November 16, 2015 10:33 pm at 10:33 pm #616664
Does Israel show sufficient HaKaras HaTov to the United States for America’s defending the State of Israel for over 65 years in the international arena, at the United Nations (which authorized Israel’s creation), for vetoing anti-Israel resolutions in the United Nations Security Council countless times over the decades, for America’s defending Israel militarily over the last 65 years in her desperate hours – whether Henry Kissinger’s sending emergency arm supplies during wartime or the many other times American arm suppliers have armed Israel using American tax dollars over the past half century plus?
And, of course, there is America’s providing billions and billions of dollars in defense aid to Israel, as well as billions more in economic aid over the decades.
Where would the State be if not for America’s single-handed strong support since before Israel’s existence and ever since? One should be afraid to answer.
How does Israel manifest even a tiny bit of her tremendous HaKaras HaTov to the United States?November 17, 2015 3:34 am at 3:34 am #1112232Neville ChaimBerlinParticipant
Yes.November 17, 2015 4:01 am at 4:01 am #1112233
How?November 17, 2015 5:43 am at 5:43 am #1112234
Israel gives much more in intelligence sharing and preventing a terrorist state from being established. Not to mention the fact that all the “aid” is actually loan guarantees that lower interest rates (although Israel has never defaulted) and the monies must be spent on American products. As for Kissinger, he delayed the aid deliberately in order to extract concessions.November 17, 2015 5:47 am at 5:47 am #1112235takahmamashParticipant
God protects His land; if not America, protection would have come (and will continue to come) in some other way.November 17, 2015 5:53 am at 5:53 am #1112236american_yerushalmiParticipant
Massive intelligence sharing, much of which is related to counter-terror operations that is best not discussed too much. Extensive cooperation in designing, testing, developing advanced weapons systems,missile detection systems, advanced radar systems. These systems cost billions to develop, and “getting it right” is essential. Some years ago, Israeli pilots were training USAF pilots out in the Arizona desert and elsewhere in the extremely difficult and dangerous low-altitude flying technique they use to avoid enemy radar; something the IAF had developed several decades ago and continues to upgrade as needed.
There are other areas of cooperation in non-military matters, such as alleviating the drought in California by introducing “drip technology” irrigation techniques, and water desalination.
Tiny enough?November 17, 2015 10:46 am at 10:46 am #1112237BarryLS1Participant
Yes, Israel owes the U.S. HaKores HaTov for the good it has done, but it is not a one way street. Israel saves the U.S. far more in research and development than it was given. Most of the money stays in the U.S. and provides jobs to Americans.
Israel take military hardware, refines it and gives the changes to the U.S., Israel prevented the old Soviet Union from dominating the Middle East, which greatly benefited the U.S. Israel provides the U.S. with priceless intelligence information that the U.S. would have to spend untold billions and still probably wouldn’t get.
Then there is all the scientific and other inventions and so many more benefits, too numerous to mention in a forum like this.
At the same time, the U.S. has don’t lots to harm Israel too, causing thousands of Jewish deaths. These phony “peace” processes and forcing Israel into suicidal concessions are but one example.
Even the Pollard situation. While Pollard was wrong, he gave Israel critical intelligence information that the U.S. refused to give, which was a violation of a treaty, just to placate the Arabs. Also, Pollards sentence was far more severe than sentences given to people spying for enemy states.
It’s not one sided and it’s not a clear-cut issue.November 17, 2015 1:08 pm at 1:08 pm #1112238
Is using American citizens employed in American national security to spy against America on American soil or the Israeli prime minister coming to America to speak against the president a form of hakaras hatov?November 17, 2015 1:10 pm at 1:10 pm #1112239zahavasdadParticipant
As a US Taxpayer, Id rather my taxpapyer money go to Israel than other places
Its no Hakarat HaTov as much as spending my money as I wishNovember 17, 2015 1:43 pm at 1:43 pm #1112240
zsdad, would you like to put up a national referendum whether Americans want to send US tax money to Israel?November 17, 2015 1:46 pm at 1:46 pm #1112241
God protects His land; if not America, protection would have come (and will continue to come) in some other way.
Do you think that takes away the obligation to feel and show appreciation?November 17, 2015 2:07 pm at 2:07 pm #1112242☕️coffee addictParticipant
If that’s the case don’t give anyone Hakaras hatov because Hashem protects everyone and if not for them then someone else will do itNovember 17, 2015 2:18 pm at 2:18 pm #1112244
“Is using American citizens employed in American national security to spy against America on American soil or the Israeli prime minister coming to America to speak against the president a form of hakaras hatov? “
Probably not. But I think Israel’s responsibility to keep its citizens safe is probably more important than hakaras hatov. And Israel has other ways of showing hakaras hatov as other posters mentioned- intelligence sharing and a strategic ally in the hostile Middle East.November 17, 2015 2:22 pm at 2:22 pm #1112245feivelParticipant
These posts are very unjosephesque.
I think someone has hijacked his screen name.November 17, 2015 2:33 pm at 2:33 pm #1112246
DY- What about Tzahal protecting Israel or the Israeli government giving money to yeshivos? Shouldn’t the Charedim show hakaras hatov to the medinah?
Just like Hashem protecting Israel is not an excuse to not show hakaras hatov to the tools that Hashem uses (the US government), so too Hashem protecting Israel and funding Torah is not an excuse to not show hakaras hatov to the tools Hashem uses (Tzahal and the Israeli government).November 17, 2015 2:51 pm at 2:51 pm #1112247
Not to mention the fact that all the “aid” is actually loan guarantees that lower interest rates (although Israel has never defaulted).
Between 1974 and 1989, $16.4 billion in U.S. military loans were converted to grants (and this was the understanding from the beginning.) Indeed, all past U.S. loans to Israel have eventually been forgiven by Congress, which has undoubtedly helped Israel’s often-touted claim that they have never defaulted on a U.S. government loan. U.S. policy since 1984 has been that economic assistance to Israel must equal or exceed Israel’s annual debt repayment to the United States. Unlike other countries, which receive aid in quarterly installments, aid to Israel since 1982 has been given in a lump sum at the beginning of the fiscal year. Israel even lends some of this money back through U.S. treasury bills and collects the additional interest. In addition, there is the more than $1.5 billion in private U.S. funds that go to Israel annually in the form of $1 billion in private tax-deductible donations and $500 million in Israeli bonds. The ability of Americans to make what amounts to tax-deductible contributions to a foreign government, made possible through a number of Jewish charities, does not exist with any other country. Total U.S. aid to Israel is approximately one-third of the American foreign-aid budget, even though Israel comprises just .001 percent of the world’s population. Between 1949 and 2014 the U.S. has given Israel over $120 billion in aid, about 2/3 being military aid and the rest being economic aid.
As for Kissinger, he delayed the aid deliberately in order to extract concessions.
When you accept charity, you don’t get to set the terms.
Israel saves the U.S. far more in research and development than it was given.
No. The amount given, as noted above, is far in excess of any return.
Then there is all the scientific and other inventions and so many more benefits, too numerous to mention in a forum like this.
Of course Israel benefits from far more U.S. scientific and other inventions, such as you the internet, the telephone, medical and technological, that most of what it invents is on top of US invented intellect.
Copying and pasting without giving credit is plagiarism. Even the Islamic website that used it cited a sourceNovember 17, 2015 3:11 pm at 3:11 pm #1112248technical21Participant
I think that right now and always, Israel’s biggest priority is to defend itself from attacks. Any country that stands in the way of Israeli defense against Arab terror is a hindrance. While the U.S. is certainly better than some other countries in that arena, our government hasn’t exactly been looking out for the best interests of Israel, especially under the Obama administration.
And by the way, the U.S. has a TON at stake with Israel’s existence. They are the only democracy in the Middle East, and the only reason that there isn’t complete anarchy and chaos there.
So while Israel definitely owes America a measure of hakaras hatov, they do not owe more than they give. Netanyahu needs to put the immediate security interests of his country over his (somewhat debatable, degree-wise?) obligation towards the U.S.November 17, 2015 4:18 pm at 4:18 pm #1112249
Simcha613, that’s actually what I was referring to. I do think we need to feel hakaras hatov to soldiers.
(Showing it is a different issue because it can give the appearance of agreeing hashkafically with the State.)
I was wondering if Takamsmash would say that we don’t need to have hakaras hatov, because Hashem protects us regardless (which He does).November 17, 2015 5:11 pm at 5:11 pm #1112250
Joseph, actually Pollard approached an Israeli intelligence operative and offered the info. I hate to burst your bubble but everybody spies on everybody.
In fact, shortly after Pollard was arrested Bill Casey was asked on “Meet the Press” if the US spied on its NATO allies. He responded “I hope so” – and thanks to Wikileaks we all now know that it does.November 17, 2015 5:19 pm at 5:19 pm #1112251DikDukDuckParticipant
The Israeli government proudly advertises their state as the only liberal democratic state in the Middle East, which is why I call it an American state and not a Jewish state. Israel is the only country with truly modern ideals in the Middle East. Its mere existence as a modern democratic state is, actually I dunno how useful or beneficial it is, but it’s a nice thing. Israel should be called West in the Middle East.November 17, 2015 5:32 pm at 5:32 pm #1112252
DY- Feeling hakaras hatov without showing it? Is there such a concept? And there is no way to show hakaras hatov to the state without giving the impression that you agree hashkafically with it? I don’t think my showing hakaras hatov to a Christian implies that I agree with him philosophically.November 17, 2015 5:38 pm at 5:38 pm #1112253
It’s much harder to separate the army from the State than a person who happens to be Christian from his beliefs.November 17, 2015 6:29 pm at 6:29 pm #1112254
Does Israel owe anybody Hakaras Hatov for their existence? Yes – Hashem. But because they don’t have any toward Hashem they end up doing things that are ???? ???? in the eyes of people.
Earlier PMs would be ‘Shoel Eitza’. Questions were asked to the Steipler zt”l, Chazon Ish zt”l, Sharon personally went to the Lubavitcher zt”l – NOT by Gush Katif – (and that was the last thing he ever did in his life, he lay comatose for the rest of his life.)Just to mention a few.
Who did Netanyahu ask before coming to speak to congress?
Never before in history did any Jew have such Chutzpah. Even though we have been faced with such threats thru out Jewsih history. If he couldn’t speak to Obama direct he could’ve sent a representative. Or come and speak to a representative, But not to the entire congress about the president he is trying to influence.
That is Chutzpah even without Hakaras Hatov.
The OP writes the UN gave them the state – So why did they fight the British in 1948 for their independence?
Whereas Hakaras Hatov is very important and goyim do not understand any language other than Chanufa, it is important to know how to separate the two.
We learn from the story of Yetzias Mitzrayim, when Hashem brought the Makos. Moshe Rabainu himself did not perform the first three but the others he did. Nowhere does it mention he lived in bais Paroh therefor no Makos. Or because the former Paroh invited them to live in Mitzrayim, so therefor no makos…
Israel does pay their dept. Do they or any other Jew have to thank the US for not bombing the train tracks to Auschwitz? After all we have now proof and even a museum to go see!?!
This thread actually is a direct result of the thread “Do we have a good excuse not to live in E”Y?
If all Jewish owned businesses with their owners would relocate to E”Y and rely on Hashem, This thread would have no merit.
The Israelis would be self sufficient would not need, ask or rely on the US or anybody else. We bring our problems on our self.November 17, 2015 7:07 pm at 7:07 pm #1112255BarryLS1Participant
Joseph: You think America doesn’t spy on Israel? I got news for you, they always have and they’ve caused us plenty of trouble.
Just recently, the IDF informed its soldiers that the CIA is trying to recruit them and what to do if approached.
Your a bit naive.November 17, 2015 7:20 pm at 7:20 pm #1112256
Barry: B’derech hateva America doesn’t need Israel for its survival. OTOH if America had opposed Israel from inception through today, voted against Israel in the UNSC over the decades, refused to give Israel a dollar and didn’t supply it militarily with armor and money during its wartimes and between its endless wars, b’derech hateva the State would likely not have survived. So you say it would survive on miracles? Perhaps, but that doesn’t exempt it from hakaras hatov to its great benefactor or give it right to stab it behind its back because “everybody spies on everybody”.November 17, 2015 7:21 pm at 7:21 pm #1112257
Simcha613, to answer your question about feeling hakaras hatov without being able to express it, the answer is yes, the concept exists. A famous story comes to mind:
(From a Cross-Currents article, written by Yonoson Rosenblum)
As a bochur learning in Mir, Rabbi Schwab decided one year just prior to Yom Tov to return home for the holiday. He borrowed money from Reb Yerucham for the trip. Upon his return to Mir, he repaid Reb Yerucham and thanked him. Reb Yerucham sharply criticized him for the expression of gratitude on the grounds that it raised serious halachic issues of ribis (interest).November 17, 2015 7:30 pm at 7:30 pm #1112258
DY- I hear. But that begs question, do those who feel they are not allowed to show hakaras hatov to the medina and to Tzahal… does it really bother them that they can’t?
And is it really true that there is a halachic problem with expressing hakaras hatov to the medinah (for the funds to yeshivos) and to Tzahal (for protecting us)… or that there is no way to show hakaras hatov without giving the impression that you agree with them hashkafically?
I don’t know the answer to one, but I am skeptical about the answer to two.November 17, 2015 7:42 pm at 7:42 pm #1112260
I don’t doubt that there are some who don’t feel what they should, and that is wrong.
I don’t know why you say it must be a “halachic problem”. It could be a hashkafic problem, or simply a bad idea.November 17, 2015 8:02 pm at 8:02 pm #1112261
DY- I say halachic problem because I think we have a halachic responsibility to show hakaras hatov. If we don’t show hakaras hatov in this case, that means there is a competing halachic problem with doing so- like in the story you brought, there was a potential halachic problem of ribis in that case which is why he couldn’t express hakaras hatov.November 17, 2015 8:27 pm at 8:27 pm #1112262
I don’t know that not showing hakaras hatov is any more of a halachic problem than leading people to a wrong and dangerous ideology.November 18, 2015 9:30 am at 9:30 am #1112263
Netanyahu was wrong for going to congress!
BUT, BIG BUT.
This was actually a direct insult to President Obama. Which as president some might say is indirectly a stab to the US.
But what can anybody expect from non religious/anti religious?
Hakaras Hatov is a Jewish religious concept. The medina is officially NOT religious = they don’t feel any obligation to anything religious. Clinton as Secretary of state was promoting anti religiousness in Israel. Defending ‘pritzus’ etc. NO RELIGION = No Religion. That’s all. And ‘no religion’ people do not have Hakaras Hatov. They don’t want to be Hyper religious and having Hakaras Hatov means adhering to a religious concept.
DY: Your post was about a Rav NOT a non religious politician so it does not apply. Hallachos only apply to those who keep it.
This reminds me about a child learning ????? ??? ???? . When his parents took him to McDonalds the boy told his mother “Either hamburger or cheese but not together!” The boy told the story to his teacher in school and said “I kept kosher.”
you can say he was a ‘shogeg’ but you cannot say he was eating Kosher.November 18, 2015 11:11 am at 11:11 am #1112264
JOSEPH: What is the Hakaras Hatov that you want/expect from them?
You want some Jews to be killed in the name of America? They did.November 18, 2015 1:42 pm at 1:42 pm #1112265
1. It is not charity but payment for services rendered. And as I previously posted, it must be spent on US-made goods.
2. Why are you defending an intermarried, assimilated Jew who coldly stated that it would be good for many Israeli soldiers to be killed so that Israel would be more “flexible”?
3. Under US tax law contributions can be made to charities, religious institutions, etc. in any non-hostile country so long as they go through an American institution that is recognized by the IRS for such purposes. Because there is a tax treaty between the US and Israel that allows it this is not necessary for Israeli charities. However, the same is true of Canadian and Mexican charities. See IRS Publication 526.
555, nothing could make Obama worse for Israel. Netanyahu had enough and went to those who are our proven friendsNovember 18, 2015 3:34 pm at 3:34 pm #1112266
Avi: Israel is a charity recipient of the United States. And I’m talking money that America gave Israel and/or lent Israel and then forgave the debt. Not to mention the arms America sent Israel during its wartimes and between its endless wars and money America gave (and forgave any debt) to the Israeli army. And not to mention the U.S.’ defense of Israel in the UNSC for many decades by vetoing anti-Israel resolutions countless times.November 18, 2015 6:49 pm at 6:49 pm #1112267
Avik: That’s your mistake. look in Avos
????? ??????? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ?? ???? ????
Nobody in politics is a proven friend. Everybody has themselves in mind. Their own agenda. They are only friends to get your vote, afterward it’s another story.
Obama was put into office by the Jews! Why? What change did they want him to make and why? Do you think Clinton is better?
Obama made a chanukah party his first term. Everybody came enjoyed themself and left. Why did they go? How did they say thank you?
Netanyahu had enough of what? Of Judaism. Why didn’t he ask a Gadol before coming to America? Earlier Prime Ministers asked Gedolim – not all did. But a major decisions (or at leased if he considered it major) he could’ve asked Daas Torah. E”Y has to be lived by the Torah. If not, Do Not complain about anybody’s opposition.
If everybody would say Tehillim as much time as they spend in the cr Obama would be great for the Yidden. What happened to Achashvairosh? Was he bad or good when he agreed to the g’zairah?March 25, 2019 3:38 pm at 3:38 pm #1700950
Israel and Netanyahu should be licking America and Trump’s shoes in hakaras hatov for all America and Trump have done for Israel over the past two years.
Iran, Jerusalem, Golan Heights and more.March 25, 2019 4:10 pm at 4:10 pm #1700978
Its a question if America wants to be a world power or a private country. Since world war2 it has decided that a policeman of the world is necessary. No country in the world including america gives free gifts (besides for isreal vka”l). Everything a country does is for its own interest. This is a klal gadol in any diplomatic deal that ever existed.March 25, 2019 5:12 pm at 5:12 pm #1700979
And without israel the entire middle east would be one big battlefield, with saudi arabia and all the arab states fighting iran and who knows what else? All the arab countries are relying on israel to keep an eye on iran and every other crazy thing that happens in the middle east. This is basic social studies. There is not one free dollar given to israel. Any otherwise notion is amhaaretzis.March 25, 2019 5:12 pm at 5:12 pm #1700980
For the record, joseph has a thousand accounts.March 25, 2019 5:12 pm at 5:12 pm #1700983LerntminTayrahParticipant
This thread is mufrach minei ubei
Israel is a maaseh satan according to Rabbi Yaakov Shapiro
Maaseh satan needs not offer any hakaras hatov because it’s not supposed to have any good midah.
Mima nafshach.April 2, 2019 8:34 pm at 8:34 pm #1707502
yesh omrim that most of the world is a maaseh satan. pick your satan…
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