It's Almost September… Does every child have a school?

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  • #592202
    shindy
    Member

    Bina magazine has a good article about the sad situation of our educational system…that there are so many children without a school and how hard it is on them and the parents AND THE SCHOOLS who are struggling financially.

    I would like to know people’s thoughts about this.

    #693764
    rosh chabura
    Member

    well said shindy, it is such a chaval that day schools are turning down kids, i think the problem is that each school wants to be better than the one down the block and if a kid is a ‘B’ student of if the father chas V’shalom works ( yes i said work) instead of being a rosh chaburah or yugelmann then the child wont fit in to the ‘better’ schools. anther problem is tuition, it is poshut unaffordable. many out of town communities ( Chicago, Baltimore, Toronto) have started a ‘chinuch fund’ to benefit parents who are struggling with tution, and baruch hashen the day schools are able to stay afloat even with the recession.

    #693765
    artchill
    Participant

    Rosh Chabura:

    STOP RIGHT WHERE YOU ARE!!

    1. In Chicago more than 90% of the school parent body WORKS. The Kehilla Fund merely substitutes the missing amount and is a lump sum per school attendance. It is not earmarked towards person A or B.

    2. In situations where the family will sink financially there are a few families who are major donors to the school anyways, and they cover the costs of those families. Chinuch is NOT FREE in Chicago.

    3. Chicago contracts out tuition decisions. Each parent must send in their Tax Returns to the contractor who has a computer algorithm that sets a tuition rate. This takes the ability of one domineering tuition commitee member from taking revenge against families he doesn’t get along with.

    4. Any parent who has the chutzpah to call up a school and demand that another child NOT BE ACCEPTED, or ask for another child to be thrown out………………(My wife didn’t let me finish my thought!!).

    5. Schools that treated their alumni well during their stay in the school, and treat the current children well ARE NOT SUFFERING FINANCIALLY DESPITE THE ECONOMIC DOWNTURN. If you treat them well, they’ll treat you well back. It’s just that simple.

    #693766
    SJSinNYC
    Member

    If we are on the tuition problem, I wonder how many parents asking for scholarships have cleaning help, fancier leased cars, eat meat/chicken all the time and have many luxuries. I bet the % is higher than you realize.

    I know someone on scholarship in Lakewood who lives in a fancy house, has a full time cleaning lady and doesn’t work. She is on scholarship because (what she said) she would rather spend the money on luxuries. I hope this is NOT a predominant attitude in Lakewood. I know in Teaneck a lot of families have scholarships and have the above listed luxuries plus more. Some people have the attitude of “If others get a scholarhip, I can too.” Its detrimental to EVERYONE.

    #693767
    SRPsych
    Member

    Considering that 2 schools just closed in Lakewood due to financial issues – it might be more prevalent than we’d like to think 🙁

    But I think the question related more to acceptance than tuition. I hear it is a huge issue, internationally. There is no more “middle of the road” – you are either very black or modern – and therefore accepted into a very black institution or a modern one. If you define yourself as slightly to the right of modern or slightly to the left of black – you have no educational institution for your children.

    #693768
    shindy
    Member

    SJSinNYC, if this is the case, that a family can pay tuition but refuses because they want to pay for luxuries, I am surprised because the tuition committees are not handing out tuition breaks so easily. If they get away with it, then Hashem deals with those kind of people and chas v’shalom their children’s chinuch may suffer as a result.

    I think that if a parent cannot pay full tuition then they should help support the school in other ways. For example, the boys and girls can collect soda bottles and get the five cent deposit and the parents who can’t pay should drive these kids once a week to redeem the bottles. I know boys who collect money this way for Rubashkin, and it does add up.

    The schools and parent body have to come up with ways of raising funds because tuition alone is not enough and the schools are closing. Yeshivos have to become our priority because without Jewish education for our children there is no future.

    #693770
    Jose
    Member

    SJS,

    The story you post sounds sort of fantastical to me. Most of the Yeshivos in Lakewood do not actually give scholarships or very limited ones at that. But, you never said that the school is in Lakewood, so that may be a whole ‘nother kettle of fish.

    I also find it unusual for a person to straight out say she would rather spend the money on luxuries especially in Lakewwod were for the most part people are not living extravagantly. I suspect that it is some indication of somesort of imbalance for someone to straight out say that.

    I have a friend who was on the tuition committee of a LI MO school and people earning 300,000 would put in scholarship applications because they would have to take the family to Europe and they had a Mercedes and they were redoing the house. It would drive him nuts since he did without all the years so he could pay full tuition. And it bothered him that the scholarships were awarded.

    #693771
    ASF
    Participant

    why is it that the first place people try to bargain down is on tuition? does anyone bargain with their landlord every month to give a break in the rent? does anyone bargain with gas or electric co?

    I understand its expensive, but y should our childrens education suffer? y shouldnt their teachers who put so much time and effort into our kids not get their paycheck on time? they are also entitled to feed their families…

    what message are we giving our children when we buy them the nicest clothes and toys, take them on nice vacations, have expensive cars and when it comes to their chinuch we are looking to get away cheap????

    #693772
    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Jose, its a Lakewood school. And its a true story. I don’t know if its rare or not.

    The reason people bargain with tuition is that scholarships are not viewed as charity. For every dollar in tuition you DON’T pay, someone has to foot that bill. People just think its like getting a good deal on car payment.

    Also, tuition is expensive. If you have 5 kids in a Lakewood school at $4,000 a child, that’s $20,000. That is a large chunk of after tax money.

    In Teaneck, if you make over $175,000 combined, you cannot apply for scholarships.

    I am not surprised that schools in Lakewood are closing though because many people have a lot of children and a large portion of the population is learning. Schools are starting to understand that without money, schools cannot run.

    EDITED

    #693773
    HIE
    Participant

    regarding the fact of children not being accepted to a school cuz their not Yeshivish enough. i am in a yeshiva where the rule was made that in elementary your child is NOT accepted if there is a tv in the house or if the child has access to internet a couple years ago. this yeshiva is bh a flourishing yeshiva in brooklyn. i heard someone say well, wy are they doing this, their making it so yeshivish? so i said, well when a kid has access to tv or internet and then you send him to this school, and they accept everyone, he will have a bad hashpaah on other kids. and yes, i have witnessed it that kids that watch tv after all set and done are less into learning and violent. so when your school doesnt accept your child cuz you have a tv, instead of going somewhere else and saying this place is retarted, get rid of the tv, there is absolutly no reason to have it, there is no normal show today without pritzus and violents.

    #693774
    laguy
    Member

    Tuition is a problem and I can’t speak to the prevalent attitude there on the East Coast but tuitions here in LA are very high. So if you have 4 kids in school and earn the same $175,000 that was referred to by SJSinNYC as the threshold in Teaneck, most regular folks in LA couldn’t afford to send their kids to Yeshiva.

    Consider the following: schools here are asking from $18,000 each = $72,000 just for tuition. Rents run in the $3000/mo range for a decent size place for a family of six, another $36,000 for the year. If you choose to buy in any neighborhood in LA, the “yeshivish” part of town (Hancock Park/Fairfax), the houses run $1,000,000 (give or take $100,000), the more modern part (Pico) about the same, a mix of the two (the Valley) you can buy a smaller house starting in the $600,000 range, property taxes run 1.25%(?) of the purchase price or current market value. Add in food, clothing, moderate car payment, etc. take away the taxes, I’m not so sure it is so affordable at full tuition. Mind you, many of the schools are charging over $20,000, you can make the changes in the above numbers accordingly.

    So if you are making $100,000 a year and have 4 kids, you’re probably asking for a scholarship and expecting one.

    #693775
    Health
    Participant

    People make too much money in this country. The tuitions shouldn’t be so high and neither should the cost of living. If you live in a fancy house, have a nice car, etc., you don’t deserve a break on your tuition.

    #693776
    SJSinNYC
    Member

    LAGuy, Teaneck is not quite as expensive as LA (most houses are between $450-650,000). People have between 3-5 kids, so earning $175,000 it is possible to pay tuition. Very hard though.

    #693777
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    The title reads: It’s Almost September… Does every child have a school?

    Perhaps it should say: It’s Almost September… Does every child have a Parent who is willing to sacrifice to get their child into a school?

    Sacrifice is both in Mammon and Ruchni. I bet that in the Cheder in the Shtetel, they were not picky regarding which child your’s learned with.

    #693778
    Helpful
    Member

    There can be no sacrifice in ruchni.

    #693779
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    There can be no sacrifice in ruchni.

    Thought you might say that 🙂

    Its a question of guarding from other frum yidden who pasken differently than you, not eating tarfus.

    How many Boys/Girls Yeshivos are there in Lakewood? And do you really think you need all of them, if some can be made bigger and accept the other students?

    #693780
    Jose
    Member

    SJS,

    How much is tuition in Teaneck? Approximately? And what type of school.

    #693781
    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Jose, tuitions is between $14,000-$17,000 per child. These are all MO schools.

    #693782
    NoNonsense
    Participant

    Schools in Lakewood only charge $4,000 for tuition??!! Wow! Here in Queens, the Yeshivas charge over $11,000! (And that doens’t include lunch, PA Dues, etc.) even scholarships don’t bring it down to anywhere close to $4,000!

    #693783
    mw13
    Participant

    artchill: “Chicago contracts out tuition decisions. Each parent must send in their Tax Returns to the contractor who has a computer algorithm that sets a tuition rate. This takes the ability of one domineering tuition commitee member from taking revenge against families he doesn’t get along with.”

    That could very well be one of the best ideas I’ve ever heard. Tax returns = no lying to the yeshiva unless you want to risk the wrath of the IRS (for the complete fools who fear the wrath of the IRS more than the wrath of Heaven); private contractor/algorithm = no (OK, less) fighting or haggling over tuition, it is what it is. Brilliant.

    ______________________________________________________________

    This has been said again and again here, but I think it’s worth repeating one more time: People must, and when I say must I mean positively must, stop putting tuition at the bottom of their list of things to spend money on. As has been recently demonstrated in Lakewood, schools need money to function. Therefore, your tuition is your investment in your child: there is absolutely nothing (short of bare necessities) that could possibly be more important than that! How can people even think of paying for vacations, massive simchos, fancy cars/house/clothes etc, before paying for their children’s chinuch?! Where are their priorities?! Where are their brains?! What on earth are they thinking?!

    #693784
    blinky
    Participant

    “Therefore, your tuition is your investment in your child: there is absolutely nothing (short of bare necessities) that could possibly be more important than that! How can people even think of paying for vacations, massive simchos, fancy cars/house/clothes etc, before paying for their children’s chinuch?! Where are their priorities?! Where are their brains?! What on earth are they thinking?!”

    mw13- I don’t think this is the underlying factor why schools don’t have money. Its true that some ppl do spend money that they don’t have on other things, but its not a general rule. Some ppl just dont have the money. And they are not the ppl who have the fancy homes…

    #693785
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Some ppl just dont have the money.

    As I have posted before, relatives of mine have gotten calls from parents collecting for their own children’s minimum tuition requirements.

    For failing schools, it is an idea.

    #693786
    squeak
    Participant

    How can people even think of paying for vacations, massive simchos, fancy cars/house/clothes etc, before paying for their children’s chinuch?!

    It’s really quite simple. If you don’t pay for your vacations, massive simchos, fancy cars, etc – no one else will pay for them on your behalf. You simply won’y have those items. But if you don’t pay for your childrens’ chinuch someone else will pay for you. You miss out nothing by not paying.

    #693787
    SJSinNYC
    Member

    On a Jewish women’s website I am on, they were just discussing needs vs wants. You have no idea how many people think cleaning help is “essential” and wouldn’t give it up. Yeshiva tuition is ABSOLUTELY last on most people’s lists.

    #693788
    blinky
    Participant

    When you say cleaning help are you also reffering to ones that come once/twice a week?

    #693789
    says who
    Member

    Tuition should absolutley be top priority, but cleaning help could many times make a difference bet. coping and not coping. Especially in bklyn where large families are crapmed up in tiny apartments.

    #693790
    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Blinky, yes. Even if its $50/week at the end of the year that’s $2500. More than 50% of 1 full tuition in Lakewood.

    Says who, with rare exception, most people CAN handle more but choose not to.

    #693791
    blinky
    Participant

    SJS- so is it better that kids come home to a messy home, a frustrated tired mother who is trying to keep a clean home? I do agree that when money is owed to schools, you have to let go on some luxuries- but cleaning help is not one of them.

    #693792
    says who
    Member

    SJSinNYC

    I disagree.

    Keep in mind, not everyone is so geshikt as you. Living in Monsey and in Teenack, I can’t expect you to imagine how it is living on the 5th floor 1 bedroom apt. with 3 kids or more.

    #693793
    Dr. Pepper
    Participant

    says who-

    If there is someone living in a 1 bedroom apt with three kids then I think they should get more than just a tuition break.

    #693794
    SJSinNYC
    Member

    And that’s why schools are closing. People don’t prioritize money for tuition.

    Yes, a mother should try her best. But yeshiva tuition should come before a clean home.

    There are other ways to cut money out of your budget. A few options are:

    Eat less meat, chicken and fish. Serve beans, eggs and cheese instead as a protein.

    Unplug everything not in use (except for essentials like your refridgerator).

    Keep the air conditioner off. Only use in dangerous weather. Utilize fans, open windows, cold drinks instead.

    Keep the thermostat lower and bundle up more.

    Sell off your silver. Keep only items that you actually use and need (like kiddush cup).

    No new clothing, unless everything you wear is threadbare.

    Sell off jewelry except for your wedding band.

    Get rid of second car (if you have one). If you live in a place like Brookly and don’t need a car for work (just for convenience), get rid of it. [savings on gas, maintenance, insurance]

    Downsize your house or apartment if applicable.

    Take in borders if you have room.

    I can probably come up with more rather easily. People talk about wanting to pay tuition, but people don’t want to live the reality of actually doing what they need to.

    #693795
    says who
    Member

    This is the norm in my neighborhood.

    #693796
    SJSinNYC
    Member

    So I can’t know poor because I grew up in Monsey or Teaneck?

    I know poverty. I have a friend that when she first got married was so poor she asked her friends to take ketchup packets, jelly and cracker packages from restaurants (where they gave them out) so they could have. They barely had ANYTHING to eat. They couldn’t afford milk. They couldn’t afford anything. Now, these friends aren’t Jewish, but they certainly didn’t say “I need cleaning help or I am not going to make it.” They shortly had 4 kids in the house and still didn’t have cleaning help.

    Cleaning help IS a luxury. Unless ch”v someone is disabled or really mentally unstable. Obviously that’s a different ballgame. But to tell me the average family needs it? Please.

    And you referenced a stressed out mother – where is the father in this equation? He can’t pick up a mop and broom?

    The only “cleaning help” I have is my husband.

    #693797
    Dr. Pepper
    Participant

    3 kids in a 1 bedroom?

    #693798
    says who
    Member

    SJSinNYC

    Like always in the cr I’ll repeat myself. I said it’s hard for you to imagine living in a cramped up apartment.

    Cleaning help IMO is far from a luxury

    Dr. Pepper

    Yes, they sleep in the dining room.

    #693799
    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Dr Pepper, I do know a few people who live in Boro Park with that. Kids sleep in the living room, some with the parents. From what I’ve heard, its hard to even find a 2 bedroom with reasonable rent in BP.

    Although, why people don’t move slightly further out for cheaper rent astounds me also.

    #693800
    blinky
    Participant

    SJS- Just because you are managing its not a set rule for e/o. I know large families where money is a bit tight, and there is cleaning help once a week, and yes, everyone pitches in to help clean too- its just not enough. They dont go on major vacations, and certainly don’t have fancy homes, cars….

    #693801
    Dr. Pepper
    Participant

    In that case- do you still suggest taking in a border?

    #693802
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    says who:

    Let’s ask a silly question. Why do you live in such a “small” apartment?

    #693803
    says who
    Member

    Why do you live in such a “small” apartment?

    Are you trying to say that instead of using money for cleaning help I should use it for a larger apartmnet?

    I spend about $220 a month for cleaning help, which is far from enough money to afford a larger apartment.

    #693804
    SJSinNYC
    Member

    LOL Dr. P, no 🙂 I didn’t say all were applicable to everyone.

    Blinky, then your house isn’t 100% clean. Would you rather your kids have a yeshiva to go to, or a spotless house?

    #693805
    mw13
    Participant

    blinky: “I don’t think this is the underlying factor why schools don’t have money. Its true that some ppl do spend money that they don’t have on other things, but its not a general rule. Some ppl just dont have the money. And they are not the ppl who have the fancy homes… “

    Nobody is denying that there are people who simply can’t pay tuition. But those who can, must.

    ___________________________________________________

    squeak: “If you don’t pay for your vacations, massive simchos, fancy cars, etc – no one else will pay for them on your behalf. You simply won’y have those items. But if you don’t pay for your childrens’ chinuch someone else will pay for you. You miss out nothing by not paying.”

    Until, of course, the school closes down. Then you have a problem.

    ____________________________________________________

    SJSinNYC: I think that cleaning help 2x a week is normal and necessary. But for those willing to cope without it, kol hakavod!

    #693806
    blinky
    Participant

    SJS- I don’t see why maintaining a healthy household has to be the deciding factor between paying your tuition or not. I guess we will just have to disagree on this one 🙂

    #693807
    SJSinNYC
    Member

    mw13, not necessary. A luxury. A wanted one – fine. Do you value a yeshiva education over cleaning help?

    #693808
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    says who:

    Not at all. I would like you to think about why you have a “small” apartment. There is a point that circles back to tuition.

    As a side point 220$ per month sounds like a large sum that would be able to get an rent upgrade anywhere outside Boro Park/Williamsburg/LES or LA. I know it would work where I live. I believe it would even work in Flatbush!

    Do you choose to live in one of those areas (or another area where costs are similar)?

    #693809
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    SJS:

    I think you are making a mistake in judgement here.

    YOU are capable of taking care of a home, working, taking care of children, and being there for your husband.

    There are others who are just not as mentally capable as you are.

    They are unable to hold a job AND take care of children, or buy food AND take care of the home. Their husbands are not any more capable, or are the type that are not Mevatel Torah to help in the home.

    None the less, they got married and now have many children.

    Post-fact, they need help.

    #693810
    says who
    Member

    gavra_at_work

    Well, if I would pay less tuition the first thing I would do is to move to a larger apartment.

    I’m not planning on moving outside of my neighborhood.

    #693811
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    I’m not planning on moving outside of my neighborhood.

    So you CHOOSE not to leave your neighborhood, thereby CHOOSING not to pay full tuition.

    I’m not saying that it is your fault, but it does explain why the schools have no money. You choose not to pay them when if you tried hard (or even somewhat) by moving, you might be able to do so (or at least more than you do now).

    Of course you may have other reasons why staying where you are saves money, and then we can get back to my original point.

    #693812
    SJSinNYC
    Member

    GAW, I do all those things because I have to, not want to. Do you think I like coming home exhausted and scrubbing toilets? I think most people use this as an excuse. People are a lot more capable than we give them credit for and they live up to our expectations.

    I can’t understand the philosophy of a husband saying “No sorry I can’t help with MY family responsibilities because I need some time to learn” but still think a Yeshiva education is important. Is it only important when someone else foots the bill?

    says who, then you are saying you value neighborhood over tuition. And cleaning help over tuition.

    #693813
    says who
    Member

    So you are telling me to move to a cheaper place where I’ll be able to use the $220 for rent and I won’t need cleaning help and????

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