Jew becoming a lawyer or judge -halachic problems ✡️⚖️

So instead of posting here, why don’t you go ask your Rav about it and see what he says? In the thread about the girl who wants the guy dating her to change his Rav, you wrote:

“Aseh Lecho Rav. You need one Rav who is your go-to for all life’s major questions. Do not deviate. And as your Rav what to do in this case.”

So where is your Rav? Wouldn’t this be a major question? Why not ask him?

Or, could it be that this user (who seems like Joseph) is really a troll?

First off, I’ve been an attorney for many years and I, like many of my law school friends, have never seen the inside of the court nor have we assisted anyone in litigating matters in front of court. There is a large world of law outside litigation. But aside from your flawed understanding of the legal world, you also have a flawed understanding of halacha. First off- Lifnei Iver only applies if that person you are helping would not be able to do the averiah without you (classic case being giving wine to a nazir who is on the other side of the river), and I can’t imagine a scenario where you are the only attorney this jew can be using. So the only issue here would be mesayea. If you look through the poskim, there are many many hetterim in various scenarios of misayea. It is clear that the rishonim and achronim were not very machmir on it. Rav Moshe, for example, based on a shach, says there is no misayea on a mumar. Others say there is no mesayea if you are getting financial gain. Bottom line- ask a Rav, but odds are he’ll tell you there’s nothing to worry about.

There are many forms of law, but the bottom line for most is that Dina d’Malchusah Dina, and a lawyer is subject to those same laws. As much of civil/tort law actually IS based in Torah ideology, I don’t see the problem that some do. And if there really is an issue (say with something that goes mamesh against halacha, i.e. gay marriage), then the lawyer needs to follow his conscience, if he cannot present an effective way of doing his job, and recuse himself (or whatever lawyers do when they cannot argue a certain point). JMO, and I am certain there are many who would disagree with me.

Lior, you are totally wrong.

1. There is always a problem if a Jew is involved in case due to a halacha that one needs to use a Beis Din. That’s the last thing most Jews want to do. One can avoid the matter by specializing an area where that isn’t an issue (administrative law including tax law, since the non-Jewish “king” is a party so Beis Din isn’t involved).

2. Convicting the innocent and aquitting the guilty is a moral issue, but as long as you follow the rules of legal ethics, probably okay.

3. There are halachos about oppressing the poor, but as long as you don’t want get rich, that won’t be a problem.

Lior,To be or not to be, both of you are wrong.

To be or not to be, look in the talmud and you will see what I see.

Lior, you too follow my advice.

To be or not to be, I did.

Lior, u have a fault option.

“is there a issue of mesira when it comes to being a prosecuting attorney? “

No. Because we are in galut and can no longer enforce criminal penalties against other Jews within our own courts, we need to let the secular courts deal with the murderers, rapists, thieves, and swindlers in our midst. In some cases it is a matter of pikuach nefesh!

The only reservation that I’ve heard from any rabbi on this is that the death penalty standards in the US are so far below what is required by Chazal and Rambam for gentile courts that it is not permitted for a Jew to have anything to do with a death penalty case here in the US.

Ender, u are wrong.

The first thing we do, let’s kill all the lawyers.

-William Shakespeare

One can always be a lawyer and also avoid halachic issues, but as is often the case in many professions, respecting halacha will come with a price. Some types of legal work are clearly against halacha (e.g. assisting someone in a divorce in extorting money from the ex-spouse by refusing to give a “get” as ordered by Beis Din). Others are murky (convicting the innocent and acquitting the guilty in criminal cases). — The same is true in other professions. Just because you are a doctor doesn’t mean you have to perform (“elective”) abortions. Just because you work in the corporate world doesn’t mean you have to be an insider trader. Just because you are a professional athlete doesn’t mean you have to take prohibitted drugs. Just because you run a kosher restaurant doesn’t mean you have to compromise on kashruth. However in general, it is more profitable to be cheat than be honest – in any profession.

If you are entering law since the subject is interesting, you can find honest work and a respectable living. If you are entering law since you think it is an easy way to get rich, you will be miserable and be sorely tempted to cheat.

In a real bais din there aren’t lawyers. It’s not the Torah way. Maybe you could become a dayan or a toain.

ctlawyer? i thought for sure you would contribute to this discussion. where are you?

Dor, why do you think that the world is black and white? Guilty and innocent can have many shades of gray. To my (non-professional so CTL can correct me if I am wrong) knowledge it is a breach of legal ethics to plead “not guilty” for a client one knows is completely guilty or to prosecute someone one knows is completely not guilty. However, often there are mitigating and/or aggravating circumstances.

JJ, what is a “real” bet din? Toanim rabbani’im have been around for almost 2,000 years. If you are interested in how this developed there is an article in Techumin on this. Ido not remember which volume so you will simply have to do so work yourself. Here in Israel they even have their own professional organization.

CTL,
1. Yasher koach on your attainments regarding gittin.
2. L’chatchils wills must be written in a certain manner to have halachic validity. There is an organization called “Bais HaVaad Institute of Talmudic Law” which has an e-booklet on the subject. They also give CLE courses (albeit in Brooklyn). suing a jew in secular court.
3. You are correct that non-observant Jews do not care about the prohibition but they do care about time and money. If the local bet din is professional and arrives at a decision in a much shorter time and at much less cost a non-observant Jew might be willing. Here in Israel the Eretz Hemdah-Gazit network has earned such a good reputation that even non-observant judges refer cases for arbitration (they are very anxious to do this as their caseloads are impossibly heavy).

@Avi
A lawyers job is to advocate for the interests of the client to the best of the lawyer’s ability. It is NOT against the Code of Ethics top enter a not-guilty plea for a client the lawyer “knows’ to be guilty. The attorney cannot allow that client to take the stand and testify falsely. If the client insists on taking the stand, the lawyer is obligated to meet with the judge and prosecutor in chambers and say that he is opposed to the client testifying and expects it will not be truthful.
Because the standard of criminal doubt is beyond a reasonable doubt, a lawyer with a ‘guilty’ client who pleads not guilty may present alternative theories of the crime which raise doubt.

Here in OOT America a Beis Din usually has to be brought in from the big city at a great expense and non-frum people are not interested. Unlike in Israel, judge here refer to secular mediation venues.

@Gadolhadorah

90% of civil disputes are resolved without a trial. This includes arbitration. Most Americans don’t realize how often they waive their right to a trial and have agreed to binding arbitration with banks, retailers, etc. Read your credit card agreements and you will find you can’t go to court. Most people agree to terms of use on the internet without ever reading the terms.
Many of the 10% that go to trial are resolved before a verdict is rendered.

Most attorneys never litigate a case. In the British legal system there are Solicitors who do the bulk of legal work and Barristers who only appear in court hired by the solicitors.

CTL, thank you for the correction. However, what if the client admits to his attorney that he committed the crime? May the attorney plead “not guilty” without a qualifier (e.g. “temporary insanity”)? Is thre an ethical requirement to withdraw from the case without explanation (I have read of this being done).

JJ, then what does a toen do? Bring the dayanim coffee?

@AviK
One of the first things law students are taught in their first Criminal law class is don’t ask your client of he did the act for which he/she is charged.

Again, I don’t practice criminal law, but I do teach as an adjunct professor at a law school and have taught Legal Ethics/Professional Responsibility.

If your client admits to having committed the act with which he/she is charged. The lawyer is required to enter a non-guilty plea if that is the wish of the client.
This plea is often entered at the arraignment and/or bail hearing. It is useful in negotiating a plea bargain with the prosecutor. The client may never go to trial to decide guilt, only before the judge for the acceptance of the plea bargain and for sentencing.
If the client goes to trial for the crime charged, the lawyer must defend the client to the best of his ability. This is usually done by presenting alternative theories of the crime: who else, had motive, opportunity, access, etc. This is not the lawyer making a statement that the client is not guilty, but presenting scenarios that could raise doubt in the eyes of the trier of fact (judge and/or jury). What the lawyer may not do is put the client ion the stand if he knows the client will be lying. I have discussed this in an earlier reply.

Example> my client John Doe is arrested and charged with shoplifting under $200 worth of merchandise. This would be a misdemeanor charge of larceny in the sixth degree in CT. Client tells me he took the goods from the store without paying. I go with client to arraignment, enter the plea of not guilty and he is released on a promise to appear. If he entered a plea of guilty, he would immediately be taken into custody and could be held in jail for up to two business days until he went before a judge for sentencing. He would then on a first offence be offered accelerated rehabilitation. Make restitution, stay clean for a year, pay court costs and all records would be wiped out in one year. If it was a 2nd or 3rd offense, then he’d probably get ordered to pay restitution, a fine, 90 day sentence, suspended and probation for a year.

If he pleads not guilty and has no appreciable record, the prosecuting attorney will want to clear the workload and will offer a small fine, no jail time or probation. No need to be held in jail awaiting a trial. If no previous record, accelerated rehabilitation will be offered. In both these cases with no trial, the client will not be made to pay court costs.

Felonies are different, but pleading your client not guilty may allow him to be out on bail while awaiting trial. A guilty plea usually means instant incarceration

Avik – CT could give you a better answer. But as he already explained a lawyer is an advocate. They often give ideas of what to say. They may not directly tell you to lie but they may day if you say xyz you will lose the case (ie leave that out). They could also bring ideas like if you say ABC we can get this much money. They also may know the judges and what kind of arguments work better on them and which not as well. So it’s very different. Lawyers may also help you deal with legal loop holes etc. They may give you idea of other things you could push for that you never thought of or even intended to try and get.

Avik – another great example of the different is what CT said above. The lawyer will (perhaps in a round about way) tell their client to plead not guilty aka lie. That is the “ethical” thing of a lawyer to do.