Isn’t Smoking אסור?!?!?!

Home Coffeeroom Local & Neighborhood Issues Isn’t Smoking אסור?!?!?!

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  • #1531737

    MasmidInTraining
    Participant

    It’s hard to believe that smoking has been pronounced assur by so many gedolim, yet still, many “frum” Yehudim continue to do it? Is there some heter I’m missing out on?

    #1532694

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    Many feel that giving up on cigs will lead to drugs etc. I dont agree but ive heatd this argument many a time.

    #1532709

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    This topic has been discussed numerous times. Please search the archives for this topic.

    #1532728

    yitzchokm
    Participant

    Not osser according to R. Moshe

    #1532737

    The little I know
    Participant

    yitzchokm:

    The comment before yours guides you to search the prior posts on this subject. Do so.

    I will only repeat a strong rebuke. Reb Moshe ZT”L NEVER said it was muttar, and it is dishonest and unfair to claim he did. Review his teshuvos about it. Never a heter.

    His children were consulted about Reb Moshe’s teshuvah on this subject. They stated unequivocally that his absence of declaring an issur was based on the minimal evidence at that time about the dangers of smoking. By now, it would have been way beyond the criteria needed to make an issur.

    What is remarkable is that the ones looking to pronounce a heter are the ones who smoke and don’t wish to stop. Nearly all gedolim who smoked stopped, and the roster of those who proclaim it as an issur d’oraysa is quite long. See earlier threads on this.

    #1532746

    DovidBT
    Participant

    An advantage of smoking on weekdays is that one can perform the mitzvah of abstaining from it on Shabbos and Yom Tov.

    #1532775

    1
    Participant

    Why would you need studies showing that breathing in carbon monoxide is dangerous?

    #1532799

    jdb
    Participant

    To be fair, overeating is assur according to many poskim. I used to be careful about this, but slipped repeatedly. Smoking is a symptom of a problem, but the cause is as simple and relatable as eating unhealthy food, not getting enough exercise, etc.

    #1532789

    yitzchokm
    Participant

    The little,

    I did not say R. Moshe says its mutter.
    I wrote “Not osser according to R. Moshe”. Of course RM didn’t think it’s a good idea to start.

    #1533002

    Meno
    Participant

    I did not say R. Moshe says its mutter.
    I wrote “Not osser according to R. Moshe”

    *headscratchingemoji*

    #1534162

    The little I know
    Participant

    yitzchokm:

    Are you providing guidance as per Reb Moshe ZT”L to anyone who had already begun smoking prior to 1962? If not, his teshuvah from then stated clearly not to start. That does not sound like “not ossur”. He was not obligating those who already smoking to stop, though he states that this would be advisable. As Reb Dovid shlit”a stated, the teshuvah was based on the data available and provided at that time. With today’s data, the psak is clearly ossur. You comment is still misleading by implication.

    #1534203

    frumnotyeshivish
    Participant

    The burden belongs to the one who wants to prove issur. There are countless tshuvos from countless poskim over the last 300 years paskening heter re: smoking. Cigarettes have gotten safer over that period of time. Also, knowledge that smoking causes lung cancer (in the form of medical studies) has been around since the forties and fifties. Reb Moshe knew about medical studies.

    It’s one thing if y’all were so into making heterim because the previous generations made a mistake as proven by current scientific studies. But y’all aren’t (myself included). Be consistent.

    As to the op, no, it isn’t. It is unhealthy, but does not reach a likelihood of life-threatening harm to the individual smoker. Shomer pesoim hashem. There are rabbis that disagree with the above. Ask your Rabbi for halachic guidance pertaining to yourself, if you are unsure.

    #1534235

    unommin
    Participant

    The fact that people need to be told that something is or isn’t ossur of this kind is a symptom of a sick nonthinking society. Can’t anyone think for themselves and even discuss public policy for a second without needing to read a book that was written thirty years ago and try to apply it?

    #1535328

    frumnotyeshivish
    Participant

    Why discuss public policy when talking about individual choices, which, by and large, don’t affect others?

    #1535347

    CTRebbe
    Participant

    I think we all realize the disparity between what frum Jews do and whether or not poskim say it is mutar. We can all come up with a long list of things that come under this category (unfiltered internet, non-tznius clothing, alcohol abuse, materialistic opulence etc.)
    It seems as if it has gone down in popularity over the last 20-30 years and may not be at the top of every Rabbis hit list when they are looking for issues that need fixing in the frum world

    #1538299

    MasmidInTraining
    Participant

    Rav Wozner in his sefer Sheivet HaLevi clearly paskened it’s assur.

    #1538361

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “are countless tshuvos from countless poskim over the last 300 years paskening heter re: smoking”.

    Search through otzar hachachma, there are many teshuvos from 400 years ago that coffee should be assur (it was introduced to the middle east and europe in the 1500s.)

    Sometimes, factors that form the basis for a psak change and with it, the psak.

    #1538367

    1
    Participant

    It’s not worse than stuffing your face at a restaurant

    #1538366

    ndslgm
    Participant

    theres the shitas maharsha in brachos that “v’nishmartem” is only talking about ruchnius

    #1538380

    The little I know
    Participant

    1:

    Stop the defensiveness about smoking. It is assur, and will always be, despite how much smokers enjoy the experience. There is no comparison at all with your example of stuffing your face at a restaurant. I hope you possess enough intellect to grasp that. But I’ll make it really simple. Just because overeating carries its risks and dangers, is that a reason to declare food assur? Not an exact parallel, if wearing 5 ציצית would be prohibited because of בל תוסיף, would that render wearing 4 ציצית a problem, too? Now let’s make it even simpler. Food is requirement. There are boundaries and guidelines to follow, and certain foods are indeed assur. Likewise, those things that carry danger and risk are also prohibited, and this includes overeating (whether at restaurant or at home). Smoking has not a single benefit, and only danger. Even if you minimized the danger statistically, the balance weighs in against permitting it. So there you have it. Simple enough?

    #1538439

    jew boy2
    Participant

    my teacher’s mom smoked, and soon after she quit, she died.

    so he won’t stop smoking until…..

    #1538467

    Shopping613 🌠
    Participant

    Unlike overeating the smoke from your cigarettes can attach itself onto the physical environment and say there for over 30 years, causing every person who passes through to get that unhealthy stuff in their body.

    How can you do that to so many people?!

    #1538500

    The little I know
    Participant

    jewboy2:

    Your teacher’s mom managed to quit before she died. What a wasted effort. She could have held on a drop longer, and quit via her death.

    #1538648

    takahmamash
    Participant

    frumnotyeshivish:

    It is unhealthy, but does not reach a likelihood of life-threatening harm to the individual smoker.

    Really? In which universe does smoking not create life threatening harm to the smoker? Certainly not the universe we live in. Are you a shill for the tobacco companies, or is this just some general trolling? Show me any doctor or study that says smoking “does not reach a likelihood of life-threatening harm to the individual smoker.”

    #1538679

    The little I know
    Participant

    frumnotyeshivish:

    You claim that cigarettes have gotten safer. That is absolutely not true. Research shows that the nicotine levels have increased almost two fold since the manufacturers began making them. The “light” cigarettes actually have been found to be more dangerous, since smokers indulge to satisfy their physical dependency, and simply inhale deeper and hold the smoke longer than regular cigs. The result in highly increased exposure to the many carcinogens, hence greater risk.

    So please share the science that indicates increased safety if cigarettes today. Unless you were just being sarcastic (דן לכף זכות). It is definitely not factually accurate.

    #1538703

    Health
    Participant

    ndslgm -“theres the shitas maharsha in brachos that “v’nishmartem” is only talking about ruchnius”

    So what?!?
    SMOKING is Ossur!
    SMOKING violates the Misvat Lo Ta’aseh (prohibition) of “Ve’lo Tasim Damim Be’betecha” (“you shall not bring bloodguilt into your house”).
    It doesn’t matter whether it’s s/o else or you.

    #1538694

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    Is the issur a drabannan or dorysa?

    #1538721

    yitzchokm
    Participant

    It’s not osser.
    Doesn’t mean you should be doing it, rather, it doesn’t meet the standard of being halachicly forbidden.

    Just for the record, I’ve never smoked a day in my life. I don’t Vape. I don’t drink alcohol regularly and I’m not addicted to anything

    #1538723

    yitzchokm
    Participant

    Health, that’s a stretch. Source?

    #1538901

    The little I know
    Participant

    Yitzchokm:

    I reject your psak halacha 100%. Do yourself a favor. Visit a seforim store (perhaps search for this online if stores no longer have it), and purchase a small sefer called חיים ללא עישון. read through the haskamos to the sefer, and then learn the rest cover to cover. It is not a long sefer, and it will not bankrupt you for time. After you have completed it, seeing what all the poskim from today’s generation, plus those of the last two, you can return here and tell us why your opinion matters.

    #1538991

    frumnotyeshivish
    Participant

    TLIK – no manufacturers were mass producing cigarettes 300 years ago. No filters, either. Light cigarettes, despite being safer, you argue, induce more dangerous behaviors in smokers at large. I’d like to see that study, but I’m not disagreeing to that.

    takahmamash: you show me a doctor or study which shows that more than 50% of smokers (define likelihood please) die early because of smoking.

    #1538947

    Health
    Participant

    yitzchokm -“Health, that’s a stretch. Source?”

    From Rav Lechem Shevet blog:

    “Maakeh and Lo Tasim Damim: Severity of Hazards
    So, previously we established that there is a debate whether mitzvas of Maakeh and Lo Tasim Damim are or are not essentially linked, with the consequence to what degree they cover the same cases. Now we’ll take a look at a related question: what cases do these mitzvot actually cover?

    The basic case is that brought in the pasuk itself, that of a house with an accessible roof, where the obligation is to add a guard rail. Once we move beyond that case, then the questions begin. We’ll start with the question of severity and then cover other questions in future posts…

    Death or Injury
    So are these mitzvot concerned with hazards that can cause any injury or just lethal hazards?

    Most rishonim understand the gemara(בבא קמא נ:, נא.) and it’s 10 tefach limit as implying that these mitzvot are only concerned with hazards which might cause death. As the Meiri says there(ד”ה בית)

    יראה מכאן שאין מצות מעקה לחשש נזקים אלא לחשש מוות

    On the other hand, there is the baraita of Rebbi Natan, brought several places in the gemara(בבא קמא טו:,בבא קמא מו.,כתובות מא:), and used in discussing cases of potential injury, not death:

    רבי נתן אומר מניין שלא יגדל אדם כלב רע בתוך ביתו ואל יעמיד סולם רעוע בתוך ביתו ת”ל לא תשים דמים בביתך

    The Sefer Hachinuch(תקס”ז) takes these gemaras at face value and includes nezikin under the mitzva of לא תשים דמים, although he still says that מעקה is only concerned with lethal hazards(תקלח).

    Rav Soloveichik, on the other hand, explains these gemaras according to the other shita, saying that chachamim made a gezeira extending the issur to include nezikin”

    #1539057

    yitzchokm
    Participant

    The little I know,
    Again, R Moshe explicitly did not forbid it.

    #1539074

    yitzchokm
    Participant

    Ok

    I’m not going to argue with Rav Lechem Shevet blog and “Toraht Brisk”.
    I’ll stick with R Moshe.

    #1539198

    Health
    Participant

    yitzchokm –
    “Ok
    I’ll stick with R Moshe.”

    I posted this in 2012:
    “Even if he held Mutter, I hold nowadays he would say Ossur because at that time noone knew about second-hand smoke. How could it be Mutter because it’s next to impossible to smoke without someone – somewhere breathing it in? Even if there is a Heter to hurt yourself, how could there be a Heter to Mazik s/o else?!?!?”

    Also over there PBA wrote That Dayan Fisher held Mutter.
    Even if you have 2 Mattering – the Most Asser.
    Halacha K’rabim!

    #1539203

    RBS_gimmel
    Participant

    look, i’m a huge opponent of smoking, i’ve been around this world for over a half a century and never put a cig in my mouth (and IYH for the 2nd 1/2 century too 🙂 )
    BUT, i must say this, that i believe the issur of v’nishmartem is only if the person will die that minute, like jumping off a cliff, or whatever
    but if it’s just a disease that accrues in one’s body based on poor habits, it’s certainly not a good idea, but i don’t think a person is specifically “oiver” on v’nishmartem
    ALSO, how can we justify the weekly intake of kugel, kishke, cholent, and the like (besides for the lack of regular exercise) ?

    #1539248

    The little I know
    Participant

    RBS:

    You created a new halacha, that ונשמרתם involves only immediate threat to life. Either recognize this as a חידוש and take credit (and responsibility) for that, or provide a reference and citation for this. I do not believe this opinion at all, and would be shocked to hear this in the name of any posek, present or past. Shock me please.

    In earlier comments, I referenced the sefer חיים ללא עישון. The poskim quoted in that sefer refer to ונשמרתם all the time, and there is not a single instance of this being an immediate threat. Do yourself a favor. Review what these Gedolei Yisroel say, and form your opinions once you have received their guidance.

    #1539473

    RBS_gimmel
    Participant

    little that i know: you’re right, i don’t have a reference, but i believe i heard it on a shiur – so def the onus is on me to prove it, thanks.

    #1539433

    yitzchokm
    Participant

    Health,

    You say??????!????

    And YOU are??????

    You sound like Tendler, spewing nonsense that R Moshe WOULD HAVE said knowing today’s medical advances, THAT brain-dead is halachic death. Nonsense.

    It’s not osser according to R Moshe. Period.

    I understand thats not to your liking, but that’s the fact.

    #1540333

    Health
    Participant

    yitzchokm – “Health,
    You say??????!????
    And YOU are????
    You sound like Tendler, spewing nonsense that R Moshe WOULD HAVE said knowing today’s medical advances, THAT brain-dead is halachic death. Nonsense.”

    No, I didn’t even learn in YU!
    The Little I Know quoted R’ D. Feinstein – I’ll repeat from above:
    “R’ Dovid shlit”a stated, the teshuvah was based on the data available and provided at that time. With today’s data, the psak is clearly ossur.”

    So tell me – is it only by Smoking that you hold like R’ Moshe & Dayan Fisher or you always go with the Yochid against the Rabim, in every case?!?

    #1540353

    Undercover Bochur
    Participant
    #1540376

    The little I know
    Participant

    UB:

    Is there a rational way you can make your comment?

    As of today, the most reliable go-to person on psokim from Reb Moshe ZT”L is Reb Dovid shlit”a. He does not need to “change a psak”, just to provide us with the Daas Torah of his father – rebbe muvhak. No, he is not a kofer, or any other nasty name you want to dump on him. I would oppose any effort to be mevazeh a Talmid Chochom like him. You should be ashamed of anyone who would do that. We chapp the gadlus of Reb Moshe as well as the gadlus of Reb Dovid.

    Reb Moshe did not ever pasken a heter for smoking. If you reread his teshuvah, he stated clearly that no one should start smoking. Pretty much, anyone this post addresses is not old enough to have continued smoking which began before 1962. So stop the foolishness.

    #1540388

    ndslgm
    Participant

    theres the sheatas hamaharsha that “v’nishmartem” is only refering to ruchnius

    #1540415

    yitzchokm
    Participant

    The following is a kol korah regarding smoking, from the most widely accepted rabanim of yesteryear. Notice, smoking isn’t forbidden, it’s extremely frowned upon, and people are urged not to smoke and to stop smoking if possible. It’s not forbidden.

    We hereby appeal to our precious, beloved young folk who are not yet addicted to smoking, the bad habit whose end result can be very bitter: Please, dear brothers, do not do harm to yourselves and do not contaminate your surroundings by taking up this evil habit. Our holy Torah is a code of life which we must live by. Hashem wants us to guard our health so that we will be able to serve Him. Far be it from us to take this matter of health lightly, all the more so in an area which doctors are convinced is very damaging. Whoever can avoid smoking and prevent others from doing so, is obligated therein.

    Whoever has already succumbed to this habit is obligated to try to the best of his ability to wean himself from it. He must surely refrain from smoking in a public place where others can inhale the smoke.

    Yosef Sholom Eliashiv

    Aharon Yehuda Leib Steinman

    Moshe Shmuel Shapiro

    Michel Yehuda Lefkowitz

    S. Nissim Karelitz

    Shmuel Auerbach

    Via shemayisrael

    Interesting enough, in 2012, the little I know claimed that these very same people declared smoking as an absolute issue. That’s disingenuous and misleading.

    Is smoking mutar?

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