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  • This topic contains 283 replies, has 67 voices, and was last updated by  oomis 10 years ago.
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  • #665023

    flatbush27
    Member

    sjs: if you saw a choshuve talmid chacham wearing jeans i think most people would think thats not bikovidig or just think ok, thats a bit weird. why? because people judge others by how they dress and act and people should dress and act according to how they want to be looked at. what a person wears is what makes a person. a yeshiva bachur who wears dark pants and a white shirt every single day and then one random day he will put on a pair of jeans and a t shirt for the first time in his life will act differently than usual and people will view him differently. if your friend doesnt care that people think hes someone hes not then fine but majority of people do care what others think of them and they dress/act accordingly

    #665024

    Josh31
    Participant

    “if you saw a choshuve talmid chacham wearing jeans”

    He had to do some work with his hands, either to fix something around the house or to make some money.

    #665025

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    because people judge others by how they dress and act and people should dress and act according to how they want to be looked at.

    So what you are saying is that I have to dress to your perceptions? Sorry, thats not happening. I dress according to halacha and then according to the situation I am in. I am not going to dress for your prejudices and ill concieved notions, when they arent against halacha. It might be time to be introspective and say “Why am I judging a person like this? What middah do I have to change, rather than trying to get them to change something that isnt against halacha.”

    Why should my friend care what random people in Monsey think? Is he rebelling against society? NO. Is he doing anything wrong? NO. If people want to think he is doing something wrong, that is up to them. But what ever happened to being dan lekaf zechus? Especially when it comes to a non-halachic issue…

    There is a difference if you see someone you know do something spitefully – for example, a teenager putting on a pair of jeans to spite his parents. The jeans arent the actual issue here, its the rebellion. Please learn to seperate the two.

    #665026

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    SJSinNYC:

    Well said. We do for G-d, not for what others think. Then again, in Flatbush they may be worried for shidduch purposes….

    #665027

    flatbush27
    Member

    “I am not going to dress for your prejudices and ill concieved notions, when they arent against halacha”

    i never said you did. but just realize people judge people on how they dress. i try not to but the facts are people do so if you care then dress how you want to be looked upon or do what you want to. i couldnt care less.

    “Why should my friend care what random people in Monsey think? Is he rebelling against society? NO. Is he doing anything wrong? NO”

    i never said anything is wrong with that mentality or your friend. if someone wants to walk around dressed as a sailor and really hes a lawyer, and then people think hes a sailor obviously then whoopdidoo.

    #665028

    flatbush27
    Member

    sjs: i never said your friend is in the wrong. but i think most people would think something negative if they saw a choshuv talmid chochom wearing jeans. i never said these people are right for thinking that way but fact is they do. if your friend doesnt care what people think of him so be it. but a bachur who never wears jeans but doesnt see anything wrong with them might still not wear them because people might categorize him

    gavra: and in monsey, lakewood, baltimore etc people arent worried about shidduchim? a lakewood guy learning in bmg will dress like a yeshiva bachur in public and if he doesnt people will talk and it may affect his shidduchim

    #665029

    flatbush27
    Member

    i thought my first post wasnt posted by mistake so i posted the second one if your wondering about the repetitiveness

    #665030

    oomis
    Participant

    “and if he doesnt people will talk and it may affect his shidduchim”

    THAT is the aveira, that people are talking loshon hara, rechilus, hotzaas shem ra, and those aveiras mamesh in the Torah, which says nothing whatsoever about jeans.

    #665031

    flatbush27
    Member

    oomis: your right. i never said those people are right for thinking bad about him and talking bad about somebody who dresses in a certain way. they are certainly wrong.

    #665032

    an open book
    Participant

    So what you are saying is that I have to dress to your perceptions? Sorry, thats not happening. I dress according to halacha and then according to the situation I am in. I am not going to dress for your prejudices and ill concieved notions, when they arent against halacha. It might be time to be introspective and say “Why am I judging a person like this? What middah do I have to change, rather than trying to get them to change something that isnt against halacha.”

    SJSinNYC: its not even that evryone who sees s/o wearing a certain thing (like jeans) will think that they are bad or s/t like that. but they will associate the person w/ anyone else they see who looks like that/wears that. so u r connecting urself 2 those type of ppl. if u dont care, go ahead, its not a PROBLEM. just some ppl arent aware that what they wear associates them w/ anyone else like that, and dont realize what impression they are giving.

    well, thats what i think.

    #665033

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    flatbush27:

    B”H I don’t live in any of those places, and live somewhere where you don’t have to answer one of these “shidduch questionnaires”. If you want to wear jeans, you will still find a shidduch (at least here).

    I also believe we talk about other people less than “in town”.

    #665034

    flatbush27
    Member

    “I also believe we talk about other people less than “in town”.

    you just talked about other people!!!! hypocrit!!!!!

    #665035

    Will Hill
    Participant

    I grada agree with flatbush27. I noticed some out-of-towners have a inferiority complex that they let loose by criticizing in-towners, especially Frum New Yorkers. i.e “they’re too frum”, “they’re not nice” etc.

    And it usually is comically hypocritical.

    #665036

    Josh31
    Participant

    New York City is a very fashion aware place.

    To survive in NYC you have to be aware how you are dressed regardless of your religious affiliation.

    “Dress for Success” was published in New York City.

    #665038

    kiruvwife
    Member

    In Town—is this a universal understanding that In Town means NY and out of town means everywhere else in the world? If so, if someone lives in Los Angeles and they are going to NY for a chasuna, and someone asks where they’re going they’re supposed to say “I’m flying to a chasuna In Town? Just curious.

    Not sure how to re-route this to jeans.

    #665039

    flatbush27
    Member

    no kiruvwife. if an out-of-towner” is leaving la to ny they say im going to ny. if they do say i’m flying to “in-town” then they are really an out-of-town harry ;)jk

    #665040

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    I think you are being unfair to GAW. He has not been hypocritical while conversing in the coffeeroom so far. Try to understand his comment, rather than call him a hypocrite. Remember, he didnt say they DONT talk about others, just less.

    #665041

    flatbush27
    Member

    i dont think so SJS. i think WillHill really said it right. and i think it was implied that what GAW said here was hypcritical not earlier in other threads. and if you read what she wrote i think it is hypocritical.

    #665042

    an open book
    Participant

    i dont think gavra_at_work is contradicting her?(g_a_w’s a she? interesting that i nvr thought abt this b4) self in this case, since it was only said that they talk less, not theyre perfect or always nicer. i still see your point though

    #665043

    flatbush27
    Member

    whats the difference between saying someone or a community is not nice, not perfect, stuck up, annoying or talks about people? NOTHING!!! they are all bad attributes!! I cannot believe some people here fail to recognize the fact that GAW’s statement was completely hypocritical.

    #665044

    ruvnee
    Member

    cantoresq wrote: “please explain how the uniform of many a yeshiva leit, consisting of a wrinkled white shirt, often unlaundered, a pair of trousers that have not seen an iron in months, and worn out unpolished loafers, mismatched with an ill fitting jacket and topped by a frayed worn hat, is mechubad”

    I think you are taking things a little to far here. Most mainstream yeshiva bochurim wear starched shirts, ironed pants, and well-fitting jackets. (I run the cleaners in a prominent yeshiva, and you’d be surprised how much clothing is cleaned every week.) Frayed worn hats are obsolete in the yeshiveshe velt, and considered harryish, mind you. Most bochurim, even those not “into” clothes dress mentchlich and bakovodik, and i don’t think they lose that when they grow into yungeleit with wives to look after their laundry. Nor have i seen it.

    Ask any bochur or yungerman. The majority of today’s bachurim would be mortified to be outfitted in your idea of their typical wardrobe.

    The fact that some are spazzed and do not realize that their shirt is stained and pants are wrinkled has little if anything to do with their lifesytle.

    #665046

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    flatbush27:

    Less is a matter of degree. Based on the statement that people in those areas talk (which is pure Lashon Hara), I was nichshal and answered based on that assumption.

    I should have said (and ask the mod to edit my original comment, or at least delete it):

    “Chas V’Shalom that people in the chashuv (out of town) areas of Lakewood, Monsey & Baltimore talk about other people just because they wear Jeans! I am not M’kabel and ask the Mod to edit that comment.”

    Unfortunately, the person who wrote that comment “got me”. Its one of the major chesronos of the coffee room that Lashon Hara sometimes slips through.

    Thank you for correcting me, although (for next time) you should be aware that people who are attacked personally are usually not as ready to recognize their mistake and would rather fight since they are personally offended.

    Will Hill: I can only suggest you (and I) get a map. Monsey, Baltimore & Lakewood are all OOT. Flatbush is a Safek. The only vadai is Boro Park.

    #665047

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Note on prior comment: lashon Hara/ Motsei Shem Ra, not getting into technical details.

    flatbush27:

    You know what the sad part is? I agree with you 100% that jeans are not the malbush of a dignified person. I just will not force my own chumros/gedarim on others, which is why I turn out more “left wing” when (I think) I’m more “right wing”.

    I once heard from a famous rav, a mechaber of many seforim and recognized thoughout Klall Yisroel on both sides of the aisle the following statement on Rosh Hashana:

    (may be quoting a little off, Bemechilas kevodo)

    “People like keeping chumros. If only people would keep Shulchan Aruch instead of Chumros, Klal Yisroel would be much better off and Moshiach would come. Just the four chalakim of Shulchan Aruch is hard enough”.

    I also think doing things just for the purpose of “shiduchim” is somewhat silly (as opposed to raising yourself), but others do disagree. Maybe I’ll start a new thread on that.

    #665048

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    whats the difference between saying someone or a community is not nice, not perfect, stuck up, annoying or talks about people? NOTHING!!! they are all bad attributes!! I cannot believe some people here fail to recognize the fact that GAW’s statement was completely hypocritical.

    First, GAW has shown himself to be a nice, caring person throughout his time here. You havent been here that long, so I am letting you know that. I think that alone gives him an extra moment of thought from posters to see if what he said is out of character or something.

    I personally agree with that statement though. In out of town communities, every Jew is important. So they may not dress/talk/think exactly like you, but they are there. People are appreciative of everyone.

    In NY, you can compartmentalize people so much because there are so many Jews. I’ve always heard that when times are bad, Jews are much better to each other. Its such a sad statement that has been proven time and time again throughout history (as a general rule, not necessarily for each person).

    I personally am thankful that I don’t care what others think of how I dress. As long as I am dressing tzanua, I know I am doing the right thing. I don’t care when people judge me based on that, because I recognize it as a flaw on THEIR part, not mine.

    #665049

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    SJSinNYC:

    Thank you for your kind words, but I still should not infer anything about ANY Jewish community or person that will be taken in a bad light.

    #665050

    noitallmr
    Participant

    There’s a major difference between always being very well dressed and being into clothes. A person should always be well dressed. It is a Kiddush Hashem. I personally pride myself in always being tip- top. But you get another guy whose majorly into his makes and will blow his wallet to buy himself some Gucci Tie or Armani Suit- these people are living in their Chitzonoyos and that is a bad thing.

    You see this contrast most by Bochrim and it’s a shame to see a Bochur majorly into his clothes always flicking dust off his jacket whilst davvening, straightening his hat which anyway took him half an hour in front of a mirror to get the exact right angle- (bit perched too one side!!!)

    😉

    I was once in Yeshiva and I got good eyes!!!

    #665051

    Will Hill
    Participant

    GAW, which “famous” rav purportedly said that? And is the quote you made precise? Because if you take out just one word (“instead”), it makes all the difference.

    #665052

    teen
    Member

    i no someone who is the head of a major company (worth millions of dollars) and he goes into meetings wearing jeans

    #665053

    flatbush27
    Member

    sjs: if you read by posts after the original “hypocrit” post, i said that i thought it was implied that the statement was hypocritical and not GAW as a person because i have no idea who she is. if that wasnt clear then now it should be.

    GAW:i apologize to you if you thought it was meant as a personal attack. I should have worded it differently the first time. also, i think monsey lakewood and flatbush (and the entire brooklyn) are definitely IN TOWN and i think most people will agree to that except maybe by lakewood. although baltimore is definitelty OOT.

    #665054

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Will Hill:

    Due to the location of the quote, I will have to decline.

    Have you got a map? Perhaps you can start a new thread.

    #665056

    flatbush27
    Member

    teen: goyim are no proof. you dont see choshuve rebbeim walking anywhere in jeans

    #665057

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    flatbush27:

    Please also be Chozer on your statement that people in those areas talk about other Yidden just because they wear jeans. There is no reason to say people in those areas are Over the Issur of Lashon Hara.

    As a Gavra, I am insulted. She? 🙂

    #665058

    flatbush27
    Member

    gaw: your right i am chozer that statement but only to a certain extent. when you are talking about it for strictly shidduch purposes i think there is no problem for asking does the guy wear jeans.

    sorry about the he/she issue

    #665059

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    flatbush27:

    I thought we were discussing family members (i.e. parents), not the man himself, of which the question is valid. Also “talk” can be misrepresented, “ask” would be better (as you point out)(and then we would not have had this whole misunderstanding!)

    I am glad we agree.

    #665060

    Jothar
    Member

    Will Hill, I do not know the spource of gavra_at_work’s quote.

    I do have a quote from Rav Chaim Shmuelevitz ZT”L, which was quoted in the Mishpacha article on his yartzeit.

    Mishpacha issue 239, page 27, courtesy of mishpacha.com:

    and one of his seatmates at the head table

    made an elaborate display of retaking

    maaser from the bread on the table. Reb

    Chaim was allergic to public displays of

    piety, especially when he felt that they

    subtly touched upon it.

    merits having a Rebbe; only then will he

    have a mesorah and be saved from all

    I spoke to one of my learned friends, who feels that jeans got associated with the hippie movement. Thus, jeans became the symbol of rebellion and prikas ol. This does NOT apply to jean skirts, as it’s not the material, it’s the jeans. Cotton pants never had that stigma, but different yeshivas have different rules on what qualifies as “Ben Torah” clothing. I’ll try speaking to a menahel. these guys get challenged on everything, and have ready answers for everything.

    #665061

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    This does NOT apply to jean skirts, as it’s not the material, it’s the jeans.

    Shouldnt that mean bell bottoms though? Its the style of hippie jeans…if the material is ok, regular jean pants should be too.

    #665062

    Jothar
    Member

    Jeans are viewed as a low-class beged of low-class people. “Hippies”isn’t completely literal. Same with camo pants.

    To be clear, there is no issur deoraysah here, unless you hold that jeans are a beged meyuchad for goyim.

    Again, this is pre-menahel hocking.

    #665064

    aaryd621
    Participant

    why are jeans considered dressing like the goyim? that is like saying every designer clothing or shoes are goyish. they are all made for the goyim and goyim wear them.

    #665065

    Joseph
    Participant

    Lo shinu es malbushayhen.

    #665066

    sammygol
    Member

    Jeans?

    Yilb’shee anuvim vayisbooyee

    #665067

    Jax
    Member

    aaryd621: welcome to the CR! now start from page 1 of this thread for more on jeans!

    #665068

    Be Happy
    Participant

    Jean skirts are also a big NoNo in this area.

    #665069

    Feif Un
    Participant

    aaryd621: there’s nothing wrong with wearing jeans. Some people just impose unnecessary chumros on people, because they don’t know any better.

    #665070

    sammygol
    Member

    Feif, jeans may help identify one as a working person, someone who uses his hands to make a living, chas veshulem.

    #665071

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Lo shinu es malbushayhen.

    So, I’m assuming that, for the same reason, you’re opposed to ties, right?

    The Wolf

    #665072

    Joseph
    Participant

    are you assuming that about socks as well?

    #665073

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    are you assuming that about socks as well?

    You tell me. You’re the one who said that jeans are forbidden because of Lo shinu es malbushayhen.

    So, would you say that ties are forbidden for the same reason? Why (or why not)?

    The Wolf

    #665074

    mepal
    Member

    You have to put the limits somewhere.

    #665075

    Ktzoys
    Member

    Raboysai, stop everything!!

    Please tell me I have the kovod to be the first one to point out that jeans WERE INVENTED by a fellow yid! Harav Levi Yitzchok Strauss, originally from Berditchov.

    Just for a change of perspective, google ‘Levi Strauss’ to read his fascinating story.

    #665076

    sammygol
    Member

    Incredible story, except that Berdichev is not in Bavaria. Like so many fascinating chasidishe ma’aselach, the place is wrong, the name is wrong, and he wasn’t gebentsched by some unknown holy rebbe to be “matzliach in dem hoizen gesheft”. Other than that, the story is quite boring.

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