January 17, 2016 5:15 pm at 5:15 pm #1133099
Health- Why is that a problem? Why is it better to live in a country with Goyim running the country than Frei Yidden running it? And we’re not comparing two equal countries… we’re comparing Eretz Yisroel to another country. So not only are you saying it’s better for some reason to live in a country run by Goyim than Frei Yidden, it’s SO much better that it even outweighs the benefits of living in Eretz Yisroel.January 17, 2016 5:35 pm at 5:35 pm #1133100JosephParticipant
Queen, you’re on a roll making waaay too many assumptions just in this thread alone. Health is more likely double your age, not half your age. And he too has not received the education you attribute to him.
DY, you’re welcome.January 17, 2016 5:35 pm at 5:35 pm #1133101
simcha613: Don’t bother. Health isn’t changing his mind. Both you and health need to learn to respect another person’s view and live your life the way you see fit, without trying to convince others that your way is the best or only way to serve Hashem.January 17, 2016 6:01 pm at 6:01 pm #1133102
Joseph: Lets put away the age thing. You are right – I have no idea how old any of you are. (although he would be writing from an old age home if he were double my age 🙂
As for the chinuch he received, I can only go by his words.
Having said that, I would probably be good neighbors with any of you if you lived in my neighborhood. No offense to anyone. I can respect anyone’s view as long as it isn’t an issur min hatorah.
My point being, respecting another person’s way of life is waaaay more important than trying to make people over to fit your view.January 17, 2016 6:04 pm at 6:04 pm #1133103JosephParticipant
You’d have to be a centenarian if he’s half your age. 😉January 17, 2016 7:40 pm at 7:40 pm #1133104
simcha613 -“Health- Why is that a problem? Why is it better to live in a country with Goyim running the country than Frei Yidden running it? So not only are you saying it’s better for some reason to live in a country run by Goyim than Frei Yidden, it’s SO much better that it even outweighs the benefits of living in Eretz Yisroel”
That’s exactly what I’m saying! Why don’t you read the topic of “Tortured shtachim boys” and then come back?!?January 17, 2016 10:04 pm at 10:04 pm #1133105
Because Goyish governments never tortured Jews or murderers or terrorists before. I’m obviously not trying to validate the Israeli government if they did in fact torture these boys, but I don’t think that’s a difference between Goyim and Frei Jews.January 18, 2016 6:11 am at 6:11 am #1133106
Simcha613 -“Because Goyish governments never tortured Jews or murderers or terrorists before. I’m obviously not trying to validate the Israeli government if they did in fact torture these boys, but I don’t think that’s a difference between Goyim and Frei Jews”
It depends on the people. Right now, it isn’t good for Frum Jews. The US is better. It might change soon, even if Moshiach isn’t around the corner!January 18, 2016 2:31 pm at 2:31 pm #1133107
I find it upsetting that commenters cannot bring themselves to say “Israel” or “the State of Israel,” instead falling back on “Zionism” or “the Zionists.” It matches word-for-word the practice of Israel’s mortal enemies (who are your enemies too). Am I alone in noticing this and reacting?January 18, 2016 2:40 pm at 2:40 pm #1133108
Do you have a problem with the term “Eretz Yisroel”?January 18, 2016 4:45 pm at 4:45 pm #1133109
DaasYochid, I love Eretz Yisroel. Should this thread therefore be renamed “Is Eretz Yisroel still the yetzer hora?”January 18, 2016 4:46 pm at 4:46 pm #1133110
Some of the biggest anti zionists lived in and/or loved Eretz Yisroel.
Also, I don’t see how that answered my question.January 18, 2016 5:27 pm at 5:27 pm #1133111Avi KParticipant
Health, how is the US better? Almost every day we read about some anti-Semitic attack. Not to mention the atmosphere on campuses – and a few years down the road these will be the people in professional positionsJanuary 18, 2016 6:35 pm at 6:35 pm #1133112charliehallParticipant
“The Pro Zionists have made yishuv Eretz Yisrael into the first and foremost mitzvah in the Torah.”
Well the first Rashi in the Torah does say that the first 61 chapters in the Torah are primarily to remind ourselves that the Land of Israel is ours.
And without the State of Israel there would be essentially no Jews in the Land of Israel today. At its worst the State is Israel is as good as any non-Jewish government.January 18, 2016 6:38 pm at 6:38 pm #1133113charliehallParticipant
“It matches word-for-word the practice of Israel’s mortal enemies (who are your enemies too).”
This Coffee Room contains some of the most unfair slanderous attacks on the State of Israel in the entire internet — more strident even than neo-Nazi sites like Stormfront.January 18, 2016 7:37 pm at 7:37 pm #1133114
DaasYochid, I ask that the State of Israel be referred to by its name. Leave it to the Arabs and the antisemites to choke on that expression and call the state “Zionism” or “the Zionists,” as if it were an ideology that happens to have an air force.January 18, 2016 7:42 pm at 7:42 pm #1133115
Again I ask you: what’s wrong with using the term “Eretz Yisroel”?January 18, 2016 7:48 pm at 7:48 pm #1133116
charliehall: “Well the first Rashi in the Torah does say that the first 61 chapters in the Torah are primarily to remind ourselves that the Land of Israel is ours.”
I am not implying that it is not a mitzvah in the torah chas veshalom. As a matter of fact, my brother in law who is a dayan in Minchas Yitzchok Jerusalem, told me that for a person who lives in Eretz Yisrael, you can’t simply leave, you have to have a reason, like a shidduch, health reasons or parnossah. What I am saying is that every mitzvah in the torah is precious. You can’t pick and choose the ones you like. The point of Zionism was that by living in Eretz Yisrael, you can discard the rest of the Torah.
There are different mitzvos that different segments of klal yisrael are more makpid on them. Frum Zionists are makpid on Yishuv Eretz Yisrael, other segments chose, limud HaTorah, or Tznius, or Chesed.
My point being that you can’t choose 1 mitzva out of 613 make it your pet project and then expect every yid in klal yisrael to adopt that particular mitzvah as their pet project. There are 12 Shevatim in klal yisrael.January 18, 2016 7:48 pm at 7:48 pm #1133117
DY- I don’t think he thinks there is anything wrong with Eretz Yiroel. That is, after all, the name of the land. I think his point is, that sometimes it seems like people are going out of their way to avoid saying the State of Israel as if they are trying very hard not to acknowledge its existence.January 18, 2016 7:50 pm at 7:50 pm #1133118zahavasdadParticipant
For those of us who are english speakers, We tend to use Israel over Eretz Yisroel just because thats they way we speak. We also usually say Jerusalem and not Yerushamlim
I am sure most Israelis say Artzoat Hbris and not United StatesJanuary 18, 2016 7:53 pm at 7:53 pm #1133119
It’s not a matter of not acknowledging that the political entity exists, but why would I refer to it by its secular political name when I can call it Eretz Yisroel? This he objects to?January 18, 2016 7:56 pm at 7:56 pm #1133120
ZD, if I call it Yerushalayim (which I do), would you object? Would Naftush object?January 18, 2016 8:25 pm at 8:25 pm #1133121zahavasdadParticipant
I dont object to you calling Jerusalem, Yerushalim especially if you use more hebraisms.
Ill admit It can be confusing, I was once trying to get to Antwerp and the train said Anvers. I didnt know that Anvers was the french word for AntwerpJanuary 19, 2016 1:05 am at 1:05 am #1133122
Avi K -“Health, how is the US better? Almost every day we read about some anti-Semitic attack. Not to mention the atmosphere on campuses”
It depends where you live! Where I live, it’s safer than Yerushalyim. Stop trying to push Israel as a safe place. The Zionist government, with their policies, have made it much worse than even 20 years ago!January 22, 2016 1:46 am at 1:46 am #1133123CuriosityParticipant
Zionism shouldn’t be necessary if you observe mitzvas. Supplementing Hashem’s Torah with an -ism implies that the Torah’s philosophy is lacking in some way and needs supplementation.
That being said, the Zionists who go pitch their tent in dangerous areas in Israel may be misguided, but they are our brothers and sisters and we are obligated to love them and help protect them from the Arabs who want to spill all Jewish blood.
The bloodthirsty, savage, fascist, Islamic terrorists who go by the moniker “Palestinians” are the enemies of every Jew, and trying to appease them by throwing Zionist Jews into their claws and fangs will get us nowhere. Jewish sects who blindly teach their children to hate Zionists (and I’ve seen it too) are even more misguided than the Zionists.
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