Issues to be discussed in 12th grade

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  • #592653

    bymeidel
    Member

    I am in 12th grade in a bais yaakov hs, and feel that girls should be given some sort of “kallah classes” before we leave hs. I don’t think we need to hear everything but feel that certain things which arent taught to us should be as they are applicable to us. For example, I was reading one of the topics in the coffeeroom about nonjewish music and movies. Someone raised the issue of hirhur arayos for a single woman who is a nidah. I feel as this is something that applies to most hs girls it should be discussed with us and explained why it is so terrible to watch movies and read dirty books. Until I read that discussion I did not even know that shulchan aruch doesnt allow dirty books.

    Many girls have never even heard of nidah and related issues. For example one of my Rabbi teachers mentioned very briefly that at a certain time of the month a husband and wife cant touch each other. Some girls never even heard of this or the fact that married women need to go to the mikveh. Another example is when one of my limudei kodesh teachers mentioned that a couple need to consult a Rav before deciding to stop having children. Girls were shocked and didnt understand why “it was the Rav’s bussiness.”

    I feel that especially since we are expected to get married in 2 years, when we come back from seminary, we should be made aware of these halachos and not be totally clueless as some of them apply to us.

    What is your view on this issue?

    #701134

    mghanooni
    Member

    I preface my comments by saying that I don’t know what is considered proper and tsniut for young ladies education.

    IMHO, I agree with bymeidel that there should be more education in various tsniut matters.

    bymeidel, please note that you don’t even have to go so far as the Shulhan Aruch to find out about dirty media being not allowed. You say in the third paragraph of Kriat Shema that we are not to be lead astray by our hearts and eyes.

    Let me also inform you that a man’s hirhurim are worse that a ladies. Therefore it’s very important for a lady to not cause his hirhurim by non-tsniut dress, action, and speech.

    #701135

    WIY
    Member

    bymeidel

    If you attended a BY I find it hard to believe that it was never mentioned that movies and non Jewish books are assur to read.

    Frankly it should be common sense but its not so common today….They dont have to go into all the details and bring up Niddah and all that. They figure you will learn about Niddah in Kallah classes and its more appropriate to learn about it the right way.

    Its likeley that you are in a school/environment where you and your friends are quite sheltered and I find it rather depressing that girls in 12th grade dont know about Nidah. Im not 100% convinced its due to sheltering, its also likely just a general lack of knowledge that many in our camp have these days. The Am Haaratzus especially in Halacha and Hashkafah has reached Guinness book of records proportions for boys and girls.

    Your school isnt going to give you any more info than they already have. If you want to learn more either speak to an open minded teacher/Rabbi in the school or go to an open minded but frum seminary where you will find appropriate teachers to speak to. Additionally, you can always go to a Jewish book store and find books discussing any Jewish topic under the sun. Nobody is stopping you from getting educated on your own time.

    #701136

    smartcookie
    Member

    Talk to your principal about it.

    #701137

    minyan gal
    Member

    Bymeidel – I think you have made an excellent point. Knowledge is power – the more you know, the better off you will be. You are one smart cookie and have already acquired more knowledge than most of your classmates. Have you spoken with your teachers about the possibility of such classes? Would the teachers listen to you? Perhaps your parents or a group of parents could approach the school and make this request.

    #701138

    tzippi
    Member

    When I was in SEMINARY, not 12th grade, a group asked the administration for a class such as this and we were told that it wasn’t appropriate in seminary, but should be left for when we were kallahs.

    That said, I think that what you want to know is something mothers should tell their daughters, whenever they think it’s appropriate, as part of telling them about the beauty and kedusha of intimacy. And I would say that it’s fully appropriate for a mature young woman to do her own reading, such as R. Kaplan’s Garden of Eden, to be literate in important hashkafa and general knowledge. But generally, the nuts and bolts should definitely be reserved for kallah classes.

    By the way, this could segue into what’s appropriate for high school, what should be for seminary, is sem. necessary, etc.

    #701139

    yeshivaguy1
    Member

    I’m just curious,regarding the girls who didn’t understand why the rav should be consulted before stopping to have children, considering they didn’t understand this, how did they think that the couple would go about doing that.

    #701140

    real-brisker
    Member

    bymeidel – In the question you posed, you did not mention why for any reason it should be needed for you to know now about these halachos. There is no need to know them until you taka become a kallah. Is there a reason why you think it should be know even though its not nogeiah?

    #701141

    I’m not sure I understand- What exactly do you want to learn? hilchos niddah? Why would you want to learn that in 12th grade? Why should all the girls in your class know what a niddah is or when a woman goes to the mikvah? So they can look out for it in their parents relationships??? And take away their privacy?

    And if youre in a BY HS dont tell me you never heard that you cant read or watch dirty things!

    Well Informed Yid- Why do you “find it rather depressing that girls in 12th grade dont know about Nidah.”????

    Theres a reason why it isnt taught untill later on…

    #701142

    Yeshivaguy-

    One isnt a stirrah to another- They can know that birth control exists and not know that it can be assur at times without a Ravs consultation

    #701143

    bymeidel
    Member

    wellinformedyid- although i go to a by school it is not the typical bais yaakov and most of the girls do not come from sheltered homes. Most girls watch movies and read books that I feel are totally inappropriate, they know that it is looked down upon but i do not think they know it is assur.

    smartcookie and minyangal- I dont know how to approach them and request this. I wasnt even sure if it was an actual problem or just my own opinion, that is why i started this topic.

    yeshivaguy1- the girls in my school are aware of the ways to stop doing so and assumed it would be the couples choice to stop as they please.

    real-brisker- i am not asking to be taught everything that is taught in kallah classes but i think that girls that are about to leave hs should be aware that such things exist as they are an important part of jewish life. I think that as you can see in the examples i gave, there is a big lack in these girls knowledge. I think it is sad as wellinformed yid mentioned.

    #701144

    shlomozalman
    Member

    Frankly, I am in shock that a twelfth grader in a Bais Yaakov has not learned basic concepts in religious family life. After all, these are psukim in the Torah, one need not dig in a bookstore for them. Waiting for kallah classes to inform these girls about these paramount issues is way too late.

    #701145

    minyan gal
    Member

    brisker – a young lady of today should know many of these things – long before she is a kallah. She has to know how the human body functions so that she might know if there is something wrong with hers. As a former nurse, I can tell you that many people seek medical attention too late to be helped due to ignorance of normal bodily functions. Waiting until you are a kallah, G-d forbid, could be too late.

    #701146

    cshapiro
    Member

    Being that I graduated high school which touched upon but didnt elaborate in halachos like negiah, yichud and etc. I fell…often times BY assume everyone knows the halachos but its very difficult when you go out to the secular world (work and college) and I cant blame BY for my own actions but I can definitely say they didnt prep us enough. Not everyone gets engaged and married the day after seminary lets out and some people get involved with the wrong guys….BYmeidel if ur really interested, approach your principle and ask her, ur in 12th grade already theres not much she can do to you at this point 😉 good luck!!

    #701147

    oomis
    Participant

    My daughters had T”H classes in 12th grade, given by a terrific rebbetzin in the community. They learned basics, not intensively as in a true kallah class, but the basic hashkafos, the basic halachos and harchakos, and so forth. It was a VERY GOOD idea, and made it so much easier for when the girls who were getting married did take real kallah classes.

    As to the idea that what do the girls have to know about their parents’ private issues – are you serious? Do you really think that when a girl becomes a young woman, she does not have the seichel to understand that her mother might be a niddah at different times? The only caveat is that the mother needs to try to be very discreet about when she goes to the Mikvah, but teenage daughters are not stupid. I know women who b’davka keep a bag of some innocuous grocery item (canned goods or detergent) in a bag in the car, so she can “go shopping” for an hour and come back with it. But please do not underestimate our girls’ intelligence.

    #701148

    charliehall
    Participant

    I think the person who started this thread has a very valid point. Single women need to know these halachot. I personally know a single woman who was very seriously dating someone who managed to convince her that once married they would observe only seven days of separation. Since this woman had never seen anything but the actual pasukim in the Torah, she had no idea that this guy was a total rasha!

    #701149

    bymeidel
    Member

    thank you to everyone for understanding how i feel. do you have any suggestions as to how i can get this to be part of my school’s curriculum? for those of you who do not agree with me or dont understand why these halachos are neccesary for hs girls, I will try to explain why i feel like it is nogeiah to us.

    One of my teachers is teaching us about the Jewish life cycle. She started with an engaged couple and is teaching us the halachos that apply to different parts of life; ex. chasuna etc. anyways she totally skipped over this topic as if it merely does not exist. This is appropriate for young kids, but as young women i dont think that our teacher needs to pretend it doesnt exist. She could have very sensatively explained that there are certain halachos that a couple need to follow without going into the little details. Everyone knows she is skipping over something anyway, especially since most of the girls in my class watch movies and read dirty books. Do you think we should be learning about intamacy and relationships from these goyish sources? shouldnt it be taught in Jewish schools so that girls will understand that it is something of kedushah? As oomis1105 said, we are not stupid there is no need to hide from us an entire chapter of Jewish life.

    Even if you dont agree with my view, dont you think we should learn about halachos in these areas that are applicable to single girls? Such as negiah, tznius, hirhur, etc? if not, we will come to stumble merely from a lack of knowledge of the halachos.

    #701150

    bymeidel
    Member

    “Why would you want to learn that in 12th grade? Why should all the girls in your class know what a niddah is or when a woman goes to the mikvah? So they can look out for it in their parents relationships??? And take away their privacy?”

    watrutalkingabt- just so you know this is not why I want to learn about this. My mother is a widow and is not remarried so that wouldn’t even be possible for me. I want to know for myself not to steal anyones privacy and not for mere curiosity.

    #701151

    BY meidel-

    I didnt mean that thats why you want to learn it. Sorry if thats how it came out. I just couldnt understand why a girl in 12th grade wants to or should learn about halachos that only pertain to married women.

    If you are saying that the girls are hearing about it anyways but from unkosher sources than maybe you have a point.

    And of course you should be taught about tzniyus, yichud and negiah- I alwasy thought all BYs stress that. Mine certainly did

    #701152

    mghanooni
    Member

    It seems to me that if these topics are taught in school (in the right time, setting, from the right person, etc.) then one may approach them with a sense of kedusha. Otherwise one may get an unholy view about certain things, especially if they are exposed to various forms of media. Even rated G movies are loaded with many implicit notions of relationships, both emotional and physical.

    #701153

    pet peeve
    Member

    bymeidel, while i agree to some extent with your concern, i honestly think that theres a time and place for everything, and 12th grade is not the place to learn about hilchos niddah. i further find it hard to believe that any scenario whatsoever never came up in your BY education. when i was in 12 grade, we had a segment of our curriculum dedicated to “family life” topics, that touched on just about everything–but TOUCHED!! opened our minds, gave us insight, and the rest was left for a more appropriate forum.

    on another note, not everything is appropriate for a classroom discussion: if you are curious, ask a rav, or better yet, your mother, or ever better, wait till kallah classes.

    im the last one to tell you that girls should be in the dark until they are kallahs–dont get me wrong. i just think that a classroom is not the place, be that in HS or sem. theres room for discussion, etc, and its important you receive a strong hashkafic background. but detailed halacha classes dont sit right with me….i think its somewhat a lack of tznius….i dont know, this is just how i feel.

    a part of this demands some common sense, of what is appropriate to ask, to read on you own, and when to do so.

    #701154

    bymaidel, i hear your point although i still don’t agree. You can’t demand it of your school to teach these things. Your school has it’s policies…it’s subjects…

    If your truly seeking knowledge because you want to know the Torah perspective on it – get yourself books of this subject. there are many english halacha/hashkafa books out there for women. I don’t know what your mother would say to you reading it but… personally i know of girls who had not a clue of what life was about before getting married and it was a REAL shocker to them. almost traumatizing. on the other hand, what? do you really expect teachers to tell you these things? i think that the mothers should address it sometime or another to their daughters.

    #701155

    support
    Member

    I agree that the topics need to be touched on before marriage. I went to a school were all of this was taboo and nothing about how to have a Jewish Home was discussed in HS. I remebmber lewarning Rashi about shlomis bas divri and a classmate asking what “znus” means. The teacher responded when a man and lady are alone!

    A number of years later I met with my Rav (a Gadol who is respected by all different groups) regarding a Shiduch and he asked me if I wanted a man to touch me. My response was “NO”. He wanted to know why , my response was “it is appropriate”. He was quite disturbed as to why i thought it inappropriate. His response was “if you don’t want it marriage can’t work!!!”

    I am involved in an online support group for women/girls (two seperate forums) who have gyn issues. From my experience not knowing anything before kallah classes is detrimental to marriages both emotionaly and physically.

    #701157

    Midwest2
    Participant

    This is confusing. The whole inyan of niddah is brought down in Chumash very clearly. Are BY girls learning Chumash with Rashi and other meforshim and somehow not noticing? Are the teachers not teaching, just saying, “Don’t ask about that?”

    And I agree with those who say:

    A) You have to know a lot if you’re going to go out into the world to work. Offices can be very iffy places, with yichud issues, negiah (even by the innocent but ignorant) and so forth. And not just for girls. Guys can have problems too.

    B) If a girl doesn’t get some serious hashkafahs on this subject she is going to be open to influence by secular culture, and it’s almost impossible to avoid, particularly if she’s working.

    We can’t insist that our girls go out to work to support their husbands and leave them without the knowledge to protect themselves.

    #701159

    intelectual
    Member

    I am intreiged by this quetion. My sources tell me that this is an imposter! Never the less I think it wise to answer it anyway.

    Yes there should be speacil Kallah classes where you can ask all you want. and laern all you can. but only when your in 12th grade!

    and it should be taught by a morah not a rebby!

    I wish you the best in life. And G/d bless you.

    #701160

    bymeidel
    Member

    pet peeve- all im asking is that they touch upon it and not pretend that it doesnt exist. I am not saying that they need to teach all the halachic details of niddah all i am saying is that it should be touched upon and not skipped over. Should girls get married with zero knowledge and then be shocked because they didnt even know such concepts existed? Do you think it’s better for girls to learn about intimacy from goyish sources? is that any better? I dont think we need to hear all the details but i also dont think that the concept has to be hidden from us. I dont understand why we are supposed to be mature enough to get married in a year but not mature enough to be honest with. all im saying is that it should be touched upon in a very tznius manner.

    #701161

    zaidy78
    Participant

    Most boys, by the time their in 12th grade know alot more about these topics than girls do. Anybody that learned meseches kidushin or gittin can’t be totally clueless. (Or else, he doesn’t totally undertsand the gemarah). Girls should have some knowledge about the inyan. Full halacha classes? NO! But what I think bymeidel is asking for is some direction in hashkafa. Someone told me about a lady who teaches kallas who asks each girl at the first meeting, “How are babies born?” Some were so clueless, that its mindboggling! One answered that mothers take pills…

    #701162

    lkwdfellow
    Member

    In my humble opinion, I think that there should also be some dating lessons in 12th grade. Frum singles enter the dating scene with limited interaction with members of the opposite gender & need a basic introduction. In BMG – Bochurim get a pre-dating shmooz from Rav Jacobs & there should be one for the girls as well.

    #701163

    oomis
    Participant

    BY meidel-

    I didnt mean that thats why you want to learn it. Sorry if thats how it came out. I just couldnt understand why a girl in 12th grade wants to or should learn about halachos that only pertain to married women.”

    They pertain to ALL women. Only the halachos of going to the Mikveh apply to married women. All the halachos regarding tznius, hirhur, negiah, etc. apply to all of us. One could ask an even better question – why are unmarried Yeshivah BOCHURIM who do not even have a mitzvah to go to the mikveh for T”H reasons, learn the Gemarah pertaining to Niddah? It is not their mitzvah, so what reason should they be learning things that a) pertain to women, not to themselves and b) they are not even married yet, so it is not even shayach to them from THAT standpoint?

    #701164

    1st timer
    Participant

    For the last few months, ever since broken engagements and divorces of (newlywed) couples have become much more rampant then ever before, I’ve been preaching that there should be a new type of class given in girls and boys schools (obviously older grades) on “how to get engaged and stay engaged and how to get married and stay married”. I think it’s very important for schools and yeshivos to start addressing these issues. I think this type of discussion can be incorporated along with some hilchos yichud…type of learning, including also appropriate dating/talking….type of lectures.

    #701165

    apushatayid
    Participant

    I’m probably the least qualified to offer an opinion on this matter, but its never stopped me before. Seems to me this is an area where a girl should get guidance from her mother.

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