September 12, 2013 9:03 pm at 9:03 pm #610599JCCSGMember
I was asked by a lot of people, therefore i’m sending a list of IV Center’s provided by our heroic Chevra Hatzolah.
<-strong-><-em->As a reminder, please discuss with your Rabbe/Rav AND Doctor regarding your fasting, taking your medications, and/or about taking IV (Intravenous) fluids.</-strong-></-em->
On Yom Kipur:
<-blockquote->ODA, 14 Heyward St. – from 10:00am till 4:00pm</-blockquote->
<-blockquote->Quality Health Center, 432 Bedford Ave. – from 12:00pm till 4:00pm</-blockquote->
For more info and for house calls please call Chevra Hatzalah special line: 718-534-5050
Erev Yom Kipur (Starting the IV line):
<-blockquote->Bobov Shul, 1538 48th St. – from 1:00pm from 6:00pm</-blockquote->
On Yom Kipur
<-blockquote->Bobov Shul, 1538 48th St. – from 8:00am from 7:00pm</-blockquote->
<-blockquote->Belz Shul, 1321 43rd St. – from 8:00am from 7:00pm</-blockquote->
<-blockquote->Statcare, 1153 58th St. – from 8:00am from 7:00pm</-blockquote->
<-blockquote->Bobov Shul, 1721 58th St. – from 8:00am from 7:00pm</-blockquote->
For more info and for house calls please call Bobov Bikur Cholim: 718-851-2500
Please call: Hatzolah 845-425-1600
Please call: 845-659-5886
Please call: Refuah V’Chesed, 514-357-2167 Ext. #8
Have an easy fast!!!September 13, 2013 3:22 pm at 3:22 pm #1104862
Not sure what the OP is about. A person who needs an IV started is usually a choleh sh’yesh bo sakana in which case, what’s the shaileh? Are you speaking about folks who take regular infusions like for chemo?
If a person is not really sick, just very hungry or thirsty, maybe feeling a little head-achy, An IV is cheating. Yeah, it lo c’derech achilah but, c’mon! It says v’anisem es nafshoseichem. your supposed to feel a little crummy.
Another real cheat I’ve heard is coffee fiends using caffein suppositories to get their “fix”.September 13, 2013 3:39 pm at 3:39 pm #1104863writersoulParticipant
Redleg: Poskim have ruled on this, you know, and many say that it’s completely fine as it’s not achilah (an exception is R’ Moshe). If someone asks a shailah and is given the go-ahead then why would it be cheating?September 13, 2013 4:42 pm at 4:42 pm #1104864
Yes Poskim have ruled on this, and yes, as I mentioned above, it is not “eating” but what about the assei? I think me and R’ Moshe, ZTL are on the same page about this. If a person has a legitimate medical reason, as determined by his or her doctor and competent rabbinic authority, to be oiver the assei, mutav, but just being uncomfortable, even very uncomfortable, doesn’t seem to me to be sufficient to be doche. And the less said about caffein suppositories, the better.September 13, 2013 7:57 pm at 7:57 pm #1104865writersoulParticipant
As soon as someone asks you for a psak, tell them that.
(This is not meant to be offensive at all- there are definitely rabbanim who say no when asked about IVs. But the fact that a very large number says yes doesn’t mean that they’re unnecessarily meikil just because it would seem so intuitively.)September 13, 2013 8:09 pm at 8:09 pm #1104866
You will notice that I qualified my post with phrases like “I think” and “it seems to me”. The above posts are are my opinion. Nothing posted on this blog by anybody should be taken as psak halacha. My views on the matter apply to me. If you agree, fine. if not, also fine. Gemar chasima tova.September 13, 2013 8:21 pm at 8:21 pm #1104867oomisParticipant
Anyone with a medical condition so serious that it necessitates getting IV fluids, is surely a sakanas nefashos case. I cannot imagine a rov thinking otherwise. It is not achila. One cannot just on a whim get an IV somewhere.September 13, 2013 8:38 pm at 8:38 pm #1104868
Oomis, that’s what I said in my first post/October 9, 2015 3:16 pm at 3:16 pm #1104869atlossParticipant
I know this is an old thread but I was looking for something else and came across it.
The comments above are grossly mistaken. There are minor conditions that require one to be well hydrated and the person is not a sakana without it.
What if someone does not have a colon and is prone to dehydration. They are not a choleh sheyesh bo sakana? But they still may need fluids to prevent dehydration and potential Uti or kidney infections.
What about patients who receive non critical infusions such as iron or biologics ( remicade…)
It is not as simple as it is made to be.
Furthermore, R, Moshe ztl does not Chas veshalom need out haskama and our agreement.October 9, 2015 3:39 pm at 3:39 pm #1104870
If someone needs fluids on yom kippur, and refuses a drink, you don’t give him an IV. You simply let the fool die. Putting an IV in is an issur melacha d’oraisah.October 11, 2015 5:06 am at 5:06 am #1104871
PBA – “You simply let the fool die.”
I’d assume you’re joking. But there are cases that you’d be right. If the pt. wasn’t in danger until it was too late. Btw, I’ve put in lines for pts. on Erev Yom Kippur.October 11, 2015 12:56 pm at 12:56 pm #1104872ivoryMember
What’s wrong with caffeine suppositories?October 11, 2015 2:15 pm at 2:15 pm #1104873
Putting an IV in is an issur melacha d’oraisah.
I would think d’rabbonon, but regardless, his foolishness shouldn’t change the fact that it’s pikuach nefesh.October 11, 2015 2:39 pm at 2:39 pm #1104874
DY – “it’s pikuach nefesh.”
Not all cases are “pikuach nefesh”, we all need fluids every day, but most of us fast anyway!October 11, 2015 3:57 pm at 3:57 pm #1104875
The case referred to was a case of pikuach nefesh, where the patient was a fool for refusing to drink.October 11, 2015 3:58 pm at 3:58 pm #1104876
I would think d’rabbonon, but regardless, his foolishness shouldn’t change the fact that it’s pikuach nefesh.
It certainly does. The guy who is subject to pikuach nefesh isn’t allowed to decide that he doesn’t want to do any issurim so someone else should do issurim instead.
I’d assume you’re joking. But there are cases that you’d be right. If the pt. wasn’t in danger until it was too late. Btw, I’ve put in lines for pts. on Erev Yom Kippur.
I’m not joking at all.October 11, 2015 3:59 pm at 3:59 pm #1104877
Of course he’s not allowed to, but neither are you allowed to let him die for that.October 11, 2015 4:08 pm at 4:08 pm #1104878
In fact you are chayav skila if you do not let him die.October 11, 2015 4:10 pm at 4:10 pm #1104879👑RebYidd23Participant
You make him drink.October 11, 2015 4:17 pm at 4:17 pm #1104880
RY23, true, you’d have to try to force it down his throat. Assuming that (or similar option) was not possible, you’d be oiver on lo sa’amod all dam reiecha if you didn’t give him IV.October 11, 2015 4:20 pm at 4:20 pm #1104881
Popa, which melachah would he be oiver on? I think chaburah would be melachah she’einah tzrichah l’gufah.October 11, 2015 5:24 pm at 5:24 pm #1104882
PBA – “The guy who is subject to pikuach nefesh isn’t allowed to decide that he doesn’t want to do any issurim so someone else should do issurim instead”
Lets get it straight, you said it’s P.N., so anyone who is able to help – must! If he (the pt.) can’t or won’t, s/o else should. Many times pts. have to be restrained in order to treat them.October 11, 2015 5:36 pm at 5:36 pm #1104883
DY – “RY23, true, you’d have to try to force it down his throat.”
You can try to convince him to drink, but you can’t Force him. If you try to “force it down his throat”, you might kill him by causing him to choke!October 11, 2015 5:41 pm at 5:41 pm #1104884
Could be. I was speaking from a halachic perspective, but I’ll defer to you medically.October 11, 2015 5:48 pm at 5:48 pm #1104885newbeeMember
I believe Rov Elyashiv tried it one year towards his final years and thought it was a little too easy for himself personally because it took away any hunger.October 11, 2015 6:02 pm at 6:02 pm #1104886
Lets get it straight, you said it’s P.N., so anyone who is able to help – must! If he (the pt.) can’t or won’t, s/o else should. Many times pts. have to be restrained in order to treat them.
If this guy is committing suicide, I need to be mechalel Yom Kippur to save him? I don’t agree.October 11, 2015 6:33 pm at 6:33 pm #1104887JosephParticipant
Popa, if you saw someone about to jump off a bridge, you wouldn’t be mechallel Shabbos to save him?October 11, 2015 6:44 pm at 6:44 pm #1104888
See M.B. 316:30 that many cases are mekalkel and only d’rabbobon. I think this would fit that category.October 11, 2015 6:55 pm at 6:55 pm #1104889
Popa, if you saw someone about to jump off a bridge, you wouldn’t be mechallel Shabbos to save him?
I don’t think his position, in a case where the guy is practically a meizid, necessitates saying the same in a case where the person is mentally distraught.October 11, 2015 7:08 pm at 7:08 pm #1104890
DY, that very MB says hakazat dam is m’sakein.October 11, 2015 7:32 pm at 7:32 pm #1104891
This isn’t hakazas dam.October 11, 2015 7:35 pm at 7:35 pm #1104892
Popa, if you saw someone about to jump off a bridge, you wouldn’t be mechallel Shabbos to save him?
Not unless he had the din of a shoteh. You would?October 11, 2015 8:17 pm at 8:17 pm #1104893
I would.October 11, 2015 10:08 pm at 10:08 pm #11048942scentsParticipant
As posted above, most places that did IVs only did it after making sure that the person consulted with their doctor as well as their rav.
People that are not able to fast do not get IV,IV fluids is just normal saline not other nutrients that they need.
Its mainly done to help people that would otherwise fast, yet have a difficult time fasting, keeping them hydrated makes it easier for them to fast.October 12, 2015 1:37 am at 1:37 am #1104895atlossParticipant
Popa, in this case the patient is not refusing to drink. he has a medical condition that makes it hard for him to drink. he needs the line placed to get the proper nutrients.
remember that drinking on yom kippur is asur deorisa as well, its just that when someone’s life is in danger either a) there is a mitzva to be mechalel and save him or b) the mitzva is temporarily voided while you do what you need to do to save him
if someone is severely dehydrated, forcing them to drink is actually dangerous. but if one is at such a point of dehydration than they need to be hospitalized either wayOctober 12, 2015 2:05 am at 2:05 am #1104896charliehallParticipant
If someone is in such a severe condition that they need IV fluids, it is ASUR to ask a shilah — you give them the fluids! Pikuach nefesh trumps Yom Kippur! By seeking out a rabbi to ask a shilah you are further endangering the life of a Jew!!!!
This YK I saw two doctors order a woman who was faint to drink water. A rabbi oversaw the entire thing and did not interfere.October 12, 2015 2:06 am at 2:06 am #1104897charliehallParticipant
” if you saw someone about to jump off a bridge, you wouldn’t be mechallel Shabbos to save him?”
I would be mechallel everything except forbidden relations, idolatry, and shedding blood!!! This isn’t a shilah!!!!!!October 12, 2015 2:22 am at 2:22 am #1104898MammeleParticipant
You guys do realize that the original post was not about actually INSERTING the IV line on Yom Kippur, right? And there may be non Jews working on YK to hook up the IV fluids.
These are done I assume for patients, pregnant women or the elderly that know in advance that they will have significant hardship and perhaps endanger themselves by fasting yet would rather not drink — even though some may give them a heter to do so. It’s planned so actual chillul Y”T is avoided and Hatzolah members are saved from running (driving) to so many emergencies.October 12, 2015 4:00 am at 4:00 am #1104899
DY, I know it’s not, but is there any reason to differentiate between the two?October 12, 2015 4:05 am at 4:05 am #1104900
Of course. Hakazas dam is the intentional loss of blood for a tikkun, and while the IV itself is certainly a tikkun, the inevitable loss of blood is of no benefit and is in fact a kilkul.October 12, 2015 4:14 am at 4:14 am #1104901
I’m thinking now that it might indeed be d’Oraisa. The practitioner needs to see blood return to know that the vein has been properly accessed, so even though you don’t actually need the blood, you need to see the bleeding, so it’s a tikkun.October 12, 2015 4:30 am at 4:30 am #1104902
dy, that would make it a ????? ????? ????? ?????, not a ?????.October 12, 2015 4:45 am at 4:45 am #1104903
That’s actually what I originally said, but it seems that bleeding is inherently bad, so unless there’s a tikkun, it’s mekalkel. That nafka mina is that even according to the shittah that ???”? is chayav, mekalkel is pattur.October 12, 2015 12:57 pm at 12:57 pm #1104904
PBA – “If this guy is committing suicide, I need to be mechalel Yom Kippur to save him? I don’t agree”
Don’t be an Ipschah Mistavrah! This isn’t a case of suicide. Most people don’t know how sick they are. They should treat him even on YK!October 12, 2015 1:11 pm at 1:11 pm #1104905
Mammele – “These are done I assume for patients, pregnant women or the elderly that know in advance that they will have significant hardship and perhaps endanger themselves by fasting yet would rather not drink — even though some may give them a heter to do so. It’s planned so actual chillul Y”T is avoided and Hatzolah members are saved from running (diving) to so many emergencies”
You got the first part right, not the second! Ya know about V’nishmartem Meod etc.?October 12, 2015 3:52 pm at 3:52 pm #11049062scentsParticipant
Being that I am very familiar with the process of most sites that were doing IV, some had the IV lock inserted before Yom Kipur, others had a non Jew establish the line on Yom Kipur.
No one had a Yid establish the line on Yom Kippur, most poskim hold that creating IV access is a ???????? and any patient that is sick enough that requires IV should probably not be fasting.
Getting flashback while creating IV confirms IV placement so its not really a mekalkel.October 12, 2015 4:56 pm at 4:56 pm #1104907mw13Participant
If this guy is committing suicide, I need to be mechalel Yom Kippur to save him? I don’t agree.
What if he doesn’t realize he’s committing suicide?October 12, 2015 6:35 pm at 6:35 pm #1104908
dy, from .??? ??
??”? ?”? ????? ?? ?????.
it seems that whether when there’s a side ????? it’s still considered ?????, is ???? on whether ????? ????? ????? ????? is ????. Therefore, in such a case, where the ????? is in the IV but not inherent in the ???? if you hold ????? ????? ????? ????? is ???? it also wouldn’t be considered ????? because the fact that he’s doing it for constructive purposes is enough to render it ????.October 12, 2015 6:52 pm at 6:52 pm #1104909MammeleParticipant
Health: exactly which part do you disagree with? I never said anyone was right for not fasting, but nonetheless some people think that way – i.e. they can’t consider eating on YK despite it being the right thing to do.October 12, 2015 7:46 pm at 7:46 pm #1104911
Mammele – “Health: exactly which part do you disagree with?”
The second part; and I posted that. I posted my reason. Your reasons are Not reasons!
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