January 31, 2011 6:51 pm at 6:51 pm #1014934
I for one am not worried about what would happen if no one is drafted.
That’s what Yoshiyahu said.January 31, 2011 7:04 pm at 7:04 pm #1014935
“I’m happy the IDF united Jerusalem in 1967”
I recite Hallel on Yom Yerushalayim every year as a reminder of who was really responsible for that miracle.January 31, 2011 7:05 pm at 7:05 pm #1014936ProfessionalMember
Derech, its easy to be a groyseeh knocker sitting in Brooklyn, going to Miami for winter vacation, catskills for summers. Move to Chevron, spend there some time and then tell us how much bitachon you have.January 31, 2011 7:05 pm at 7:05 pm #1014937
Mammash…I would humbly amend this to ” I like that the IDF with God’s help united Jerusalem in 1967 . . .” You are 100% right, I should have mentioned that as well….thank you for bringing it to my attention…January 31, 2011 7:19 pm at 7:19 pm #1014938
I live in E”Y
Although I still disagree with your rephrasing of mikehall’s sentence, you at least agree that Hashem had something to do with it.
Let me rephrase.
The Yerushalmi says that Rav Yudin sent Rav Chiya, Rav Ami and Rav Asi to check out the town in E”Y. They get to this one town and can’t find anybody learning Torah. They ask the people of the town, ‘Bring the guards of the city.’ The people of the city bring the guards of the city. They [the Rabbis] say to them, these aren’t the guards of the city- they are the DESTROYERS of the city. So the people of the city ask ‘then who are the guards of the city?’ They answer back ‘The scholars’.
So the Yerushalmi says that actual guards are destroyers and the people who spend their time learning are the guardians. Comes along you who says ‘No I’m happy that there is a draft to the army to build our soldier base, so that we were able to unite Jerusalem’.
Is this accurate?
Come on you know that I’m going to bring Chizkiyahu in here.January 31, 2011 7:19 pm at 7:19 pm #1014939
No, I will enter with Canadian passport…. I was born outside of IsraelJanuary 31, 2011 7:23 pm at 7:23 pm #1014940
I posted last night a new topic ” Army “. I cant believe it has been removed by moderator? OMG!!!January 31, 2011 8:37 pm at 8:37 pm #1014941
Derech HaMelech…your asking me if I am happy that the IDF, with Hashems help united Jerusalem 1n 1967?? Well, for the record…you bet I am…I’m a zionist and proud of it…January 31, 2011 8:59 pm at 8:59 pm #1014943
I live in E”Y on the wrong side of the green line. I have mentioned this in other threads as well.January 31, 2011 9:01 pm at 9:01 pm #1014944
Please do. The best of both worlds is the soldier-citizen army.
The current approximation of that is the Nachal Chareidi and Hesder. I wish every soldier was one. (and we agree on the current Tzahal’s issues for a Torah Jew).January 31, 2011 9:14 pm at 9:14 pm #1014945mamashtakahMember
The IDF is our hishtadlut. It’s unfortunate Israel needs a draft, it’s unfortunate Israel needs an army, but that’s the way the world runs.
So DHM, what would you have said in 1948? That the Hagana should disband because Hashem is protecting us? Or 1967? Or 1973? What would have happened to all of the scholars if there was no army?
Put your trust in Hashem first and Tzahal second, but we are not on the madreiga to be able to depend on miracles.January 31, 2011 9:33 pm at 9:33 pm #1014946
mamashtakah…well said. This reminds me of a story…
A man is on a boat, a wave throws him overboard and he prays to be saved. Along comes another boat, they try to help him, but he yells to them to leave him alone, that only Hashem will save him…along comes another boat, but again he refuses to be helped, he finally drowns and goes to shamayim…there he says; “I was a good person, I davend and learnt all day, why didn’t you save me in the water”….the answer, I tried, why do you think I sent you all the boats…January 31, 2011 9:41 pm at 9:41 pm #1014947
Your being a zionist was not the point. It was your pointing to the army as the source of the victory.
Please go back the Yerushalmi I quoted earlier and explained to me why an army is necessary. To me the Yerushalmi is suggesting that the soldiers are destroyers and it is ONLY the lomdei Torah that are protecting the city. I am sure you can see why I am drawing these parallels from that Yerushalmi. There is no such thing as ‘the best of both worlds’ when it comes to Torah. Whenever we are engaged in anything that is not Torah – even if it is another mitzvah we are not doing the ideal. It might be what Hashem wants from us, but that is from His perspective. I urge you again to pick up the sefer Binyan Olam. I really feel you especially will understand what its about.
First I was going to make a tirade about your second paragraph. Instead I offer the following. Can you go back to the Yerushalmi that I quoted earlier in this thread and explain to me your position in light of the Yerushalmi. Especially I would like you to explain how to understand your comment “What would have happened to all of the scholars if there was no army?” in conjunction to that Yerushalmi.
You are mistaken. Believing that learning Torah itself will protect us from anything is not depending on miracles. Hashem put into the teva of the world that the sun rises during the day, rain comes out of the clouds and learning Torah protects the individual and the klal. This is not a miracle that we are talking about but nature.
And NEVER put your FAITH in the army. This is bfeirush a pasuk.
???-?????????? ??????????? ??????-?????, ??????? ??? ?????????February 1, 2011 12:03 am at 12:03 am #1014948ItcheSrulikMember
Derech HaMelech: You quoted the pasuk stating ??? ????? ??? ??? ?? ?? ???? ??? The rest of the very next pasuk reads ??????????? ??? ?????? ????????? ???? ???? ???????? ???? ????? ????????? ?????. That implies hishtadlus.
Before the flamewar starts, I just want to add something else. While I disagree with you on most issues, as someone who learns Rav Kook and lives in America, I believe that in certain realms of ruchniyus I do not come up to your toes.February 1, 2011 12:30 am at 12:30 am #1014949Sister BearMember
whats the deal with girls and the Israeli army?? Also, if you never lived in Israel (lets say a boy) but he’s Israeli will he get drafted??February 1, 2011 12:46 am at 12:46 am #1014950rockymountainsMember
My husband was born in Eretz Yisoel,his parents are Americans.They lived in E”Y for the year he was born only.My children are considered Israeli citizens by the Israeli gov’t.My sons learning in E’Y claimed no knowledge of their fathers birth place on their student visas as recommended by their Roshei Yeshivos,they have come back to the states for Pesach and returned to E’y without problem.My daughter in Sem this year tried the same but her student visa was rejected.It seems that the Israeli gov’t is starting to crack down on this sort of thing and ran my husbands name thru some sort of data bank that came up with the fact that he was born in E’Y. My daughter now needs a Israeli passport and army exclusion if/when she wants to return to the states.February 1, 2011 1:11 am at 1:11 am #1014951
rockymountains…”My sons learning in E’Y claimed no knowledge of their fathers birth place on their student visas as recommended by their Roshei Yeshivos”…..
I want to make sure I understand, the Rabbi, the Rosh Yeshiva, recommended you lie????…Do you not see a problem with this?February 1, 2011 2:08 am at 2:08 am #1014952
if your already 35 it shouldnt be a problem to get permission since your no longer army age. Go to israeli consul and speak to the guy to get a letter you will need to get in. Dont change your namd they have caught people. Also its not so easy to renounce eitherFebruary 1, 2011 2:14 am at 2:14 am #1014953
oh and even if you givd them the canadian passport they can still find out. I know someone this happened
to. Just go through the legal motions. Youll be much better off. Good luckFebruary 1, 2011 2:18 am at 2:18 am #1014954shlishiMember
on the beginning of this discussion you said you were trying to renounce. what ever happened with that effort???February 1, 2011 3:19 am at 3:19 am #1014955rockymountainsMember
to mikehall12382,they left the space for fathers place of birth blank,I am not sure what they would have done if asked directly.February 1, 2011 3:21 am at 3:21 am #1014956
didnt renounce cuz complicating. But did get permission to go . Also realized israel doesnt know my husband has a kid or ir even marriedFebruary 1, 2011 3:24 am at 3:24 am #1014957Sister BearMember
Would they be suspicious if you came on one passport and left on another??
Also a girl going when she is 18-19 like for sem and is Israeli (born there) will she have problems?
Wanna know whats pathetic, I went to get a passport and they were like place of birth and I was like Jerusalem, Israel but they wouldn’t put Israel on so it just says Jerusalem cuz of political issues, like seriously??February 1, 2011 3:33 am at 3:33 am #1014958
sister bear, go to the consulate. they will most probably find some loophole for you since you left before army age and going for school. just as a btw you would anyway need both passports to fly there.February 1, 2011 6:16 am at 6:16 am #1014959
I’m not denying that their is a metziyus called hishtadlus. Especially by parnassah which these psukim are talking about. Although I think I will disagree on some people here on what can constitute hishtadlus. I did explain though that in the case of learning what the army is doing is not called hishtadlus.
I obviously don’t learn any R’ Kook and I don’t think anything else you wrote was in any way connected to this discussion.
When the government threatens your Yiddishkeit and you can get away with just lying- you do it. And if its a girl- the Chazon Ish already said yaharog v’al yavor.
I renewed my passport here before I made aliyah and on place of issue it just says ‘Jerusalem’ too.February 1, 2011 6:44 am at 6:44 am #1014960mamashtakahMember
Hashem put into the teva of the world that the sun rises during the day, rain comes out of the clouds and learning Torah protects the individual and the klal. This is not a miracle that we are talking about but nature.
So go wander with a gemara into Gaza, Ramalla, Shechem, and sit down on a bench and learn. See what happens then. We have to be on a certain madreiga for our learning to protect us. Unfortunately, we are not there. Our world is imperfect.
whats the deal with girls and the Israeli army??
They will be drafted, unless they have gone before a rabbinical board to certify that they are frum and do not want to go into Tzahal. At that point, they can either do a year of sheerut leumi or opt out all together.
My sons learning in E’Y claimed no knowledge of their fathers birth place on their student visas as recommended by their Roshei Yeshivos . . .
Am I the only one that has a problem with this? The Roshei Yeshivot recommended they lie on their forms?
Would they be suspicious if you came on one passport and left on another??
I’m pretty sure this is illegal. The border control people look through the passport before they stamp it; they will see there is no entry visa.February 1, 2011 7:20 am at 7:20 am #1014961
thanks guys for your help. kinda scary to go to embassy after i have left Israel for 10 years. Would love to visit tho, love Israel, just not my place to live. I prefer CanadaFebruary 1, 2011 8:05 am at 8:05 am #1014962AnonymousInactive
Please forgive me. Many posts in this topic have been submitted. I am new here and do not know rules for posting. Other than the above post, nothing here will be approved until the normal hour moderators come on.
Sorry to those of you who do not understand where I am coming from.February 1, 2011 9:09 am at 9:09 am #1014963m in IsraelMember
As I haven’t researched this super recently, these details should be checked out, but the general idea is definitely accurate:
This discussion (renouncing citizenship/ IDF service/ visiting Israel, etc.) appears to be involving individuals who do not live in Israel. An Israeli citizen (by virtue of being born in Israel, having an Israeli parent, etc.) is not obligated to perform his IDF service as long as his permanent residence is abroad. He/ She is allowed to visit Israel (there is a maximum amount of time per year that I don’t remember), and can spend 10 months ONE time as a student. However, you MUST follow all the rules and get the proper documentation. That includes an Israeli passport (and with the computerized records nowadays, there is a very strong chance they will know you are Israeli even if you try to enter on a foreign passport), and getting your official deferment from the Lishkat Hagiyus (Draft office). (This can be done through the embassy in the U.S.)
Religious girls are automatically exempt from army service (not simply a “deferment” which puts it off), so if you are a frum girl/woman, it may be worth it applying for that exemption rather than simply the non- resident exemption. You would have to prove that you are really religious, and they’ve gotten stricter about that lately, but if you really are, it shouldn’t be a problem.
My husband was born in Israel and moved to the US as a baby. He visited Israel numerous times, and even learned in yeshiva there, but was careful to keep his documents current.
If at any point you move to Israel (via official Aliyah or not), the deferment is no longer valid, and one would have to report to the lishkat hagiyus to determine what army obligations one has (dependent on many factors such as age, whether one is married with kids, job, etc.), and either perform the IDF service or get the appropriate paperwork for an exemption or further deferral.
BTW, renouncing citizenship can also have an effect on your kids, particularly if they ever choose to make Aliyah — it can impact their Aliyah benefits. Make sure to look into that as well before choosing to renounce their citizenship. (Obviously if you renounce your own citizenship before they are born, then this won’t apply as the won’t be citizens to begin with.)February 1, 2011 2:20 pm at 2:20 pm #1014964
Whenever we are engaged in anything that is not Torah – even if it is another mitzvah we are not doing the ideal. It might be what Hashem wants from us, but that is from His perspective.
What in the world does that mean? One should learn even if that is not what Hashem wants?
Sorry, not my religion.
Besides, every Jewish nation, from Moshe Rabbainu on, had soldiers. Perhaps they were not a “standing army”, and more like “reserves”, but they did fight when required. And they were “drafted” when needed to fight. (see many times in Tanach with David Hamelech, Devorah, etc.)
You completely missed my point, BTW. You assume you are righteous enough that you don’t need a physical army. You, as others before you, (i.e. Yoshiyahu Hamelech) are incorrect. Don’t feel bad, those greater than you have made this mistake.
I know we will disagree on this one (due to our different Hashkafos, as we have gone through before), so I will not bother you further.February 1, 2011 2:29 pm at 2:29 pm #1014965
Derech HaMelech….”When the government threatens your Yiddishkeit and you can get away with just lying…”
Are we talking about the same government that provides funding to brochers so they can learn all day without getting a job???Sounds pretty nice to me…
“obviously don’t learn any R’ Kook”
Well, maybe you should?February 1, 2011 2:35 pm at 2:35 pm #1014966
mamashtakah…I agree with you and already stated I have a BIG issue with the Rosh Yeshiva suggesting they lie on their visa. Terrible, just terrible….February 1, 2011 2:47 pm at 2:47 pm #1014967
m in israel- its not always so simple that you moved so your exempt- especially if you moved after army age. they gave my husband a very hard time giving him permission to go to israel, even though his permanent residence is abroad. they look at it as you ran away from the draft. your husband was a baby that’s why it’s much easier.
canadian mike- don’t worry the embassy won’t deport you or anything.
I know the guy we got in America was pretty nice.February 1, 2011 2:54 pm at 2:54 pm #1014968
Sorry I was in a rush when I wrote that post. What I meant to say was that Talmud Torah kneged kulam. Learning Torah has precedence over all the other mitzvos. RaShB”Y and his chevraya didn’t even daven because of their hasmoda b’Torah.
The sefer Binyan Olam brings the TaZ in Y”D 251 S”K 6 that explains that even though there is no mitzvah that stops us from doing hatzolas nefashos but there is a bigger zchus to someone who is not presented witha case of hatzolas nefashos than to someone that is.
So what I meant was that even though we are required to sometimes stop learning to do other mitzvos, that is Hashem’s cheshbon. From our point of view though we need to understand that any mitzvah that is not talmud Torah is not as great as talmud Torah.
I urge everybody who is stable in his derech to pick up this sefer Boney Olam. He has two haskamos one from Rav Chatzkel Levinstein and one from Rav Yehidah Zev Segol both of which praise the sefer and not the mechaber.February 1, 2011 3:06 pm at 3:06 pm #1014969
Are we talking about the same government that provides funding to brochers so they can learn all day without getting a job???Sounds pretty nice to me…
So what you are saying is, since they provide funding for yeshivos and kollelim that makes them nice? They also let chazir be sold in stores across the country. Do you condone that as well?
What does one thing have to do with the other. The fact that they help support yeshivos does not give them a hand into how we are mechanech our children. Hence Chinuch Atzmai. It does not give them a right to say we demand your children to place them in makomos sakanos. It does not give them a right to force our children to be in a place where they may have to be mechalel Shabbos.
And no I don’t think I should be learning Rav Kook yet since I don’t feel confident that I will be able to filter out the krum parts. For now I have to leave them aside just as the gedolim that I follow left his side.February 1, 2011 4:06 pm at 4:06 pm #1014970
My question to you is if you hate the state so much, why are you willing to accept money from them…I know I think Drug dealers are wrong, and if one were to give me money I would never accept that…February 1, 2011 4:28 pm at 4:28 pm #1014971
“I don’t think I should be learning Rav Kook yet since I don’t feel confident that I will be able to filter out the krum parts”
While I am not a talmid of Rav Kook — I identify more with the Religious Zionism of Rav Reines and Rav Soloveitchik — I would never call the writings of an acknowledged gedol of Rav Kook “krum”. That even applies to something that has been unanimously rejected by klal Yisrael such as his position on women voting. (We follow Rav Uziel who disputed Rav Kook on that.)
I’ve also been told by Rav Kook’s talmidim that his writings do not translate well into English, which makes them less accessible to those for whom our first language is English.February 1, 2011 4:38 pm at 4:38 pm #1014972
I think he means “krum” as not compatable into his own Hashkafa, just like that of Rav Yoshe Ber, Rav Elyashiv, The Satmer Rov, etc. all have Shittos that are not compatable with other Gedolim’s Hashkafos.
He would probably say the same for Rav Miller & the Satmer Rov, let alone Rav Yoshe Ber, Rav Yaakov & Rav Shlomo Zalman Aurbach.February 1, 2011 5:47 pm at 5:47 pm #1014973
So you are saying:
You support people’s freedom to raise chazir in E”Y so long as they don’t physically harm anyone.
You do not conscribe to the saying kol yisrael areivim zeh lazeh.
You believe that provided they greases the wheels, E”Y shuold have access to our children.
You disagree with the Yerushalmi that I brought earlier.
As to your question. You know, I think America is wrong for instituting the Blue Laws but I have no qualms with taking money from them. The Israeli government is no different.
AS g_a_w said, yes I mean those hashkafos that are neged the ones that I learn from my Rebbeim.
However I would like to add that there is a difference between R’ Kook, R’ JB Soloveitchik, (don’t know R’ Reines) etc and Rav Aurbach, the Satmer Rav, Rav Elyashiv et al.
The difference is that there was no room for conversation between the former and the latter:
-When R’ Kook’s views became known Rav Hutner distanced himself from Rav Kook.
-On the other hand I heard from a firsthand witness that that after the Satmar Rav left the room that Rav Ahron Kutler was in someone commented that ‘now that the Satmer Rebbe left we can really talk’ to which Rav Ahron said ‘now that the Satmer Rebbe left, there is no one left to talk to’.
-Rav Shach privately agreed with anti-zionists but felt that there was more toeles to making the party.
Over here in E”Y at least the dichotomy between these two camps is quite clear. With the exception of Lubavitchers themselves, anyone who follows the first group does not call themselves chareidi while those in the second do.February 1, 2011 6:06 pm at 6:06 pm #1014974
DHM: As others will point out (so I will spare them), Rav Yoshe Ber was not someone whom the Gedolim distanced themselves from.
(The examples have been brought in other threads).
E”Y does seem to have this strong separation between Charaedi & not, vs. Chutz (specificly America) we are more concerned with being a Torah Yid, and being more inclusive in that (even from places like Lakewood).
That is part of what I refer to as “Eretz Yisroel Hashkafa”.February 1, 2011 6:11 pm at 6:11 pm #1014975
P.S. I have no clue what “Rav Kook’s views” are. All I know is that they put out an awesome version of Ritva & Rashba.February 1, 2011 6:15 pm at 6:15 pm #1014976
You’re a very organized person aren’t you. I notice you like to compartmentalize everything. Anyway you could be right that this hashkafa is exclusive to E”Y, I’ve been here long enough to pick it up. However, I’ve never met a Brisker who called Rabbi JB Soloveitck ‘The Rav’ and I suspect that this is more because of what I mentioned earlier.February 1, 2011 6:31 pm at 6:31 pm #1014977
At least I would consider Dr. Rabbi Moshe Meiselman as “Brisker”, and he says Rav Yoshe Ber is his Rebbe.
Unless only REAL Briskers don’t call Rav Yoshe Ber “the Rav” (which I do not, that is not my Hashkafa either).
As far as being “very organized”, I (and Ittisa) wish I was. 🙂
I just see in you a microcosm of the stereotypical Charaeidi in EY. Not that it is all inclusive (I have “Chareidi” friends in EY who are nothing like this), but this is the PC groupspeak (for lack of a better term) that goes around, enforceable by Shunning.
Not that it is a problem there, either. That is what makes (B’H) all Yidden different, but all with the same goal.February 1, 2011 6:32 pm at 6:32 pm #1014978February 1, 2011 6:34 pm at 6:34 pm #1014979
Rabbi Yitzchak Yaakov Reines was a rosh yeshiva in Lithuania who was a pioneer in two things: First, he added secular studies to his yeshiva almost a half century before Yeshiva College was founded in America as an adjunct to the RIETS yeshiva, and he was the first leader of the “Mizrachi” religious Zionist movement.
“Rav Yoshe Ber was not someone whom the Gedolim distanced themselves from”
Correct. In particular, he was very close to Rav Hutner (with whom he had attended the University of Berlin), the Lubavicher Rebbe, Rav Kotler, and his cousin Rav Moshe Feinstein, even though they disagreed with him on a lot of things. And The Rav was so respected by the charedi community that they made him a member of the Moetzet Gedolei HaTorah of Aguath Israel of America while still in his 30s.February 1, 2011 6:36 pm at 6:36 pm #1014980
“I mean those hashkafos that are neged the ones that I learn from
Ok, thanks for the clarification. “Krum” has such a negative connotation that I avoid using it for anyone who isn’t obviously non-orthodox.February 1, 2011 6:48 pm at 6:48 pm #1014981its_meMember
mikehall12382: my friend has sent his sons to a mainstream yeshiva in ey (same problem as rockmountain), and the mashgiach told them TO MAKE UP a new set of parents to apply for student visas. they did and had no problems from the idf. there is no mitzvah to fall into the trap of serving in the idf.February 1, 2011 6:55 pm at 6:55 pm #1014982
R’ Kook was a brilliant Charedi talmid Chochom who became a zionist. We call the Mosad Rav Kook sefarim ‘Kook Books’. They have a sale every year around pesach time on the Rashba Ritva and Ran but it still comes out to a few hundred dollars so I haven’t been able to get them yet.
Nice try in pulling me into a No True Scotsman. Did Rabbi Moshe Meiselman learn in any of the Brisker Yeshivos?
My hashkafa regarding the gedolim aside, I’ll behonest. I’m not really sure where you are coming from. I try to bring sources to the best of my ability from widely accepted seforim.
Would you believe I went to a school called Mizrachi L’Banim for much of my elementary school life?February 1, 2011 6:57 pm at 6:57 pm #1014983
mikehall12382: my friend has sent his sons to a mainstream yeshiva in ey (same problem as rockmountain), and the mashgiach told them TO MAKE UP a new set of parents to apply for student visas. they did and had no problems from the idf. there is no mitzvah to fall into the trap of serving in the idf.
Fascinating (with the raised eyebrow).February 1, 2011 7:04 pm at 7:04 pm #1014984
So you also recognize that the Israeli government is no better that the American government for the Jews then. So if I wouldn’t send my children to the American army just because I live in America why should I send my children to the Israeli one?
I am familiar with the connotations of the word
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