June 22, 2022 3:48 pm at 3:48 pm #2099276
I was reading about the missing bucher in Israel, hopefully IYH he will be found safe soon, I could not get over the differance of parenting style in the Israel vs the US. The bucher ran around unsupervised since his bar mitzva, going into Arab Villages, hitching with all types, no cell phone, no checking in with parents, my sons would never have gotten away with behavior like that, same with me and my parents.
I hope this boy will be found soon and this is NOT criticism of the parents, just an observation of a more relaxed parenting sytle in IsraelJune 22, 2022 4:46 pm at 4:46 pm #2099406ujmParticipant
Parenting style in the US was also like that until about 40 years ago.
In any event, in the US Yidden parent very differently than American goyim. And even within frum communities you’ll find vastly different parenting styles between Williamsburg compared to Lakewood compared to Five Towns.June 22, 2022 10:36 pm at 10:36 pm #2099456☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
Why the assumption that it’s a general parenting style rather than one specific case?June 22, 2022 11:22 pm at 11:22 pm #2099474
‘And even within frum communities you’ll find vastly different parenting styles between Williamsburg compared to Lakewood compared to Five Towns’
Assuming this is a serious comment, HOW are the parenting styles different as between Willy and Lkwd??June 22, 2022 11:24 pm at 11:24 pm #2099478
@Daas, because I have seen similar type behavior with other children in IsraelJune 22, 2022 11:38 pm at 11:38 pm #2099482
I live in Israel and I can verify this is a general parenting style. I see kids as young as 2 (yes, 2) in the park unsupervised by any adult, or supervised by an older sibling (who is too busy playing with their friends to actually watch or take responsibility for their younger brother or sister). I see 4 year olds walking to gan by themselves. “Street kids.” It’s lazy, naive, and to me, shocking. I do not let my young kids go around with adult supervision (and the adult has to be “approved” by me). I have had countless experiences of people in my neighborhood calling around saying “Has anyone seen my 2-y-o? They were in the park earlier and have disappeared. Please daven!” How about “Please do hishtadlus and take responsibility for the many kids you insist on having?” If your kid wants to go to the park, you go with them, or you pay out for a responsible babysitter. Growing up in England, I was never allowed to go around on my own that young. This is something I happen to feel very strongly about, and I’m constantly going against the grain in my neighborhood by insisting on dropping off and picking up my kids from gan and every playdate rather than walking home on their own. Do people think the world is safe, or something? It’s not.June 23, 2022 12:04 am at 12:04 am #2099488
I meant “I do not let my young kids go around WITHOUT adult supervision”June 23, 2022 1:44 am at 1:44 am #2099498ujmParticipant
When I was a kid, I walked to school uphill both ways in the snow, with no shoes or jacket.June 23, 2022 10:49 am at 10:49 am #2099536Yabia OmerParticipant
Israeli style: breeds independent, resourceful, happy kids.
American: breeds fearful, entitled, dependent kids. Plus American parents are too over protective, anxious etc.June 23, 2022 10:52 am at 10:52 am #2099553
UJM: Thanks for the clarification…..assuming you lived downhill from the cheider, you would have to walk “uphill” in the morning but in theory, that would result in a “downhill” walk to return home, unless your parents moved during the day to a new home further uphill from the cheider, which would reflect TWO uphill barefoot treks in the snow, but only for ONE day. Perhaps you are speaking metaphorically in terms of your raising up your neshama through the time you spent learning your alfeph beis, harassing the girls at the adjacent beis yakov during recess or building LEGO models of the beis hamikdash such that every trek in the snow was an uphill spiritual journey.June 23, 2022 10:54 am at 10:54 am #2099555
@UJM, that is very impressive, but when you were 12/13/14 were you hitchhiking all over the country taking hitches with know drug dealers and molesters? disappearing for a week at a time and no one knew where you were? parading around in hostile areas where people were ready to kill you?
If I would have done any of the above my parents would have tanned my hide so bad I would have never forgotten it and you can be sure I would have never done such a stupid thing again.June 23, 2022 1:22 pm at 1:22 pm #2099684
Gadol, thanks for explaining this old adage: of course, it means that the person should always go “up” – when he leaves the house and when he comes back! To remind yourself of this practice, you should always leave the house from the basement so that then you go “up”, and then come back to the first floor (or whatever is the top floor when you live on a terrace).June 23, 2022 4:02 pm at 4:02 pm #2099700RuggiepoParticipant
Dear Common Saychel,
I dont usually comment on these things but my heart is crying when I read your letter. You have no idea what so ever about the life of this boy – how can you judge his family? Did you ever stop to think that maybe there is something you don’t know about? Perhaps mental illness? Or something else? Not that I know, but you don’t either. And the family has their right to privacy. This touches me deeply because I have a mildly mentaly retarded son with comorbities of mental illness, who actually looks pretty normal, and Boruch Hashem I normally don’t get judgmental comments like yours, but it really hurts when I do…..So please be kind….June 23, 2022 4:03 pm at 4:03 pm #2099710
AAQ: But chazal bring down the inyan of how to always be “oleh” on returning home when you live in a cave as some of the troglodytes clearly prefer.June 23, 2022 6:31 pm at 6:31 pm #2099751
@Ruggipo, First of all I wrote about different parenting styles in the US vs Israel, Israel being more relaxed, I wrote this is NOT about this particular family.
FYI I have a son who is high functioning ASD and once walked away from his Yeshiva Shabbaton and called me on motza to tell me where he was , this happened once and there was reprecussions for this behavior, the opposite of saying this behavior is just peachy keenJune 23, 2022 6:33 pm at 6:33 pm #2099756NechomahParticipant
“when you were 12/13/14 were you hitchhiking all over the country taking hitches with know drug dealers and molesters? disappearing for a week at a time and no one knew where you were? parading around in hostile areas where people were ready to kill you?”
I’m curious where you read this about the boy?June 23, 2022 8:06 pm at 8:06 pm #2099835
@Nechoma, this past week interview with his parents in the AMIJune 23, 2022 10:39 pm at 10:39 pm #2099874DovidBTParticipant
When I was a kid, I walked to school uphill both ways in the snow, with no shoes or jacket.
When I was a kid, we were too poor to have snow. We had to pretend there was snow by walking slowly.June 24, 2022 7:59 am at 7:59 am #2099910Shmiras HaloshonParticipant
While in general Israeli parenting a lot more relaxed than American parenting, this was a special situation and we should not be judging.July 1, 2022 4:59 pm at 4:59 pm #2102412modernParticipant
I was never supervised by parents after kindergarten. I just went out and played. As long as I came back before dinner there were no problems. This was the 1960s and 1970s.
US parents today are damaging their kids by making all their decisions for them. By the time they make it to college they are still immature and irresponsible. Israel is the place to raise kids today.July 1, 2022 6:45 pm at 6:45 pm #2102427
modern > I was never supervised by parents after kindergarten.
This is a statistical mistake. You see how many people turned out well after not being supervised/going to bad schools/etc – except you do not see those who got into an accident, went with wrong people, intermarried…July 5, 2022 7:46 am at 7:46 am #2103343ZushyParticipant
When I was a kid, I walked to school uphill both ways in the snow, with no shoes or jacket.
What in the world?
When I was a kid kid’s shoes were confiscated as a punishment, and I remember kids without shoes on the school bus – this was before people had Shabbos shoes – but it was never done in bad weather or snow.
BTW there was an Israeli “yoreid” with us, and I remember he was very unbothered about losing his shoes, and he would play soccer without themJuly 5, 2022 11:40 am at 11:40 am #2103364
The issue here in the U.S. was referenced as “free-range” parenting, most notably publicized in a 2015 incident in Silver Springs MD. A Jewish family (redacted) became a subject of public controversy for allowing their 6 and 10 YO children to walk to and from a local park on their own. About halfway through the walk, the children were stopped by the police and driven home after someone reported seeing them abandoned. The encounter led to Montgomery County Child Protective Services (CPS) investigating the family for neglect. On the next encounter, the kids were detained by the police and held for several hours without being allowed to contact their parents. Neither the police nor CPS contacted the children’s parents directly, and they only located their kids later by calling 911. The issue was debated extensively on local media and ultimate resolved by a new Maryland policy clarifying the obligations of parents with regard to oversight of their kids (aka leaving kids alone isOK unless the kids face immediate and real risk of harm based on location and circumstances).July 5, 2022 9:59 pm at 9:59 pm #2103565eishis chayilParticipant
BTW there was an Israeli “yoreid” with us, and I remember he was very unbothered about losing his shoes, and he would play soccer without them
I went out on to the enclosed tiled porch with out shoes and my mother punished me severely. I was 11.
I know in Israel its normal, its as normal as walking in the street in geulah and suddenly your shaitel or hair gets drenched from someone’s horrible dirty sponja water. it happened to me. and to many othersJuly 6, 2022 11:27 am at 11:27 am #2103742
My son told me when he was in yerusalem, a 2 1/2- 3 year toddler who can hardly talk walked alone to the grocery store handed the owner a list, and then walked out with the items. image that happening in the USJuly 6, 2022 11:28 am at 11:28 am #2103748
imagine if it was safe enough here to do thatJuly 6, 2022 10:19 pm at 10:19 pm #2103892
Current life is, on one hand, incredibly safe on average comparing with the past – we have less sickness, better healthcare and fire department, GPS, calories printed on every food item – , and, on the other hand, full of potential dangers that are very close to everyone – random people driving on your street, random people contacting kids on social media … The first leads people to understand when there is unusual danger and the second means that we need to interfere in almost every moment to prevent these dangers.
At the times when half of the kids did not survive childhood and you knew everyone in your neighborhood – comparative risk of the kid going to the store was very low.July 8, 2022 11:54 am at 11:54 am #2104448EINER-KEINERParticipant
I was once on the 402 bus line from jerusalem to bnei brak and at one stop i saw a mother putting on a 3 or 4 year old girl all by her self and telling her have fun enjoy your shabbos….in bnei brak someone waited for her by her stop…
I guess she went to a cousin/friend for shabbos just like that…..I would never let my kid do it………….July 8, 2022 11:56 am at 11:56 am #2104454
Sorry, your credibility level hovers near zeroJuly 10, 2022 8:53 pm at 8:53 pm #2104932
a 3/4 year old alone on a bus is obviously exaggerating, I have seen 6/7 year old alone on a long distance bus, I have also seen 12/13 year old boys tremping [hitching].July 10, 2022 10:16 pm at 10:16 pm #2104956SlateParticipant
Lol 😂July 11, 2022 1:07 am at 1:07 am #2105001
“imagine if it was safe enough here to do that”
It’s not safe enough to do that in Israel but since parents have too many kids to handle so they think they need to parentify their preschoolers in order to continue the cycle.July 11, 2022 1:15 am at 1:15 am #2105003
I don’t know what your thoughts behind your comment are, but generally speaking when I hear people say that I find it both offensive and ridiculous.
Someone blessed with “too” many kids doesn’t suddenly become stupid or irresponsible. There are people with poor judgment and people with good judgment, and how many kids you have is irrelevant. Why people have such a scathing dislike for people having “too many kids” is both beyond me, and anti Torah.July 11, 2022 11:12 am at 11:12 am #2105133
@syag, well said as usualJuly 11, 2022 12:44 pm at 12:44 pm #2105161
Syag, I think he said ” too many kids to handle”. For some, it would start with 1 … His point seem to be that children in larger families are more independent, which is probably true. Still, I don’t think this fully explains the difference between US and Israel. Many US families with larger families just get themselves a larger van rather than sending kids on foot.July 11, 2022 3:24 pm at 3:24 pm #2105225
“His point seem to be that children in larger families are more independent”
really?July 13, 2022 6:09 pm at 6:09 pm #2105879
IIt’s not a number that is “too many”. It has nothing to do with family size. Some people are amazing parents to their 15. Others are abusive to their 1 or two. Whether it’s because you’re too taxed or because you think it’s normal, if your situation requires you to send your toddler shopping for you then you have too many kids to handle.July 13, 2022 10:49 pm at 10:49 pm #2105940
an interesting question would be how do Israelis parent in USA and Americans in Israel – do people follow their minhagim or adopt to the local ones? or follow humros of both, as Pesachim recommends.July 13, 2022 11:58 pm at 11:58 pm #2105952
“if your situation requires you to send your toddler shopping for you then you have too many kids to handle.”
And that is exactly the point. Hashem gives us kids so we will take care of them. If a person is not willing to either 1. wait til the next day to get something from the store or 2. ask an older kid or neighbor to pick something up from the store, then they are clearly not willing to take on the responsibility of caring for a small child. If my 5-y-o daughter has a playdate (I live in Israel), I have to drop her off, pick her up, and I have to tell the mother of the house “I do not permit my daughter to go playing outside without adult supervision.” I’m still shocked I have to say this at all! Israel is not safe, the US is not safe, nowhere is safe enough for a small kid to go around on their own. Either the people who are being reckless with their children’s lives are living in denial, or they are simply lazy. There’s also chinuch issues. If these little kids are outside playing without adult supervision, how are they going to learn good middos? It’s a situation of “the blind leading the blind.”July 13, 2022 11:58 pm at 11:58 pm #2105969
What I’ve seen in larger families is the older children taking on some responsibility for “parenting” and monitoring their younger siblings. It has some really positive features in terms of providing them with a sense of responsibility and it often shows in the maturity they exhibit.July 14, 2022 12:25 am at 12:25 am #2105977
““if your situation requires you to send your toddler shopping for you then you have too many kids to handle.”
And that is exactly the point. ”
Absolutely not. As i said above, having too many kids does not make you suddenly a moron.
First of all is acknowledging that it never even happened as our teenage troll claimed.
Second, if someone’s sending their 6-year-old to the store it’s because they said who wants to go to the store and they’re six year old said I do. And this person obviously doesn’t have the judgment to realize it’s not appropriate.July 14, 2022 6:44 am at 6:44 am #2105985
“Second, if someone’s sending their 6-year-old to the store it’s because they said who wants to go to the store and they’re six year old said I do. And this person obviously doesn’t have the judgment to realize it’s not appropriate.”
There’s a difference between a 6 year old and a toddler. I have seen preschoolers going shopping but not in over a decade.
Most parents have more seichel than that.
People have an impression that if parents in Israel are sending out their very young kids on errands, then that is a sign that it is safe here. It is not safe here. Between terrorists, pedophiles and reckless drivers, anything can happen. I get emails on a relatively frequent basis about pedophiles in the neighborhood. My kids also tell me hair-raising stories about what their friends tell them happened in the park when adults weren’t around. I realize that I’m overly cautious because I don’t allow my kids to hang out outside without an adult but I have let a 7 year old do a quick run to the Makolet with a cellphone when it was right by my house.July 14, 2022 8:18 am at 8:18 am #2106046
The story my son told me was about 3 year old walking into a grocery store sucking a pacifier and not very verbal, she would not know how to use a cell, I also saw 12/13 boys tremping alone something I never saw anywhere else.
This is not because they have too many kids its because the Israelis in general have a laissez faire approach when it come to parentingJuly 14, 2022 12:38 pm at 12:38 pm #2106164
common – I apologize. I was mixing up your makolet story and the 3 year old on the bus story. While I still have my doubts about the child being that young I wouldn’t have called you a teenage troll. At least not anymore 😉
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