August 17, 2020 12:03 pm at 12:03 pm #1892948
For all you people who will unfortunately vote for joe i ask you 1 question do you like the way America is now? Do you know if Joe gets elected it will only get worst and he said himself that he’s making it worst just like defund the police etc can you imagine America with out police well that’s what will happen so don’t be fooled because that’s what will happen it will not get better just worst. You will regret it after all i can say If joe gets elected I’m outta here.August 17, 2020 12:21 pm at 12:21 pm #1892970
Trump 2016: Things are bad, vote for me and I can fix them.
Trump 2020: Things are even worse, vote for me or they’ll get much worse.August 17, 2020 12:23 pm at 12:23 pm #1892974
Here is why ‘the hospitals inflating the numbers’ doesn’t change much.
1. There is no fabricated patients. All the covid deaths or cases in the hospital, refer to actual patients. The question is what was their medical condition. Nobody is questioning their existence.
That already concedes that hospitals that reported large amounts of cases were overwhelmed, or close to that. It does not matter if they were there for infection, anxiety, or mischief. Either way, the hospital would have to deal with it.
2. Hospitals receive the extra funding whenever a coronavirus case is closed. Which would include the patient dying. Or leaving the hospital. It makes no difference how the patient leaves the hospital. Even if a patient fully recovers and leaves on his own feet, the hospital is eligible for the extra 20% reimbursement. [I assume this would be the same for patients that are transferred to a different hospital. It is also a closed case for the first hospital.]
There only seems to be an incentive to inflate total cases, not deaths. But they go together. (If someone had TDS and they listed him as coronavirus, if TDS would turn fatal then that would be a mislabeled coronavirus fatality.)
3. Hospitals only receive money for what they provide. (I do not know if this is only treatment, or is the bedding and so on included.) If the patient is deemed covid positive, they get the same money even for non covid related treatments. (Such as a broken foot.)
Either way, hospitals are dealing with an extraordinary amount of serious respiratory infections. Whether they are 95% or 70& percent coronavirus related, it is the same crisis.
4. The real data problem, is that there is no central way to manage the data. If someone tests positive twenty five times over three months before they finally test negative, how many cases is that counted as? There seems to be very little personal information taken at the time of the test.
While this leads to inflated numbers at the point of data collection, it points to a significant rate of infection. In other countries, they know almost everything about every individual case. Because they have tens of cases, not hundreds or thousands. The U. S. only has such confusion, because of it’s high caseload. Dropping a few thousand cases, does not change anything. We are nowhere near effective containment.
Ultimately, the impact of the pandemic could end up being measured as excess deaths in a two, five, and ten year span.August 17, 2020 12:53 pm at 12:53 pm #1892985
Nom – if a patient is tested 9 times and counted as 9 people, is that not a fabriction of patients on some level?
As for the rest of your post, most of it is misinformation. Or specific to some places. But ive spoken to people in the field in different cities in real life who say differentlyAugust 17, 2020 1:39 pm at 1:39 pm #1893037
I do not think you understood. 1) The overall data is not put together well. 2) Whatever cases we take off the total amount,it is still a major health crises. 3) There are a lot more people in the hospital than normal. That is a major concern, regardless if it coronavirus or something else.
I’m not sure why changing hospital deaths from coronavirus to, say, typhus is any better.August 17, 2020 2:44 pm at 2:44 pm #1893056
@quayboardwarrior what did joe do for the past 8 years ? Nothing!!! Trump accomplished much more if you can’t admit something really wrong with you. Your looking at cnnAugust 17, 2020 2:44 pm at 2:44 pm #1893057August 17, 2020 3:34 pm at 3:34 pm #1893067ParticipantParticipant
“I misunderstood the op” you’re not the 1st one, online or irl, to “misunderstond” me. it’s a typical symptom of not listening, or not reading my post. I offer therapy for the condition. feel free to reach out to me.
“epidemics have started wars…if this isn’t a call for leadership, then what is?” possibly the most insane thing I’ve read in a very long time, and trust me, I’ve seen a lot. which is more likely to lead to a war? everyone trapped at home, no economy, or 160000 dead people? now read what I wrote b4 spewing how my priorities are misplaced, and lives are more important than money.August 17, 2020 3:36 pm at 3:36 pm #1893075
Don’t assume my preferred sources of media information. Nor my political loyalties. I also did not ever mention anything about Biden. You seem to assume quite a lot.
I simply question your undying support of Trump, the man responsible leading the country for 4 years, a country so obviously worse off than it was 4 years ago.August 17, 2020 8:03 pm at 8:03 pm #1893175
Most of Trump’s ’16 platform was about dismantling big government. (ACA SS TPT NATO) To say he accomplished so much, is to say he did not fulfill his agenda. Would you mind listing some accomplishments?August 18, 2020 4:05 am at 4:05 am #1893227
“You can’t white wash 170,000 people dead.”
Every single dead person is a sad thing and a tragedy for their nuclear unit.
However, when the country was shut down (really most of the world) we were told to expect about a 2 percent death rate. Two percent of about 330 million is almost 7 million.August 18, 2020 1:54 pm at 1:54 pm #1893369
2% mortality rate of COVID cases. Not 2% of the population. So the more transmission of the virus was suppressed, via lockdowns, social distancing measures etc, the less deaths.
South Korea for example had their first case the same day as the US. Jan 20th. And by mid Feb had more case then the US
Yet by swiftly implementing measures, only had 306 deaths out of a population of 51 million.
The 170,000 is testament to a terrible handling of the pandemic.August 18, 2020 1:58 pm at 1:58 pm #1893399
Not so. In the begining it was stated very clearly thst we cannot prevent exposure and deaths, the plan was to slow it down to keep the system from getting overwhelmed and buy time for more knowledge on how to treat it. She is correct.August 18, 2020 2:19 pm at 2:19 pm #1893406
Dear Syag, that seems to support Quay. Though to be honest, Interjection’s point makes no sense to me.August 18, 2020 2:46 pm at 2:46 pm #1893418
As you say, flattening the curve was to slow the spread until a cure or vaccine is found. So exposure and deaths are certainly preventable. The flatter the curve, the less deaths by the time a cure or vaccine is found.
But regardless, @interjection’s point doesn’t stand. Because the Trump administration has not done an incredible job of handling COVID and “only” 170,000 are dead rather than 2% of the population. As every single country in the world seem to somehow be fairing better.August 18, 2020 2:52 pm at 2:52 pm #1893431
@Quayboardwarrior Do you always complain or only because it’s Trump guarantee it would not been better if anything worst. Hashem is in charge. Don’t forgetAugust 18, 2020 3:01 pm at 3:01 pm #1893440
I have read through your posts on this thread several times. If you can please link or post what Charlie wrote to initiate this topic.
It seems like we agree on most points. Trump is not a doctor. And he is not the destination for medical advice. People should have followed their doctor’s advice, and not the media’s opinions. [There is a problem here that people do not listen to the doctors anyway. As was shown by the measles outbreak.]
I am not sure how much we agree on assessing the pandemic in general. There are two issues. 1) A global health crises. A lot of patients. Overwhelmed hospitals. Lack of protective gear. People to sick to work. Cities being shutdown. Lack of effective medications. Efforts to find a vaccine. Typical stuff that we see every year or so. [On a much smaller scale.]
2) The other major issue is that this was a little known virus, and still is an unknown disease. Odd symptoms. Unclear diagnoses. Lack of known treatments. Nobody could say what the long term side effects are. On this part the Trump Administration did their part. They put forth a lot of funding for research. They eliminated less needed steps to hurry along potential vaccines. They did not interfere with the scientists.
However just dealing with the first part, requires a lot of cooperation. Smaller state governments, are not capable of dealing with all these issues at once. Some states banded together to be more efficient. Our obese Federal Government exists precisely for these major events that the states cannot handle. I think we agree that the states did most of the work. And Trump picked up some of the tab.
The federal response was full of contradictions. The CDC bungled testing. The problems seemed to indicate a lack of leadership. Instinctively, people point to the president. However, the president has more to worry about than just public health. Obama was not the front man on Ebola or H1n1. At some point, it seemed like Pence was supposed to be the front man. I do not know what happened there.August 18, 2020 3:03 pm at 3:03 pm #1893442
Quay- i said no such thing. And nobody else was informed enough to do so either. The plan given was to flatten the curve so sick people can be pouring in in smaller shifts, and that we can have more time to know what we are battling. Nobody was stupid enough to claim we were holding off til a vaccine or cure. That’s nonsense. Nobody said we wouldn’t have crazy numbers of deaths, they just wanted them coming in more slowly.August 18, 2020 3:08 pm at 3:08 pm #1893448
Hashem is in charge. As long as you cannot think of an answer.August 18, 2020 3:08 pm at 3:08 pm #1893451
“2% mortality rate of COVID cases. Not 2% of the population. So the more transmission of the virus was suppressed, via lockdowns, social distancing measures etc, the less deaths.”
The media and government told us that without lockdowns, almost everyone would get it and it would lead to well upwards of 3-4 million deaths. They kept saying over and over, Nancy Pelosi specifically comes to mind, that there would be at least 3-4 million deaths if we dont do a shutdown.
The lockdowns, social distancing measures, etc. saved millions of lives, which is a good thing.
But why is the USA (which has one of the biggest populations in the world) comparing itself to every tiny country. Rather we should be judging it on a state by state basis. Or, if the USA is one country, then so is all of Europe.
Also, we know that China, Iran and possibly Russia among other countries, are massively downplaying their numbers.August 18, 2020 3:15 pm at 3:15 pm #1893460
Proud, be proud of your belief and don’t do anything to help yourself. יכול שהוא יושב בטל ת’ל בכל מעשך אשר תעשה indicating a person should not sit idly by but do what he can. Help yourself and Hashem will help you.August 18, 2020 4:06 pm at 4:06 pm #1893488
@Redlazar I do everything I can and what I’m supposed to do and I don’t over due it Bh my Dr. is not dem and he says overAugust 18, 2020 4:40 pm at 4:40 pm #1893507
When were we ever actually told 2% of the population would die? Can you point me in the direction of a credible source for that?
Given these comments were made in reference to Trump’s actions, Trump actually claimed until mid-March were that it’s a couple of cases and will all go away soon.
After which, his administration soon adopted the projections of the IHME. Whose models were at the time suggesting a death rate of 60,000.August 18, 2020 4:46 pm at 4:46 pm #1893515
Quay- no, sorry. I am not able to source you someone else’s quote.August 18, 2020 4:47 pm at 4:47 pm #1893516
Why are you so sure another leader would have done a worse job managing the pandemic?
And just because the past was Hashem’s will does not mean those involved should not be held accountable for their actions.August 18, 2020 5:47 pm at 5:47 pm #1893529
First you say:
“Not so. In the begining it was stated very clearly thst we cannot prevent exposure and deaths, ”
But cannot source that.
You also say
“the plan was to slow it down to keep the system from getting overwhelmed and buy time for more knowledge on how to treat it.”
But also… “Nobody was stupid enough to claim we were holding off til a vaccine or cure. ”
Which one is it?August 18, 2020 5:49 pm at 5:49 pm #1893531
Will Cumo be accountable for his killings?
Trump listened to every governor that asked him for anything he give it to them right away. They said they need more room in hospital he sent the boat they needed equipment they got it. What else should he have done ? It doesn’t mean these dems messed up that doesn’t mean you should blame trump. Why don’t you blame faucci? Faucci didn’t do anything good. He didn’t know anything so I’m not hearing anything trump should’ve done.August 18, 2020 7:14 pm at 7:14 pm #1893544
Trump down played the effect of the virus being afraid of the economic affect and did not show leadership to fight it, but he delegated it to the states. Rather than setting certain measurable guidelines to live up to opening the economy, he encouraged the states on their own discretiion as he is doing with the schools. This caused tbe increase of infections and cases causiing more death.August 18, 2020 8:35 pm at 8:35 pm #1893563
Quay- you asked me to source the 2%, i said it wasn’t my statement.
Now you are thinking those two statements are contradictory? The lock down was to flatten the curve so people could come in a few weeks/month apart instead of filling the hallways. These weeks would be valuabke in learning anything we can for the april patient that we didn’t know for the march patient. Such as the extent of the contagion. And in may they knew more about lower vent pressure etc.
Nobody said waiting to come out of lockdown for vaccines or cures (besides you) as that would be 18 months or more. People were expected to pass this around and people were expected to die, but the hope was that they wouldn’t die from ppe shortage or on gurneys in the hallways.August 18, 2020 10:09 pm at 10:09 pm #1893588
The fatality rate in the USA is 3-6%. Not a good statistic.August 19, 2020 5:17 am at 5:17 am #1893663
“When were we ever actually told 2% of the population would die? Can you point me in the direction of a credible source for that?”
The Washington Post wrote an article around April titled, “is the coronavirus as deadly as they say” and they wrote that we had previously thought that 2 million would die.
The University of Washington posted an article around the same time titled, “staggering death rate in US among those who show symptoms”, where they stated that 1.2 million would die without drastic measures.
Reuters also had an article around the same time where they stated that 2 million would die without lockdowns.
Originally the government told us 14 days to overcome covid-19. Then they added on a week. Then another. Then indefinitely. Then until July. Then until October 31. Now until 2022.
This paragraph is my OPINION, so read at your own risk. 170,000 is actually over 1 million saved so in that case trump did an amazing job. 6 people died in NY yesterday from covid, which is probably less than the number of people who died in accidents and we are not banning highways. The battle seems to be over and we can completely reopen without threats of us being mass murderers.August 19, 2020 8:46 am at 8:46 am #1893714
This is what happens when you dont proofread.
I just realize a major mistake in my post.
I wrote, “Originally the government told us 14 days to overcome covid-19.”
That was incorrect. The slogan was, “14 days to flatten the curve”. No one would have agreed to stay home if they thought it might be for more than 2 weeks. Sometime later, after the government kept extending the lockdowns, they stopped talking about flattening the curve and instead spoke about saving all lives.
When people realized that everything would be closed indefinitely, many people got angry and started protesting that they want to be able to open their business. They were called murderers by the media and the government and the restrictions were tightened.
Then, people started protesting for social justice and the government and media praised them to the heavens for their bravery in raising awareness to these causes. Even Fauci agreed with them.
Like it or not, the reasons I stated are the reasons that people on the right feel that the left is betraying them. They think we forgot the original intention of the lockdowns.They think we dont realize the hypocrisy in allowing people to protest social justice but forbidding protests for not being allowed to work.August 19, 2020 9:34 am at 9:34 am #1893728
Thank you! I have tried to make that point. It falls on deaf ears. And you said it so much better and clearer than I could.
I tried explaining this to a relative who was complaining about people who will pass her too closely on a sidewalk or in a supermarket. I told her that from my personal experiences we took this very very seriously until the mayors said nothing about the protest. I said if it was legitimately a health risk they wouldn’t be allowing it for any reason. Her response was, but it’s a right to protest. I told her that’s a dumb response, if a fireman approaches a burning building and you tell him that you don’t want to move out of the way because you are amidst a protest he’ll tell you to jump in the lake because it’s really a health risk. When something is legitimate there are no exceptions. When you start making exceptions you’ve made it clear that it’s not a legitimate health risk.August 19, 2020 12:52 pm at 12:52 pm #1893773
I do not have a problem with your overall point. But a legitimate health risk, does not depend on human perspective. And using the perspective of mayors that were in a tough spot, is just a silly way to prove anything.
The risk is still real. Extended stay at home orders worked. If we are not vigilant it could come back worse than before. Politics do not help.
Fighting over masks and being paranoid about public behavior is misplaced. But it is hard to talk sense to the fearful, as well as the faithful.August 19, 2020 1:02 pm at 1:02 pm #1893790
Dear n0mesorah, if the stay at home orders worked so why were there so many cases in New York ? Obviously it didn’t work. And it also sounds like your hashem that you will predict that it will come back. It’s not up to you. It’s up to the one above.August 19, 2020 1:28 pm at 1:28 pm #1893793
It worked very well, in that they were able to reopen without having a surge in cases. And they have not needed to shut down again.August 19, 2020 1:28 pm at 1:28 pm #1893794
I did not predict anything. Hashem made your existence in such a way, that you can examine what is around you and come up with an understanding of how it works. Please stop insulting His handiwork.August 19, 2020 1:52 pm at 1:52 pm #1893801
Nom- nobody said a health risk depends on human perspective. We were only sheltered in place because of the government declarations based on their consultation with experts. Once those officials and experts start to make leniencies at will, it becomes evident that the danger is not real. The danger of covid is real, but if it truly was dangerous to leave the house, if life truly depended on it, there would not have been so many feeble exceptions.
In the next breath you go on to state the risk is real etc etc. Says who? You often speak so unequivocally here but these are your opinions, based on your readings and experiences. Not everyone agrees with you at this point in time. Maybe i do, or maybe not, but it won’t be because you decided to state it as fact.
We’ve had epidemics before. But none like this. I chose to follow the guidelines of those with the first hand knowledge to know whats right. Until they made clear it was optional.
It is indeed hard to talk to the fearful, faithful, and well educated.August 19, 2020 1:53 pm at 1:53 pm #1893798
There was no surge or they did not need to shut down, because majority of people in New York got the virus. So how did that help? And let me tell you something even in the Republican states like Florida that had a surge no they did not shut down again. I was there and everything was opened. So the dems do not know what their doing.August 19, 2020 3:52 pm at 3:52 pm #1893880
No, the risk is not based on how I stated it, nor how I understand it. Because that is still just human perspective. If this was an epidemic of a known disease such as typhus or influenza, than we could just follow directives. Because we already have the know how of past experience.
Being that we are dealing with a new disease, there has been a lot of confusion. (We could assume that everybody was wrong about something at some point.) To say that it is behind us, is pure conjecture. There is still at the very least a risk in that we will not know when it is for sure over. To say that we know for a fact that it is behind us, is a boldface lie. We may may not know that it is behind, even when it is. The same way we did not know it was among us, until sometime after.
The guidelines in this country gave a lot of leeway. The problem is that people are taking it as an all or nothing approach. The more precautions we take, the more freedom we eventually retain. (This could be a motto for general life. I am not taking credit for claiming to know something with that one.) In Europe, fans started attending soccer matches in June. And, they were clear to travel anywhere in the world. Do you think that was good for their economy?
Besides the social justice protests, there were stay at home protests. The Governors were unable to do much about it. Why do take that as a leniency? And it did not make it evident to me that the danger is not real. I took it as it is not up to what the Governor decrees. It is/was up to the people to make it work.
“It is indeed hard to talk to the fearful, faithful, and well educated.”
I laughed. Thanks!August 19, 2020 3:53 pm at 3:53 pm #1893885
A majority of NYC did not got the virus. Maybe a fifth. It takes longer than that to get to ten million people. This is not a purely scientific response. It is a mathematical one.
It helped, that there was no setback when the Northeast reopened.
Miami had a second shut down. As well as many other cities and states.
The second shutdowns were not as harsh as the first. There was a lot more knowledge available in June then in March. This allowed for a more focused battle. (Young people partying.) And there was better testing. People could get tested and go about life. But those states are not really past their second curve yet, so let’s wait a bit to see what it proves. (How fast can they reopen.)
I have no idea what you are talking about with everything being opened. Stadiums, festivals, and concerts, are still being cancelled across the country. Viruses are not political. Are you saying that all viruses vote Republican?August 19, 2020 4:08 pm at 4:08 pm #1893910
1. I don’t think you understood any of my post.
2. I don’t think i agree with any of your response.August 19, 2020 5:39 pm at 5:39 pm #1893958
I feel like we are basically of the same opinion. Just facing in different directions. You think that if this was a deadly outbreak of say, malaria; things would be just as confusing?August 19, 2020 5:40 pm at 5:40 pm #1893956ParticipantParticipant
Charlie’s response was to 1’s thread “the damage of a Biden/Harris ticket”August 19, 2020 5:47 pm at 5:47 pm #1893965
Thanks!August 19, 2020 5:54 pm at 5:54 pm #1893969
I’m not sure how changing it to malaria makes a difference in our discussion. If people are going to decide that their view of reality is the one that’s right, and everyone else is misinformed, then nothing can change.August 20, 2020 11:07 am at 11:07 am #1894111
I get the feeling that you aremore skeptical then I am, if the shut downs worked.August 20, 2020 11:14 am at 11:14 am #1894113
I read his post and have two thoughts.
That post is tame on Trump. (Compared to his other posts.)
I disagree with your main point. There is much more a president can do with controlling a pandemic, than stopping a terror attack. But I agree that there has to be a concerted effort on the communal level, which is about us regular citizens and not the government alone.August 31, 2020 6:48 pm at 6:48 pm #1897362
Dr. Atlas wants to create heard immunity which to be effective might kill around 2 million people.August 31, 2020 11:32 pm at 11:32 pm #1897407HealthParticipant
RE -“Dr. Atlas wants to create heard immunity which to be effective might kill around 2 million people.”
Are you and the rest of the Libs that post here gonna Volunteer?!?
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.