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EV -“Health, what does “Zionists” even mean now? You may have to clarify the term.”
OK, I’ll clarify. The Zionist government makes living there impossible! How about reading the topic called “Tortured Shadchim Boys”?
Queen,
1. No place is 100% safe. In America one cannot even go to a shopping mall or an office party without fear. Not to mention home invasions. The fact of the matter is that the intentional homicide rate in Israel is much lower than in the US – and much of it is “family honor” killings among Arabs. Americans, however, have come to accept their situation as normal. When the first Gulf war broke out the hevruta of a friend of mine received a frantic phone call from his mother. When she calmed down she said very matter-of-factly “BTW, last week your brother was held up at gunpoint”.
2. Ramban says (Sefer HaMitzvot – mitzvot that Rambam “forgot”) that there is a Tora obligation to live in EY in our time.
“In America one cannot even go to a shopping mall or an office party without fear”
False.
By America, I don’t mean China town or Harlem, sir. There is no fear or homicides in the heimishe areas.
The Queen: last year in Israel approximately 500 people were killed in road accidents, as opposed to only two dozen in terrorist attacks. Your logic just doesn’t work. Eretz Israel is the safest place for a Jew, and the only country with the positive Jewish growth. Assimilation kills approximately 100,000 Jews in the diaspora yearly. Here, our population grows by 150,000 every year.
The Queen: you must be very young- eighteen maybe? I distinctly remember being afraid to walk in Crown Heights, Upper West Side, even Boro Park not so long ago! Try lakewood today where there are anti semitic outbreaks even now!
Elazar: I have close family living in Israel. I am not making up the fear. I also read the news of all the stabbings happening. Remember Har Nof??
Your hislahavas for the mitzvah of yishuv Eretz Yisrael is commendable.
Rabbi: Thank you for the compliment. I’ll keep you guessing. How many people were killed in Crown Heights? How many in Har Nof? How many stabbing incidents of Heimishe Yidden do you know of in Diaspora in the last several years? How many in Israel?
Live and let live, in whichever country you so choose.
By America, I don’t mean China town or Harlem, sir. There is no fear or homicides in the heimishe areas.
The Hemish part of Baltimore was on lockdown last year after Protests due to a police shooting
And how many Jews in Baltimore were killed or maimed during the minority riots in the inner city?
None.
Zehavasdad: And how many yidden were stabbed in Baltimore?
Baltimore has a heimish part? That’ll be the day
None were stabbed, but they were prisoners in their own Home
A Jew was also recently Stabbed INSIDE 770.
squeak: Did you know that there is a chassidishe kollel in Baltimore?
I did not know. That’s great! So would you say the area is now more like boro park or KJ?
Squeak: You should probably try to broaden your definition of heimish yidden.
No time for debate, but looking at some of the news items on YW should maybe give us a clue regarding the relationship between Zionism and Yiddishkeit.
Chief Rabbinate Council Angered Over Continued High Court Interference into Matters of Halacha
Chief Rabbinate Council Votes to Permit Segregated Chametz Area in Hospitals This Pesach
(This article actually gave me some comic relief, but as they say in Yiddish “nisht du ver s’zul lachen.” Or basically the joke’s on us. At least most of the posters here.)
And finally, not only related to Israel/Zionism, but a major part involves French Aliya and its ramifications. YW editors would be nice if they actually gave us more info than just photos here.
So does all this answer the OP’s question? IMHO only a fool can’t see the truth.
Again, I’m sharing this now but I really have to focus on Pesach, so I’ll try to keep myself to the sidelines.
I haven’t taken the time to read every post here, so correct me if I’m wrong:
I think there’s something missing here.
Yishuv Eretz Yisrael is one of the Taryag Mitzvos.
The most relevant question for us is whether or not this is a Mitzvah b’zman ha’zeh. (As a side point there is also the question of the added benefit of being able to be mekayekm Mitzvos Ha’tluyos Ba’aretz when one lives in E”Y.)
As I’ve mentioned, none of us are going to do things according to SHU”T of the CR, but I’d be interested to hear what people have to say.
Apple strudel could be a yetzer hara.
Israel is a jewish state influenced by Halacha, but not a halcha state. Without a Sanhedrin its impossible to create a Halachic state (Things like enforcement of Halcha or the Abandoment of Ellu V Ellu (There needs to be one law for everyone not halachic disagreement on a state level) are impossible at present)
On the contrary, Mammele. It shows how imperative religious aliya is. When the doors were wide open for a while shortly after the British took over Rav Kook called for massive religious aliya saying that there would be a state and that it was in the hands of observant (tartei mashma) Jews to make it a Torah state democratically. He also called for an umbrella organization of all religious Jews who supported yishuv EY.
Today we see that the Supreme Court is taking a greater role in public life. In the long term it could morph into a Sanhedrin if those appointing the judges are religious or at least traditional and if they have people to nominate. If the seniority process remains iy’H Noam Sohlberg will become President of the Court in another twelve years. We have an opportunity to give him the people who will enable him to bring about a halachic revolution on top of Aharon Barak’s constitutional revolution.
Avi K-“Today we see that the Supreme Court is taking a greater role in public life. In the long term it could morph into a Sanhedrin if those appointing the judges are religious”
Stop with your Zionist fantasy! The Israeli Supreme Court has become more & more anti- religious in recent history.
Maybe they’ll have more Muslims on it, than now.
My, my.
You guys are one month early. You forgot, we added an extra month this year!
I see. I may be interested in what people have to say… but what people have to say is- nothing. Okay. If that’s the case then I’ll let you all continue arguing about what big reshaim or tzaddikim or possibly tzedukim the zionists are.
Health, at one time just having a state was a Zionist “fantasy”. Of course, if you do not believe in the Geula (or don’t want to believe as you have accepted Brooklyn as your Yerushalayim) …
Avi K -“Of course, if you do not believe in the Geula (or don’t want to believe as you have accepted Brooklyn as your Yerushalayim)”
I believe in the Geula with Moshiach! Zionism is not the beginning of the Geula.
Btw, I don’t live in NY.
Stop with your Zionist propaganda!
Recenly jews were rescured from Yemen which is not only a dangerous country, Its an outpost of ISIS.
People wondered, why there were still jews in such a dangerous place. It seems these jews became under the influence of Satmar who convienced them it was better to stay in Yemen than emigrate to Israel.
Seems also some are trying to do the same in France and conviencing jews its better to stay in france than emigrate to Israel
I can’t believe that this thread is still going on. In fact, I can’t believe that it even got started. Keep fighting the arguments of the 1940s, folks.
Health, are you planning to say “Next year in Brooklyn”? Have you at least bought a place in Brooklyn for after 120 years? The Geula comes slowly in stages (Yerushalmi Berachot 1:1).
Avi K – “Health, are you planning to say “Next year in Brooklyn”? Have you at least bought a place in Brooklyn for after 120 years?”
I already told you – I don’t live in NY! What’s your obsession with Israel? The country is run by people who don’t keep the Torah.
“The Geula comes slowly in stages (Yerushalmi Berachot”
And it hasn’t come yet! Quit dreaming.
Health,
1. That is why I asked if you hope to be in Brooklyn.
2. Someone who does not dream is called a rasha (Berachot 55b).
3. It has been coming slowly in stages for the past 68 years.
“What’s your obsession with Israel? The country is run by people who don’t keep the Torah.”
I don’t understand what one has to do the other. Eretz Yisroel is our homeland. We should be obsessed with it regardless of who runs it. Using Zionism as an excuse to delegitimize Eretz Yisroel is in my opinion one of the biggest dangers of anti-Zionism.
Avi K -“Health, 1. That is why I asked if you hope to be in Brooklyn.”
No, I hope to be in Yerushalyim with Moshiach. Not beforehand with the Zionists!
“2. Someone who does not dream is called a rasha (Berachot 55b).”
You can dream; but Not that the Geula came already.
“3. It has been coming slowly in stages for the past 68 years”
No, the Medina is Not the start of the Geula, no matter what you think!
Simcha613 -“Using Zionism as an excuse to delegitimize Eretz Yisroel is in my opinion one of the biggest dangers of anti-Zionism.”
No one is delegitmizing EY. What we are delegimizing is the Zionists!
Stop with the dream that Israel is the place to be – right now!
Just ask Ettinger, (Kahane’s grandson).
I think arguments can be made on both sides whether the Medinah is the beginning of the geulah or not. It’s impossible to say with conviction either way. But I don’t think obsessing over or living in EY has anything to do with whether the geulah has started or not. EY is our homeland, we have an opportunity to return, haschalas hageulah or not.
Personally, I think one of the most compelling arguments that the geulah has started is kibutz galuyos which is the return of the Jewish People to Israel. For generations, no one knew whether it will happen through natural or miraculous means, but now it seems to be happening naturally. Klal Yisroel is literally returning to Eretz Yisroel. If that’s not Kibutz Galuyos, I don’t know what is (unless you know for sure it has to happen through miracles, but I don’t think any one of us is a navi that can say conclusively that kibutz galuyos can not happen through natural means).
HEALTH
What delicious irony: Invoking Ettinger for the purpose of attacking medinat Yisroel. Ettinger, whose whole family has fought and died for the Zionist ideal of medinat yisroel….Yup- he is whom you rely upon to support your twisted view of medinat yisroel.
ROB -“HEALTH – What delicious irony: Invoking Ettinger for the purpose of attacking medinat Yisroel. Ettinger, whose whole family has fought and died for the Zionist ideal of medinat yisroel….Yup- he is whom you rely upon to support your twisted view of medinat yisroel.”
Exactly my point! Who said you should risk your life by being against Arabs – in this day & age?!? When Moshiach comes – we all know who will be on top & who will be on the bottom.
The idea to fight against the Goyim – is not for now!
The Zionists who post here, keep on talking about Mitzvahs that have to do with EY.
What about the Chiyov of V’nismartem Moed …?!?
Health- is there any posek that actually says it is halachically forbidden to live in EY because it’s too dangerous?
Simcha613 -“Health- is there any posek that actually says it is halachically forbidden to live in EY because it’s too dangerous?”
Your question is disingenuous!
Quit pushing the Zionist propaganda/agenda.
I could have posted from Neutri Karta, but I posted from the middle of the road:
Rav Feinstein argues that even though most authorities agree with the Ramban that one fulfills a Mitzvah by living in Israel today, there is no obligation to move to Israel. Rav Feinstein feels that the Ramban and those who agree with him believe that if one moves to Israel he has fulfilled a Mitzvah (Mitzvah Kiyumit) but that there exists no absolute obligation to do so (Mitzvah Chiyuvit). Rav Moshe concludes that since no one rules that there is an absolute obligation of Aliyah, Rabbeinu Chaim Cohen’s opinion should certainly be considered when contemplating moving to Israel.”
Health,
1.Rav Ovadia rejects Rav Moshe’s opinion and even rules that one must make aliya against one’s parents’ wishes (Yechaveh Daat 4:49).
2.The site you quoted also contains the opinions of the Tzitz Eliezer and Rav Schachter against Rav Moshe’s opinion.
3. See also “The Mitzvah of Living in the Land of Yisrael:Is it a Biblical Commandment?” on yutorah.org.
4. The Mabit says that a mistaken talmid wrote what is attributed to Rav Chaim Cohen (Pitchei Teshuva 75:6 who records dissenting opinions, most prominently the Teshuvot Maharit 58).
Honestly, I don’t really understand R’ Moshe’s opinion. First of all, what’s a mitzvah kiyumis? An optional mitzvah? Mitzvah means commandment so saying it’s optional is a bit contradictory. Also, what does it mean to consider R’ Chaim Cohen’s opinion? It’s either objectively dangerous and we shouldn’t go, or it’s not dangerous and we should go? Is R’ Moshe saying that the dangers R’ Chaim Cohen refers to are subjective? For some people it’s dangerous while for others not so each person should take into consideration if it’s too dangerous for them? What does that even mean?
Either way, at the very least, R’ Moshe says it’s a good thing to go to Eretz Yisroel… he calls it a mitzvah kiyumis (whatever that means). So I don’t think R’ Moshe is a ra’ayah that it is assur to go to Eretz Yisroel because it’s too dangerous. I don’t think moving to Eretz Yisroel is an issue of “v’nishmartem” that everyone who lives in E”Y ius violating.
By the way, I also resent the fact that you say I’m pushing the “Zionist agenda”. Everyone who disagrees with how you interpret the mitzvah of yishuv Eretz Yisroel or how the Geulah is supposed to come is pushing some sort of secular agenda? Eilu vaEilu Divrei Elokim Chaim… I think you should give a little more respect to those who disagree with you.
Avi K -“Rav Ovadia rejects Rav Moshe’s opinion and even rules that one must make aliya against one’s parents’ wishes (Yechaveh Daat 4:49)
The site you quoted also contains the opinions of the Tzitz Eliezer and Rav Schachter against Rav Moshe’s opinion”
The fact is Most Poskim hold like Rav Moshe! Did you ever learn Halacha K’rabim?
Why do “religious” Zionists always hold like the few Rabbis when it comes to Israel?!?
“Why do “religious” Zionists always hold like the few Rabbis when it comes to Israel?!? “
Just like Chassidim follow their Rebbeim even when they are in the minority, Religious Zionists (without quotations around religious) follow their rabbonim.
Simcha613 -“Honestly, I don’t really understand R’ Moshe’s opinion. First of all, what’s a mitzvah kiyumis? An optional mitzvah? Mitzvah means commandment so saying it’s optional is a bit contradictory.”
Go ask your Rabbi to explain it to you, if you have one!
“Also, what does it mean to consider R’ Chaim Cohen’s opinion? It’s either objectively dangerous and we shouldn’t go, or it’s not dangerous and we should go?”
“Either way, at the very least, R’ Moshe says it’s a good thing to go to Eretz Yisroel… he calls it a mitzvah kiyumis (whatever that means). So I don’t think R’ Moshe is a ra’ayah that it is assur to go to Eretz Yisroel because it’s too dangerous. I don’t think moving to Eretz Yisroel is an
issue of “v’nishmartem” that everyone who lives in E”Y ius violating.”
Nowadays it’s much worse than it was at that time.
“By the way, I also resent the fact that you say I’m pushing the “Zionist agenda”. Everyone who disagrees with how you interpret the mitzvah of yishuv Eretz Yisroel or how the Geulah is supposed to come is pushing some sort of secular agenda”
Maybe it’s just a coincidence that your posts are very similar to the Zionists who post here!
If I have a rabbi? You sure get mean when you disagree with someone. I actually asked the Rov of my shul (who is not a Religious Zionist) and he told me that many have asked the question and he personally does not have a firm grasp of what R’ Moshe meant. The only comparison he could bring is the opinion of the Gra that you get a mitzvah every time you eat matzah over Pesach but it’s not a chiyuv… but even that concept he doesn’t really understand.
And it is not worse than it was at that time. People died by the droves trying to travel from Europe to Israel by horse and buggy or however they travelled. How many Nefesh BNEfesh fatalities are there? There were crusades and wars that killed many, not to mention the lack of food and infrastructure in the Land of Israel during the Middle Ages. You may need to relearn history if you think EY was safer in the 1300s than it is today.
And I don’t know if it’s definitely worse now than it was when R’ Moshe wrote the teshuvah. But even if it is, you can’t assume he would say it’s assur to go nowadays because it’s too dangerous.
How about wearing a beged with arba kanfos and tzitzis? How about eating a meal in the sukkah (when not required)? (Yes, I know those aren’t 100% equivalent.)
How about many forms of tzedakah and chessed?
How about mitzvos aseh shehazman grama for women?
I don’t know why the concept of not being obligated but receiving s’char if done is hard to understand. The semantics of the word mitzvah doesn’t bother me a whole lot. Even according to the mechaber who doesn’t allow a brachah saying “v’tzivanu” when optional shouldn’t have a problem with casual use of the word, and certainly not the concept.
So, according to R’ Moshe, living in EY is like doing chessed or tzedakah or eating in the sukkah when we don’t have to? I accept that. Yet all of those things, we don’t use the fact that it’s optional as an excuse. Do people really say “I don’t do tzedakah or chessed because it’s optional? I only eat in the sukkah the bare minimum because it’s optional?” And yet, R’ Moshe’s teshuvah is a reason (or an excuse) not to move to EY? We do chessed and tzedakah even when it’s really difficult because they are good things, even if they are not obligatory. Why is our attitude towards the mitzvah kiyumis (according to R’ Moshe) of yishuv Eretz Yisroel any different?
I guess the only reason not to go, at least according to R’ Moshes’s teshuvah, is if it were in fact too dangerous. But in my opinion, danger is an objective halachic status. So unless the millions of Jews already in Israel are violating venishmartem for every moment that they are in EY (and I don’t think any posek would go that far to say that they are), then it is not too dangerous to go to EY. I don’t understand what R’ Moshe seems to say that danger is subjective.
Health, who says that most poskim hold like Rav Moshe. In any case, halacha k’rabbim is only when there is a discussion and vote, as in a din Torah or on the Sanhedrin. Just out of curiosiy, do you wear a tallit katan?
Simcha, my understanding is that you get points for doing it but do not lose points for not doing it. Sort of like an extra credit question on an exam.
Do people really say, “I don’t do tzedakah or chessed because it’s optional? I only eat in the sukkah the bare minimum because it’s optional?”
You are taking an extreme. I’ll take the other: do people give every moment of their time for chessed and every penny they own to tzedakah (don’t worry – I’ll find you a heter for “al yivazvez yoser michomesh”)?
Do people eat one seudah after the other in the sukkah? Endlessly eat matzah?
DY- Yishuv Eretz Yisroel is not many small mitzvos like tzedakah, it’s one mitzvah (albeit kiyumis according to R’ Moshe) you either do it or you don’t. But I hear your point that the two mitzvos aren’t comparable. Yishuv Eretz Yisroel is really really hard to do and there are many reasons not to go, like parnassah and family, and R’ Moshe’s teshuvah allows us to stay in Chutz La’Aretz for these reasons. But that’s what R’ Moshe’s teshuvah is… a heter, not a reason. R’ Moshe wasn’t advocating staying in Chutz La’Aretz. And just like if I were given a heter not to do a mitzvah, like not to wear tzitzis, or not to give any tzedakah, or not to fast on Yom Kippur, I would feel sad that I am not (or couldn’t) fulfill that mitzvah, we should feel the same way about Yishuv Eretz Yisroel. For those of us that are relying on R’ Moshe’s heter, we should feel sad that we need to rely on that heter, and we should hope that soon we don’t need to rely on that heter anymore. And I’m not taling about when Mashiach comes because Yishuv Eretz Yisroel can be fulfilled long before that happens. Maybe I’m wrong, maybe I’m not being dan lekaf zechus, but I don’t get the feeling that people feel sad that they are relying on R’ Moshe’s heter. I get the feeling that people are using it as a reason or an excuse not to go. I don’t think that was R’ Moshe’s intention.
I mostly agree, but I do know people (not zionistic) who very much would like to live in Eretz Yisroel but can’t for valid reasons.
I’m not sure why you take Moshiach out of the equation. There are mitzvos we aren’t able to perform and won’t be able to until Moshiach comes, and we are supposed to feel very sad about it. ????? ?????? ????? ??????…
I just meant that Yishuv Eretz Yisroel is not one of those Mitzvos that we need Mashiach to fulfill.
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