August 2, 2023 11:21 am at 11:21 am #2213010hujuParticipant
I think there is a belief among some gentiles that “Jewish person” is the polite way to refer to a Jew. I personally prefer “”Jew.”
1. Do any of you Jews agree with me? Any of you disagree? And in either case, please explain why.August 2, 2023 12:19 pm at 12:19 pm #2213023torahlifeParticipant
Dunno but “you Jews” is certainly disrespectful.August 2, 2023 12:19 pm at 12:19 pm #2213022GadolhadorahParticipant
Many gentiles are worried that just calling someone a “Jew” these days, has sadly taken on accusatory, pejorative, anti-semitic connoations and thus feel the Jewish Person reference is more socially correct. Clearly, its a semantic distinction w/o a difference. I’m agnostic and just allow the individual to use whatever terminology they are more comfortable with. I recall my daughter at one point had a T-shirt with a “Proud Jew” logo after some local anti-semitic incident years ago….”Proud Jewish Person” sounds just a bit too woke.August 2, 2023 12:53 pm at 12:53 pm #2213030
I don;t feel strongly either way
but the concern of those gentiles makes sense
Unfortunately Jew has taken on some negative meanings.
There have been a couple such stories involving Google search over the years
for example in Dec 2022 the first hit on Google for “Jew” was the definition: “”Bargain with someone in a miserly or petty way.”
this was the first result
A while ago the leading results included antisemitic websites such as Jew Watch.
At the time it was noted that “Jewish” did not result in the same offensive results
As a result of thsi “defitnion of Jew and as a result of Antisemites choosing the term Jew as the subject of their hate (often with a snarl) “polite” Goyim have shifted towards using Jewish PErson.August 2, 2023 12:53 pm at 12:53 pm #2213029nishtdayngesheftParticipant
And here I thought you were going differentiate between being a Jew and actually acting Jewish.August 2, 2023 1:48 pm at 1:48 pm #2213034
Since people hate Jews, the word Jew is often used in a derogatory way. Then people start associating Jew with derogatory things.
[search wikipedia: “Jew (word)”]
This happens with names of other targeted minorities which are considered respectful at one point, but then become seen as derogatory.
Similar to the word shvartze which is just Yiddish for black, but many people consider offensive because they might have heard it in an offensive context and assumed that it was derogatory.August 2, 2023 2:04 pm at 2:04 pm #2213059Avram in MDParticipant
“Jew” is a noun. “Jewish” is an adjective. When “Jew” is used as an adjective or occasionally a verb, it is almost always meant as a negative epithet. Therefore:
How many Jews live in this town? Not offensive sounding.
That new place is a Jew bakery. Offensive sounding.
Other than that, whether it sounds offensive or not depends on the context.August 2, 2023 2:37 pm at 2:37 pm #2213063provaxxParticipant
George Santos is Jew”ish” but not a JewAugust 2, 2023 5:09 pm at 5:09 pm #2213110SQUARE_ROOTParticipant
George Santos is *** NOT *** Jew”ish” and *** NOT *** a Jew!August 3, 2023 8:44 am at 8:44 am #2213248hujuParticipant
Some comments state or simply that”Jew” has only recently taken on a negative meaning. That’s a hoot. “Jew” has been pejorative among gentiles since we left HarSinai.August 3, 2023 3:59 pm at 3:59 pm #2213375SchnitzelBigotParticipant
I would also add that the word Jew has a particular offensive history because of the way Hitler and other anti-Semites used the singular word Jew, for example, “the Jew controls the world”August 3, 2023 4:34 pm at 4:34 pm #2213380
no the comments state that “Jew” has taken on a negative meaning that “Jewish” has not.
Would you agree that when used as an attributive form of a noun * as in “Jew Lawyer” or “jew bakery” in Avira’s example it is probably being used pejoratively?
to play it safe some use “Jewish” all the time, since it doesnt have that same connotation Jewish Lawyer, Jewish Bakery
(note this is not inherently grammatically incorrect, nouns can be used to modify other nouns eg business meeting, research paper you don’t NEED to use an adjective)August 3, 2023 7:00 pm at 7:00 pm #2213412Avram in MDParticipant
“Would you agree that when used as an attributive form of a noun * as in “Jew Lawyer” or “jew bakery” in Avira’s example”
Hmm, have AviraDeArah and I ever been seen in the same room at the same time?August 3, 2023 7:15 pm at 7:15 pm #2213419
huju > “Jew” has been pejorative among gentiles since we left HarSinai.
it is somewhat cultural. For example, Zhid (Yid) in Polish and Lithuanian is not pejorative per se (although some might use it), but it is in Russian.August 3, 2023 10:22 pm at 10:22 pm #2213430
Sorry about that Avram not AviraAugust 6, 2023 2:11 am at 2:11 am #2213668Avi KParticipant
At one time, Jew” was considered pejorative. The polite words were “Hebrew” and “Israelite”. I guess that going back to the latter is not politically correct in some circles.August 6, 2023 9:23 am at 9:23 am #2213742
Hulu, technically speaking, “Jew” only goes back as far as toeards the end of the first Temple, not Har Sinai.August 6, 2023 3:21 pm at 3:21 pm #2213817
Avraham was indeed “Ivri”, Hebrew. Mordechai seems to be the first person to be called “Yehudi” and yamini at the same time, that is yehudi being used as a “Jew”, not as a tribe. Are there earlier references during 1st BM?August 6, 2023 5:07 pm at 5:07 pm #2213848
Mordechai was one of the first referencesAugust 6, 2023 9:24 pm at 9:24 pm #2213873
The Gemara says that the title “Yehudi” went to anyone who was kofer in avoda zarah (like Mordechai) which could explain (at least spirituallly/subconsciously) why goyim consider the term pejorative. We, however, should be proud of it.August 8, 2023 1:06 am at 1:06 am #2214285
Menachem, this Gemora does not explain when Yehudi started to be used like that. Avraham clearly was not a Yehudi :).
Turns out there are pre-Ester references: references in Yermiyahu sound like referring to the tribe. but Zacharia 8:23 seem to refer to Yehudi in a religious sense in the context of nations coming to learn and this is how Gemora Shabbos 32 seems to understand it.August 8, 2023 7:51 am at 7:51 am #2214309
>>>Avraham clearly was not a Yehudi
True. Though it’s interesting that the term Ivri (which Avraham was called) connotes a similar idea, that Avraham was on one side while the entire world was on the opposite side.August 8, 2023 7:52 am at 7:52 am #2214322
Sometimes a tree is just a tree. Yehudi simply referred to someone from the Kingdom of Judah. In English the person was called a Judahite. There were no mystical attachments.August 8, 2023 9:22 am at 9:22 am #2214353
Judean ( Yehudi ) did not equate to being from the tribe of Yehudah. First, the tribe of Benjamin was part of the Judean Kingdom and many Israelites fled south into Judea after the destruction of Israel by SenncheribAugust 8, 2023 9:28 am at 9:28 am #2214368
Menachem, he was called Ivri because he had to cross “over” rivers to get to Israe( Canaan ). Again, nothing mysticalAugust 8, 2023 10:40 am at 10:40 am #2214393
What’s interesting is that the terms Jew, Jewish, and Judaism all derive from a Greek translation of Yehudi in the 3rd Century BCE. Biblical Hebrew doesn’t have a J sound but the Greek Y sound was often pronounced as a J sound. It was that Greek translation that carried forward and led to the term JewAugust 8, 2023 10:51 am at 10:51 am #2214405
“There were no mystical attachments.”
Did you experience it? Are you claiming to have been there?
What do you think mysticism is?August 8, 2023 11:20 am at 11:20 am #2214440
Anonymous, it’s always good to learn something new:
>>>Yehudi simply referred to someone from the Kingdom of Judah. In English the person was called a Judahite. There were no mystical attachments.
רבי יוחנן אמר: לעולם [מרדכי] מבנימן קאתי, ואמאי קרי ליה ‘יהודי’? – על שום שכפר בעבודה זרה, שכל הכופר בעבודה זרה נקרא ‘יהודי’
>>>Menachem, he was called Ivri because he had to cross “over” rivers to get to Israe( Canaan ). Again, nothing mystical
ויגד לאברם העברי, רבי יהודה ורבי נחמיה ורבנן, רבי יהודה אומר כל העולם כלו מעבר אחד והוא מעבר אחד [כי כל בני תבל לא ידעו אז את ה’ כי עבדו אלילים רק אברהם הכיר את בוראו והוא לבדו היה לעבר אחד בעולם לעבוד את ה’. וכל בני תבל לצד חוץ -עץ יוסף]. רבי נחמיה אמר שהוא מבני בניו של עבר. ורבנן אמרי שהוא מעבר הנהרAugust 8, 2023 12:00 pm at 12:00 pm #2214449
Nomesorah, mysticism doesn’t change the pshat of the terms derivation and had nothing to do with the origin of “Jew”August 8, 2023 1:09 pm at 1:09 pm #2214473☕️coffee addictParticipant
I know that Alexa doesn’t use the word “yid” because it’s derogatory but I know a lot of people who want to be referred to as one
Benny Friedman for example 😃August 8, 2023 4:20 pm at 4:20 pm #2214554
Yes, mysticism doesn’t change the pshat of anything. That doesn’t refute the mystical experience in the least.August 8, 2023 8:02 pm at 8:02 pm #2214605
So, I’m curious. What was the mystical experience of the Greek translation of Judea that led the future formulation of the word Jew?August 10, 2023 12:16 pm at 12:16 pm #2214968
The question is what is the experience of the word right now. How it came to be has little impact on mysticism.
And anyways, Menachem Shmei gave you sources.August 10, 2023 8:52 pm at 8:52 pm #2215140
I totally agree with you. The source is not mystical. Deriving mysticism today is not a problemAugust 11, 2023 8:30 am at 8:30 am #2215207E120Participant
I had a teacher in a secular education setting who told my class that “Jew” is derogatory and it’s polite to use “Jewish person” to refer to Jews. I found this odd. One refers to Christians and Muslims, rather than “Christian people” or “Muslim people”. It seems more disrespectful to me to make Jews the exception, where the grammatically correct title of an adherent of Judaism (namely, “Jew”) is treated as an insult, than to just call us Jews.
Just for the sake of interest, this particular teacher was virulently anti-Israel and spent a great deal of time in a class that was not focused on the subject teaching about how evil Israel is. “Israel is evil” in a secular context is shorthand for “Jews who defend themselves are automatically unjustified and should rather let themselves be killed”, and “Jews have no right to be physically present in Israel” (because being in Israel requires defending oneself, and that is never justified). I always felt her insistence on the terminology “Jewish people” was a way of establishing herself as impeccably unprejudiced before indoctrinating everyone into her prejudice. “I can’t be an antisemite, look how careful I am to refer to Jewish people rather than Jews”.
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