October 17, 2008 9:54 pm at 9:54 pm #588436morechumrasMember
Considering that there are areas where we can all agree that the klal needs vast improvements in observance (for example the terrible amount of loshon horah spoken, and the terrible lack of tznius in some communities);
Considering that obviously the existing chumras are not sufficiently hindering many of us from breaching halachas in these areas;
Considering that one of the purposes of chumras is as a geder (“siyag ve-geder” – a hedge and a fence) against coming to do an actual aveira;
Therefore be it resolved that we call upon our Rabbonim (who are the arbiters in establishing chumras) to consider various areas where new chumras would benefit Klal Yisroel.
Now for those who are on principal opposed for a layman calling for the establishment of additional chumras (and feel it best be left to the deliberations of our Gedolim), I say your point is a fair one. But you only have a leg to stand on in advancing that argument if you are on the record as similarly opposing the various calls made in these hollowed blogs for a reduction in chumras.
Indeed removing an existing chumra is far more halachicly problematic than establishing a new one. If a Minhag has developed as a Siyag Ve-Geder to correct some michshol, and that Siyag Ve-Geder was effected by a Chacham and then it was ratified by being popularly adopted as the Minhag (i.e. the Minhag did not evolve from a Machlokes in Halacha but from some weakness in Mitzvah performance) then a new Chacham may not nullify that Minhag (see Teshuvos HaRosh 55:10 and Igros Moshe OH V.3, siman 64 and Igros Moshe YD V.1, siman 13).March 9, 2016 1:55 am at 1:55 am #1141463👑RebYidd23Participant
Chumrahs scare people away.March 9, 2016 2:20 am at 2:20 am #1141464JosephParticipant
Away from doing aveiras.March 9, 2016 2:27 am at 2:27 am #1141465
When the chachomim added the chumrah of muktzeh, it worked.March 9, 2016 2:29 am at 2:29 am #1141466
But I would add, that we can’t add our own or take away any on our own.March 9, 2016 2:49 am at 2:49 am #1141467Mashiach AgentMember
How about a chumra for no cell phones allowed to even enter mekomos hakedoshim like shuls and batei Medrash. Let’s restore the kedusha that a shul used to be.
No talking in shul anytime even between aliyos if you want or need to then go to the hallwayMarch 9, 2016 3:01 am at 3:01 am #1141468
Are the cbachamim politicians that they need to be petitioned? If they feel something is necessary on a public level they will speak up.March 9, 2016 3:12 am at 3:12 am #1141469zogt_besserParticipant
The anti-chumrah people would just say fakert–that because there are so many chumros already, people are misyaeish and give up on everything. It’s impossible to prove either way without talking to the people who are lax on these things.March 9, 2016 4:08 am at 4:08 am #1141470lesschumrasParticipant
Just remember, we lost Gan Eden because of s chumra. Hashem told Adom fon’t eat from the tree, but Adom told Chava don’t touch the tree and don’t eat. When the snake pushed her into the tree and nothing happened, she thought he was making up not eating from itMarch 9, 2016 4:11 am at 4:11 am #1141471
Not because of a chumra; because it was misrepresented.
If you look through Shas, Shulchan Aruch and poskim, you will see that inherently, chumras are a good thing.March 9, 2016 4:21 am at 4:21 am #1141472
I’m certainly no expert in shas. Is there a case where people petitioned the cbachamim for a chumra?March 9, 2016 4:25 am at 4:25 am #1141473
Off the top of my head, there are chumros in taharas hamishpachah which women accepted upon themselves which became binding.March 9, 2016 6:04 am at 6:04 am #1141474oilyhairParticipant
chumrah not to feel so holy about your own chumras. someone once said a wise thing:
U r in the middle frUm
anyone that does more than you is Fanatically Religious FRum
and anyone whose standards are lower than yours is modern fruM
eveyone pretty much uses themselves as the yardstick to how machmir and frum people are, and judge accordinglyMarch 9, 2016 6:15 am at 6:15 am #1141475american_yerushalmiParticipant
Note the aveilus observed during the Three Weeks (Bein Hameitzarim). At the end of Masechta Ta’anis, there is about one blat relating the halachos pertaining to Tisha B’av and the “shavua she’chal bo.” Yet in Tur and the Shulchan Aruch, we find many simanim on this topic, extending the availus back to 17th of Tammuz. The GRA writes that the Gedolei u’manhigei Hador at certain times, saw fit to add some chumros. This is due to the influence of the “airev rav,” who have always been present, and exist even today among us although their exact identity is unknown.
Even the chumros in tahara that “women accepted upon themselves,” with all due respect, became halacha pesuka only when the chachmei hador make it a takana. Which is what it is nowadays.
Only on certain matters of minhag, did the chachmei hador say “puk chazi mai dovar (or avid) alma” — “go out and determine what is the prevailing custom.” But, not when it comes to halachos, de’oraisa or even de’rabbonon.
So, Chumros decided upon by the Gedolei Hador are part of halachah today. Whereas chumros dreamed up by (often) bored folks, many of which have various social agendas besides enhancing Torah observance, are not and cannot be included in today’s body of halacha. No one has the authority to make takanos today. On occasion and as needed, the gedolei haposkim of our times have ruled le’hachmir on many matters. It is not our place to try to get into their holy minds and second guess their intentions why they paskened the way they did. If a certain group or community wishes to follow a particular stringency, and their rav/rebbe/poek concurs, so of course, there’s nothing wrong and everything right about it. But beyond that, we need to consult the gedolei poskei halacha how to conduct ourselves.March 9, 2016 11:59 am at 11:59 am #1141476theprof1Participant
There is an interesting Rabbeinu Tam in a tosfos in mesechta Beitza where the Rabbeinu Tam says, I don’t know where the people made so many chumras lately. I didn’t see any of this in my grandfather’s home (Rashi). Rashi himself says on the gemorah, that a heter is better because to be machmir you don’t have to know the real halacha, you just say ossur and that’s it. To give a heter you have to know the halacha clearly. My father z’l would say that a very big meikal is called a “kal”. Therefore a very big machmir would be called a “chamor”.March 9, 2016 12:10 pm at 12:10 pm #1141477
You didn’t answer my question though. Is there a case where the people petitioned the cbachamim to create chumros as is suggested by the op. No need to look far for chumros that communities or the klal as a whole have adopted. How many of those came about as a result a petition.March 9, 2016 1:23 pm at 1:23 pm #1141478
Never through a CR thread, that’s for sure.
Not sure the point of your question.March 9, 2016 2:04 pm at 2:04 pm #1141479BarryLS1Participant
If people won’t accept a Chumrah, you create more problems than you solve. Even the smartphone issue, all a smartphone is, is a computer. You can put filters on it just as you can a computer.
You see many Chareidim with smartphones, sometimes as a hidden phone and use the dumb phone when it public. The whole issue makes no sense, especially since it take so long to load any graphics on a phone, especially as compared to a computer. Ban the computer then too.
The only way chumrahs will work is if they are universally accepted among all or at least most Frum people. Not when one Rov comes up with something and puts pressure on others to go along.March 9, 2016 3:25 pm at 3:25 pm #1141480zahavasdadParticipant
The more laws you have , the more law breakers you haveMarch 9, 2016 3:35 pm at 3:35 pm #1141481nishtdayngesheftParticipant
“The more laws you have , the more law breakers you have”
Perhaps all laws should be eliminated, then there would be no law breakers at all.
You can eliminate all crime. You are ready for politics.March 9, 2016 3:36 pm at 3:36 pm #1141482gavra_at_workParticipant
There is no such thing as a Gezairah that Rov Tzibbur accepts anymore. Chumrahs? If they are private, then Zachur LaTov.
Public Chumrahs are just a way of showing off that you are more Frum than the next Yankel, and your children should be allowed into the elite (or even communal Chassidic) Yeshiva.March 9, 2016 4:09 pm at 4:09 pm #1141483lesschumrasParticipant
How can a chumrah become halacha? By definition, a chumrah is a stringency added on to a halachaMarch 9, 2016 4:16 pm at 4:16 pm #1141484zahavasdadParticipant
you have to balance between at what point more laws become useless
Take the speed limit for example
Every time you lower the speed limit, more people will break it, When you hit the speed limit a 1 MPH everyone will break the law of course if you increase the limit at some point it because unsafe, yes you have less lawbreakers but the danger is more.March 9, 2016 5:35 pm at 5:35 pm #1141485gavra_at_workParticipant
How can a chumrah become halacha? By definition, a chumrah is a stringency added on to a halacha
By becoming an accepted minhag Yehudim.March 9, 2016 7:01 pm at 7:01 pm #1141486
“Not sure the point of your question.”
Let me explain then.
. OP suggests we petition the chachamim for more chumras.
. Someone chimed in that chazal have enacted many chumros throughout our history with muktzeh but one example.
. All other examples cited so far, are things enacted by Chazal when they saw a need to do so.
. So I asked. Was there ever a takana (chumra if you wish) exacted by chazal that was done because they were petitioned to do so. Certainly on an individual level people have gone to their Rebbe, Rav etc. and have discussed ways to improve their avodas hashem and were given guidance to take on certain things, but, on the klal level has this ever been done?March 9, 2016 7:27 pm at 7:27 pm #1141487JosephParticipant
apy: Wouldn’t the chumros in taharas hamishpachah which women accepted upon themselves, that DY earlier referred to, meet the criteria you’re asking for?March 9, 2016 10:27 pm at 10:27 pm #1141488
The women took it upon themselves to be machmir. They did not petition chazal to create these chumros. To quote the OP “Therefore be it resolved that we call upon our Rabbonim (who are the arbiters in establishing chumras) to consider various areas where new chumras would benefit Klal Yisroel.”March 9, 2016 10:35 pm at 10:35 pm #1141489mordernMember
Dear lesscumrus I learnec that chavah was punishec becuse Adom did not tell her that Hashem told him tnat there is a Mitzvah to eat from the rest of the trees for then the mitzvah of enjoying this world would of saved her from the ?????.March 9, 2016 11:56 pm at 11:56 pm #1141490CopyMachineParticipant
I can’t understand for the life of me why you guys are suggesting adding chumros when there are so many simple levels of doing mitzvos that are being neglected!
Look at the tznuis of our generation, the obsession with electronics, the low level of kashrus (people used to make everything themselves, now we eat things somebody in Cambodia made…)… Chumros are a personal matter. Let someone who has mastered basic observance add chumros.March 10, 2016 12:23 am at 12:23 am #1141491theprof1Participant
Copy Machine hit the nail perfectly. Lets try to just be regular yiddishkeit and torah life jews. people who hardly know all hilchos shabbos or all hilchos of ossur food, and they need chumras? do what plain shulchan orech asks of you and be happy.March 10, 2016 1:07 am at 1:07 am #1141492squeakParticipant
As I’ve always commented to generations of chavrusas, I’m sure the women had some ‘help’ in choosing to accept those stringencies.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.