a month and a half though)October 24, 2022 11:56 pm at 11:56 pm #2132234Baby SquirrelParticipant
YU is Off the Derech; do not go to YU.October 25, 2022 1:16 am at 1:16 am #2132238maskildoreshParticipant
I think what they have done is terrible.
But you completely mischaracterised what they did. They replaced it with a new club which is said to help the members adhere to Halacha.
I do not condone and have many, many objections to this and many things they have done. But you can’t misstate the facts.October 25, 2022 8:13 am at 8:13 am #2132278jdbParticipant
The new “club” isn’t hallachikly condoning actions that are assur, it is providing guidance with people who have a particular yetzer and need support and guidance.October 25, 2022 9:39 am at 9:39 am #2132307
You think thats bad !
YWN often advertises for Guard your eyes.
A “club” that supports people struggling with shemiras einayim, and other aveiros that the Zohar tells us are worse than murder.
Reportedly it has haskamos from such Institutions as Ner Yisroel, Lakewood clearly modern orthodoxOctober 25, 2022 10:11 am at 10:11 am #2132326yaakov doeParticipant
An interesting quote from one of those with an alternative lifestyle “This process violates one of our core queer Jewish values of ‘nothing about us without us,’” . Do they actually have Jewish values if they act on their passions in clear violation of what is most clearly stated in the Torah? There is no ambiguity as far as men participating in acts forbidden in Achrei Mos.October 25, 2022 11:13 am at 11:13 am #2132338
Ubiq – that’s a normal yatzer hora, and it’s something every jew faces, especially in this era. It’s also anonymous, and there’s no chance of triggering each other.
An in-person club, even if its stated purpose is to help people cope, is a chilul Hashem due to the abomination of those issues, which are a perversion of nature, and it also facilitates meetings of such people, which to put out mildly, will not be there to merely support one another.
They’re also promoting non-discrimination. Which means if one student acts abominably in front of others, and they express their revulsion, they are the guilty ones, because they’re bullying ot discriminating.October 25, 2022 11:13 am at 11:13 am #2132336RockyParticipant
I highly doubt the OP actually looked into what the nature of the new club will be. If indeed one of the goals is to help Orthodox men and women struggling with these issues it is a very worthwhile thing. Even if the objective is to shift it from “pride” to “fact” that itself is a worthy change.
I don’t think it is productive to just yell and scream that anyone who has a same-gender attraction is going to hell. It depends on how they deal with it.
Poster who just bash YU bec. it is not yeshivish, demonstrate their own ignorance and foolishness.October 25, 2022 11:14 am at 11:14 am #2132334Yserbius123Participant
YU is literally Modern Orthodox since Modern Orthodox, unlike Yeshivish, has an actual organization with YU taking up a massive percentage of its head. Whether or not they are frum is a different discussion.
The Yeshivish community has written them off decades ago, I’m not sure what sort of association you expect from them.
As for their “Chaveirim Kol Yisroel” club, I don’t see this as any different than the club that existed in Cordoza for the last several decades.
The language they used in setting it up basically states that it’s a support group for men that don’t have tayvas nashim, or women that don’t have tayvas anashim, and how to live a frum lifestyle with that. Which is fine, I guess, assuming they stick to the charter. Obviously, I’m not stupid and I know that they will be hosting talks, publishing media, and holding events that go against halacha. But until that point, and until RIETS officially endorses such activities, we have to be dan l’kaf zechus.October 25, 2022 4:24 pm at 4:24 pm #2132373commonsaychelParticipant
is the OP officially a troll?October 25, 2022 4:24 pm at 4:24 pm #2132394MarxistParticipant
“that’s a normal yatzer hora, and it’s something every jew faces, especially in this era.”
Yet, it’s interesting how the frum world treats it as some addiction with therapy and special programming to help people who are involved in shmutz on the internet.October 25, 2022 4:24 pm at 4:24 pm #2132396anonymous JewParticipant
To Avira et al,
Do you actually believe that LGB etc people don’t currently exist the yeshivish world? They exist but in the closet.October 25, 2022 5:20 pm at 5:20 pm #2132421🍫Syag LchochmaParticipant
Avirah – as always when you get to MO topics, try to keep your hate focused where it belongs. It’s necessary to hate distortions of Torah and people who speak out against what Hashem wants from us but to be so hateful about the things that you have decided in advance that they are going to do in the future? well that is actually wrong. And it brings motive of your other complaints into question. You are not doing Hashem any favors.October 25, 2022 7:13 pm at 7:13 pm #2132436lakewhutParticipant
Exactly anon. Those who are struggling with certain things in yeshivish circles, if they don’t get help, they go off.October 25, 2022 7:14 pm at 7:14 pm #2132440GadolhadorahParticipant
“Is the OP officially a troll?”
CS: Actually, officially a jerk. I stopped reading his rant when I got to the part about “women learning gemorah is bad enough”,October 25, 2022 7:20 pm at 7:20 pm #2132469
Gadol – i suppose following gemara and shu”a makes one a “jerk” in your view. Who then, is a good person?October 25, 2022 7:21 pm at 7:21 pm #2132467
“that’s a normal yatzer hora, and it’s something every jew faces,”
speak for yourself, just because you struggle doesnt mean all do.
And what a strange claim, so the struggles you have are real struggles that warrant organizations and support. but other people who struggle aren’t entitled to support?
What a gross perspective,. Nay, an abomination!October 25, 2022 8:01 pm at 8:01 pm #2132478
ubiq: How many men do you know that lack a Yetzer Hora for women?October 25, 2022 8:02 pm at 8:02 pm #2132480
Ubiq – take it up with rav moshe who says explicitly that in
Igros Moshe Orach Chaim vol 4 teshuva 115.
I love how people can say that the gadol hadors perspective is gross….makes me chuckle for a minute…then the chuckle turns into sadness at the abject spiritual poverty in the fabric-wearing community.October 25, 2022 8:20 pm at 8:20 pm #2132496☕️coffee addictParticipant
“ubiq: How many men do you know that lack a Yetzer Hora for women?“
Well the G part in LGBT for sure do 😝😂October 25, 2022 8:27 pm at 8:27 pm #2132497
“I love how people can say that the gadol hadors perspective is gross…”
Rav Moshe says not to help those struggling with mishkav zachor?
in fact the opposite.
He offers support to the fellow struggling., and writes a letter ( just as long as to the other more natural struggles in the next teshuva)
OF course that letter was written almost 50 years ago
Attitudes and perspectives change. See R’ Aron Feldman’s letter written more recently
you must have another printing of Ig”M. I’m not sure what part of the the “gadol hadors perspective” you beleive I called gross
OR were you referring to yourself as the gadol Hador?
“ubiq: How many men do you know that lack a Yetzer Hora for women?
I dont think many.
why?October 25, 2022 10:25 pm at 10:25 pm #2132510
“OF course that letter was written almost 50 years ago
Attitudes and perspectives change.”
Are you implicitly saying that Rav Moshe’s attitude and perspective on this issue expressed in the referenced teshuva is no longer acceptable in today’s day and age?October 25, 2022 10:27 pm at 10:27 pm #2132514
Ubiq, that’s putting your words in my mouth. I never said people who suffer from that YH shouldn’t get support. I never said that they’re bad people. Youre the one who equates having a public, in person, open support group with “being supportive”. It is both a chilul Hashem, as the matter is a disgusting abomination, as well as counter productive, because it sill facilitate the meeting of people who otherwise might have been “closeted”
Rav Moshe is extremely supportive of such an individual who wants to serve Hashem but has a YH to be a deviant “lehachis” person, as rav Moshe calls it. Rabbeim have been helping people like this for decades; it’s nothing new.October 25, 2022 10:27 pm at 10:27 pm #2132515
By the same logic, would YU have a support group for deviants sho are attracted to children? They suffer a lot too and many do not act on their urges….
But YU wouldn’t do that, because that YH is “bad” and this one is “acceptable” solely because the goyishe world sees it that way.October 25, 2022 11:00 pm at 11:00 pm #2132530
Rav Aharon Feldman is entitled to his opinion; it doesn’t mean that we disregard Rav Moshe. Rav Moshe, along with any other gadol, had a world-view shaped entirely by the Torah they learned and internalized. Rav Feldman may have had othet reasons for the language he used – he’s trying to hold off Open orthodox and far left MO from uprooting the torahs stance on toevos altogether. According to Rav Moshe himself (!) one is allowed to bend the truth in such circumstances.October 26, 2022 7:38 am at 7:38 am #2132575
“Rabbeim have been helping people like this for decades; it’s nothing new.”
Yes! Nailed it! shalom al yisroel
“doesn’t mean that we disregard Rav Moshe”
Though I don’t understand what R Moshe has to do with this thread
“and this one is “acceptable” solely because the goyishe world sees it that way”
I don’t know what this means. YH is YH . If you have aa yetzer Harahan you deal with it. The gemara gives advice for a person who has a yetzer Harahan for murder. That does t mean it’s “acceptable ” but if that’s your struggle, hey become a shichst. Don’t pretend it does t exist.
“Are you implicitly saying that Rav Moshe’s attitude and perspective on this issue expressed in the referenced teshuva is no longer acceptable in today’s day and age?”
And if I am?
Things change. Attitudes change circumstances change. Smoking was once allowed on Yom tov, many poskim say today ot is assur as it is no l9nger shava lchol mefesh. R Wolbe and R Shteyman both Saud hitting children is wring form of chinuch. Does that mean they ate implicitly saying previous approach is no longer acceptable? Things change approaches change. R Aron Feldman is familiar with R Moshe he takes a different approach.
Sure you can accuse him of lying (!!!) because it doesn’t got your narrative. Though that makes me sad for the abject spiritual poverty in the fabric-wearing community who don’t trust our gedolimOctober 26, 2022 10:55 am at 10:55 am #2132651
Igros Moshe (Y.D. 3:115): When the manuscript was sent to me I saw in it another matter. The wicked had intended to weaken the prohibition of homosexuality. First of all by raising the question as to why the Torah prohibited it. This itself is a great evil and it weakens the prohibitions to the wicked with this disgusting lust. In fact it is one of the greatest abominations that even the nations of the world know that it is an incomparable abomination. Therefore there is no need for any rationale to explain why it is an abomination that the whole world despises. The world already holds that the transgressors of this sin are disgusting and are not members of civilization at all. So when a reason is sought for this prohibition, this removes the obscenity from it. It removes the embarrassment, shame and disgrace and completely downplays the seriousness of this issue. Furthermore the answer – given in this manuscript to this question – is that the prohibition is in order to ensure that men will marry women and fulfill the obligation to have children. This further diminishes and weakens the prohibition. It is equivalent to saying that there is in this issue no sexual prohibitions at all but that the reason is just to ensure observance of the positive command to reproduce – which is not viewed as important by the world. These views are prohibited to publish. just as if they were outright heresy, since they represent a view which is contrary to the view of the Torah…October 26, 2022 12:37 pm at 12:37 pm #2132697
“In fact it is one of the greatest abominations that even the nations of the world know that it is an incomparable abomination…. The world already holds that the transgressors of this sin are disgusting and are not members of civilization at all. ”
Is this still true?
In the world? In the US? In NYC?
Certainly It was true when it was written ~50 years ago (!)
It is not true today (certainly not in NYC) And not even in the US (see report from PEw research center 6/25/20 where 72% said it should be accepted. Even globally 52% said should be accepted though that report is limited to 34 countries and missing Large countries like china)
As I said “Things change. Attitudes change circumstances change. ”
Thank you for the confirmationOctober 26, 2022 1:47 pm at 1:47 pm #2132708
You took one line and wrenched it out pf context. He’s saying that “even” goyim understand it. What if he were talking about murder and said that even goyim understand it, and we lived in a society where murder became tolerated? Would you say “things changed” from that time, or would you bemoan the fact that the world had changed so drastically from what the Torah wants even for goyim?October 26, 2022 1:49 pm at 1:49 pm #2132709
The point about “everyone understands it” as he makes clear, is that giving reasons for it undermines how bad and beyond the pale it is – and so it should be for a Torah jew. Being a jew in the 1950s was ideologically much easier. The fact that the world changed means it deteriorated, not that rav moshe was thinking the way that the world did, but rather the world though like rav Moshe! (And any othet observant jew at the time)October 26, 2022 1:49 pm at 1:49 pm #2132711MarxistParticipant
“There is no such thing as a homosexual or a heterosexual person. There are only homo- or heterosexual acts. Most people are a mixture of impulses if not practices.”
-Gore VidalOctober 26, 2022 2:11 pm at 2:11 pm #2132748
“You took one line and wrenched it out pf context.”
Um no I quoted almost a fifth of UJM’s post
“or would you bemoan the fact that the world had changed so drastically from what the Torah wants even for goyim?”
why is it either or? why can’t it be both?
We bemoan the fact the the world is getting more depraved while helping and supporting those who have this struggle
You deal with the reality at hand.
Once upon a time Yeshivas did not appreciate the severity of child abuse.
If we dug up a letter from an adom gadol written > 50 years ago in which he ” simply did not understand the far reaching psychological impact of abuse. … [and he felt thatl] disrupting major mosdos over it seemed like overkill.” Would that be relevent TODAY * ? I’m guessing you would say it isnt (please corrct me if I’m wrong)
I’m surprised this is controversial
Once upon a time the trauma of abuse wasn’t fully appreicated; today it is
Once upon a time hitting was deemed proper chinuch; today most mechanchim/gedolim say it is not for our dor
Once upon a time this was “abomination that the whole world despises.”; today it isnt
Yes obviosuly the aveirah didnt change. and I never suggested nor impied otherwise.
But our approach to those dealing with this YH can change
* I’m not asking about the view of him thenOctober 26, 2022 5:12 pm at 5:12 pm #2132800
Ubiq, you’re reducing morality to relativism.
Let’s break this down: causing harm to others is something that was and is accepted as bad by the world and by the Torah. The motions of (insert italics) what causes that harm (end italics) will be based on our best knowledge, and can be mistaken. It can also be relative to the times, because something considered hurtful 100 years ago today might be considered by the people who are being affected as harmless. Those are fluid; almost everyone referred to black people as “negros” in the 19th century, not in a pejorative. Today that is offensive.
What is not flexible, is the morality of the issue itself. It was and always is immoral to cause someone harm. Whether or not abuse always caused this level of harm, or whether or not people were aware of that reality (or your case of smoking) does not impact the value under discussion, namely harming others.
Homosexuality, however, is a moral issue in itself. It’s a specific sin, but it is under a larger category of perversions that are included in the 7 mitzvos bnei noach, as they are intended to be appreciated logically for their evil.
Rav Moshe is saying that goyim typically understand this; it’s part of our moral compass. The fact that we live in a depraved time when people don’t understand that doesn’t change our approach ideologically to the sin. What the Torah calls a perversion or abomination remains such. That means we are to be disgusted by it for all times. It’s not relative any less than the halacha its attached to is.
Lemosh, according to your view, if we live in a society where murder is acceptable when it’s, let’s say, in a duel, are we to say that while it can’t change the halacha that states that one may not kill another, we need to adapt our intellectual approach to murder in light of the society we live in? Are we to say that murder is any less evil in that society, but alas, we are anusin mipnei hadin and must maintain our policy of not murdering?October 26, 2022 5:28 pm at 5:28 pm #2132819
*notions of what causes that harmOctober 26, 2022 6:24 pm at 6:24 pm #2132833Reb EliezerParticipant
The Torah punishes toeva being immoral as the person must have the ability to change otherwise, there is no bechira and it cannot be punished.October 26, 2022 6:43 pm at 6:43 pm #2132836
Reb E, I’m not convinced that everyone can change if they are desiring to be heterosexual. Conversion therapy doesn’t seem to work on a lot of people. One often hears three opinions, or rather two opinions and one heresy. Some say that they can change, and that they’re obligated to, and that their urges are bad. Others say that if they can’t change, they must live celibately and they can contribute to tzorchei tzibur. Then there are apikorsim who say that since they can’t change they should be allowed to do what they want.
I’ve long thought of a different idea. I don’t think fighting feelings helps, as the nature of the mind is to resist such things(i e., “Don’t think about pink elephants”). What works for intrusive thoughts us to let them be, and not engage them either negatively or positively. I believe one can develop an interest in women, perhaps tomboy types. I don’t think Marx is right that there aren’t heterosexual people – there definitely are people who naturally have zero interest in the same gender, and i think that’s the majority of people, as rav moshe writes, the YH isn’t for taavah like it is normally. While they claim not to have any attraction to women, i think it’s precisely because they TRY to be attracted, and their mind resists.October 26, 2022 6:43 pm at 6:43 pm #2132837
Reb E, there is bechira in not committing toeva the same way there is bechira in not committing any other averah, moreso by sexual prohibitions where chazal say ain apotropus learayos.October 26, 2022 8:08 pm at 8:08 pm #2132840
That was a nice long shtickel.
I don’t get the relevance.
Yu sent out a letter announcing a club
“In this context, we recognize that our undergraduate students, including our LGBTQ students, who choose to attend Yeshiva come with different expectations and navigate different challenges than those who choose a secular college. And as such, we have been working to formulate a Torah framework to provide our LGBTQ students with an enhanced support system that continues to facilitate their religious growth and personal life journeys.”
The op criticized yu for this
I pointed out it is no different than GYE which offers support to those struggling with a different issue.
Yiu said it was different because (among other reasons) GYE deals with a common natural YH.
I do t understand this difference. YH is YH if it is something people struggle with they need support just because you can’t understand the struggle. Sure it’s immoral what does that have to do with anything inever said or implied otherwise. I have news your you GYE is also protecting against something immoral. It’s called “niuf” for a reason. Your hair splitting is not coming from an honest placeOctober 26, 2022 9:13 pm at 9:13 pm #2132854
Ubiq: GYE works too help those with the nisoyon of the aveiros they deal with OVERCOME AND STOP doing it. Is this YU group trying to help homosexuals STOP ENGAGING IN HOMOSEXUALITY?
YES OR NO?October 26, 2022 9:35 pm at 9:35 pm #2132862Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipant
If there is a mitzva in the Torah to not do X, then there are at least some people who are interested in doing X. Otherwise, there is no need for the mitzva. So, whatever feeling some people might or might not have, has no relevance to the need to adhere to halakha.October 26, 2022 10:18 pm at 10:18 pm #2132867
Ubiq – nice try in attempting to evade your moral relativism when it’s clearly pointed out. I said it’s a chilul Hashem because it’s an abominable YH, it’s not something that should be discussed in the open. It’s more insidious than niuf, as Rav Moshe writes.
You then attempted to say that Rav Moshe’s Torah is relative to how goyim in his time viewed toevos. You compared it to smoking.
I said that the fundamental difference between those two is that one is a metzius example of the general moral value of guarding one’s health, likewise covering up child abuse to protect a yeshiv is one example of harming another. People can do things that they’re not aware violate their values and they’re not considered as having violated that value(though there definitely is a measure of culpability in the latter, just not to the degree that people think)
The value of toeva being a toeva that is meant to be reviled by the entire world(as it’s one of the 7 mitzvos) means that it’s not relative at all. It shouldn’t matter what any goyim say or if they change their opinion.
You then want to return to your starting point of “why is this different from any YH”
It’s different because it’s abominable. Niuf is unfortunately part of the normal, not perverse mindset of bosor vedam. Toeva is not. It needs to be identified as such, as Rav Moshe did.
Again, how would you feel if YU made a support group for people who are attracted to children? Do you think a yeshiva is a place for that?
Also, my other point of the club being a facilitator of toeva, as boys are discovering who else is like them…no one has addressed.
Whatever benefits are expected to be from this “group” can be accomplished in private, where such discussion belongs.October 26, 2022 10:18 pm at 10:18 pm #2132868
AAQ, you think rav moshe didn’t know that?October 26, 2022 11:39 pm at 11:39 pm #2132886Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipant
Avira, not sure why are you asking me about what R Moshe knew, I am not an expert on him. But as long as you asked, r Moshe in the teshuva you quote writes that even reshayim do not have this taava but react to it being prohibited (by Torah!?). I am not sure how to understand it, as this aveira was historically popular among nations who did not prohibit it. Maybe he means among Jews (there is indeed halakha that a man can not sleep near a male non-Jew, but can near a male Jew) or in our generation/ culture. Maybe he is simply looking here for words that will affect, but not offend, the LW.October 27, 2022 12:53 pm at 12:53 pm #2132983
“Is this YU group trying to help homosexuals STOP ENGAGING IN HOMOSEXUALITY?
YES OR NO?”
That’s like asking did you stop hitting your wife yes or No. I don’t know the teiyereh yidden who will join the club I am required to give them the benefit of doubt and assume that although they have this YH they have never chas veshalom acted upon it.
OF course if any R’Chl has then the answer to your question is a resounding YES (al caps)
as the letter says “we have been working to formulate a Torah framework to provide our LGBTQ students with an enhanced support system that continues to facilitate their religious growth and personal life journeys.”
“nice try in attempting to evade your moral relativism when it’s clearly pointed out.”
what do you mean try? I am evading it . It has no bearing on this thread. You are trying to slip it in to pontificate, I’m not taking the bait.
“You then attempted to say that Rav Moshe’s Torah is relative to how goyim in his time viewed toevos”
Again no attempt. I quoted R’ Moshe as supplied by UJM VERBATIM. I didn’t add a word . Perhaps you disagree with R’ Moshe. I have no problem with that , though I am not sure why you would. Perhaps you disagree with the translation you’d have to point out where but ok thats fine.
“Again, how would you feel if YU made a support group for people who are attracted to children? Do you think a yeshiva is a place for that?”
I’m surprised this is controversial.
If there was a need I’d feel terrible if they DIDN’T create such a group
It sounds dangerous not to!October 27, 2022 12:54 pm at 12:54 pm #2132996
To answer the title, YU is officially a treif institution.October 27, 2022 6:20 pm at 6:20 pm #2133152
“If there was a need I’d feel terrible if they DIDN’T create such a group
It sounds dangerous not to!”
ubiq: So why aren’t you denouncing Y.U. for NOT creating the Y.U. Pedophilic Support Club, just like they’re creating the Homosexual Club? Are you in denial that pedophilia is a real, serious and consistent problem in our community, MORE so than even homosexuality? I’m sure you’ve heard all the many stories in the Orthodox community over the last 20 years of pedophiles being arrested.
Or do you simply think pedophilia is a less serious problem than homosexuality? If so, be advised that you are grossly in error.October 27, 2022 9:27 pm at 9:27 pm #2133197
Still not explaining why an in person club won’t facilitate illicit relationships
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.