April 19, 2018 11:41 am at 11:41 am #1508733
In the 21st century it seems a given not to advertize for example Whites Only or Gentiles Only.
Yet very often we see by us “Female Preferred” or even “we have many seminary girls” for a company job (?????)
or “young women preffered” (Discrimination regarding Gender AND age) It is HARD ENOUGH for Frum people to get a job when others may very likely NOT WANT people that need to leave early Every Friday and Erev Yom Tov tat in Jewish jobs so often we see “sorry We are Frum and we want to only work with (pretty) girls?” Some might say its because they want to PAY LESS (IS that also right ????- and maybe a male may be negotiable!)
BH Nowadays women are Doctors, lawyers, CPAs, secretaires, bookeepers, etc We NEED TO OPen Parnassah Opportunities FOR ALL. When people are already Job Age they can survive talking Business with other gender members. IS this Obvious?April 19, 2018 12:36 pm at 12:36 pm #1508860
you’ll find these in the Jewish papers and on line all the time 🙁April 19, 2018 12:37 pm at 12:37 pm #1508863
So you want the Beis Yaakov to be open to hire men Morahs for the elementary and high school. And frum hair dresser and sheitel machers to hire men. And yeshivos to hire women teachers for high school, not to mention women rebbeim for Beis Medrash.April 19, 2018 12:53 pm at 12:53 pm #1508877
Thats a very good question.
Obviously I was not talking of religous positions as morah or rebbe.April 19, 2018 1:09 pm at 1:09 pm #1508884
Hair dresser isn’t a religious position.April 19, 2018 2:30 pm at 2:30 pm #1508936
It requires Negiah so it cant be another gender – though a shaite macher that doesnt see married womens hair should be fine 🙂April 19, 2018 2:42 pm at 2:42 pm #1508940
And a female English teacher for a Yeshiva 12th grade or a male English teacher for a Beis Yaakov 12th grade?April 19, 2018 2:47 pm at 2:47 pm #1508943Shopping613 🌠Participant
A sheteil macher for a man?
You are kidding, right?April 19, 2018 2:48 pm at 2:48 pm #1508944catch yourselfParticipant
“It is HARD ENOUGH for Frum people to get a job when others may very likely NOT WANT people that need to leave early Every Friday and Erev Yom Tov”
This is certainly discriminatory (on the basis of religion), and if it can be proven that an applicant was rejected for that reason, that employer will have a big problem on his (or her) hands.
I would appreciate if one of the Lawyers in Residence here in the CR would inform us laypeople whether the ads to which the OP refers are illegal. Is there anything wrong with wanting to hire, say, only females to preserve the religious acceptability of a workplace environment?April 19, 2018 3:27 pm at 3:27 pm #1508954
A) Techincally when people interview in their MINDS they may be free to Discriminate and Not Hire. Regarding a Shomer Shabbos worker many other employers may feel if they can get someone there all the time as everyone else and not know Rosh Ahshana, Yom KIppur, Sukkos (5 days of yom tov), pesach (4 days of yom tov), shvuos (2 days) are automatically not available for work and the day before you need to leave early they may choose (for no Expressed reason) to Not Hire You .
B)I am Talking about non Jewish school teaching, non Negiah necessitating jobs. Jobs Yiddishe men need to support themselves and families!April 19, 2018 3:58 pm at 3:58 pm #1508987
They can’t hire men and women for the same jobs. Men and women who do the same work don’t get the same job title.April 19, 2018 5:53 pm at 5:53 pm #1509029Takes2-2tangoParticipant
Please explain why rabbeim in frum girls highschools are done all the time but a women teacher in a frum high school isnt done.April 19, 2018 6:45 pm at 6:45 pm #1509049
Because teenage boys are teenage boys.April 19, 2018 10:08 pm at 10:08 pm #1509094frumnotyeshivishParticipant
CY- it is a complicated question. I’m not an employment lawyer. Discrimination on the basis of gender and religion is unlawful under title vii, which applies to all employers of 15 or more people.
Note: failing to accommodate a religious need is not discrimination, and has separate rules regarding how hard it is for the employer to accommodate. Thus your post regarding erev shabbos is incorrect.
In my brief googling of the topic I did come across some interesting eeoc guidance re: when religious accommodation can cause gender discrimination, involving a Muslim who wouldn’t shake hands with women. See Nov. 20, 2009 eeoc letter via Google.April 19, 2018 10:09 pm at 10:09 pm #1509096Midwest2Participant
According to federal law, you can only discriminate in hiring if the requirement is a genuine issue. Jobs such as secretary, nurse or accountant can be done equally well by men and women, so specifying “female only” in the advertisement could get you in legal trouble. There are exceptions made for religious organizations for some requirements, such as having a man to teach gemara. For secular studies, I’m not sure what the law is. Since the job of secretary in a yeshiva could be performed by either a man or a woman, it would probably be illegal to specify a woman.
Some frum employers get around the law by advertising only in frum venues, or just using word of mouth. And I agree that it seems that some people hire girls and women precisely because they can pay them less – but that’s been a problem in the secular world too. Employment law is complicated, and needs a legal expert.April 20, 2018 8:03 am at 8:03 am #1509148Neville ChaimBerlinParticipant
Yeah, those ads in the frum classifieds read really weirdly sometimes like “new multi-young girl office!”
I don’t really see any big problem, it’s just weird. By the way, girls don’t get paid less; that’s just a liberal myth.April 20, 2018 3:41 pm at 3:41 pm #1509332
The liberal myth is that it occurs by the goyim.April 30, 2018 5:50 pm at 5:50 pm #1513625
Mr Chanberlain If indeed girls do not get paid less what is the Real Reason we so oftyen see it oppenly said GIRLS or FEMALES or even YOUNG ENERGETIC GIRL wanted.
If it is a female employer is she prejudice against frum men getting parnassah?
If its a male – the Hailig Yid jst wants a girl tp keep him company?April 30, 2018 6:23 pm at 6:23 pm #1513993
They want to avoid Yichud problems. It’s assur for a man and woman to work alone together. Hence the correctness in hiring only a specific gender,April 30, 2018 10:12 pm at 10:12 pm #1514040
And on the earlier discussion of shaitel macher…
Someone mentioned negia as an issue.
While I’m not encouraging males to enter the shaitel macher workforce, on a technical level why would negia be an issue? Women go to male doctors and dentists. And the basic heter is that they are concentrating on their work. So why would that heter not apply to a male shaitel macher?April 30, 2018 10:12 pm at 10:12 pm #1514039
“Because teenage boys are teenage boys.”
But might there be a difference between hiring a 25 yr old woman (bad idea) vs hiring a 65 yr old who’s old enough to be their grandmother (might be OK)April 30, 2018 10:13 pm at 10:13 pm #1514034
Joseph. A)Are there any other males at the job B) Are there several frum or otherwise women there C) What do YOU do if you are home and the cleaning lady is there and you are alone in the house (keep door unlocked?????????????????????) Is “Yichud” realy a common reason for blocking frum men from parnassah? (given A, B and C)April 30, 2018 10:13 pm at 10:13 pm #1514035
It’s only a yichud issue if it’s a small office with too few people.April 30, 2018 11:19 pm at 11:19 pm #1514070GadolhadorahParticipant
Surprisingly, there is less of this gender discrimination going on today then 10 years ago. More jewish employers and mosdos are looking for the best job candidate and have found ways to work around halachic concerns while still adhering to the advice of their rabbonim and poskim. There are more women teachers in yeshivot for classes that do not involve limudei kodesh.although we see fewer men teaching secular subjects in beis Yaakov and other girls’ schools. Private employers are using open floor plans to lessen problems with yichud and taking advantage of the increasing numbers of yungerleit who are pursuing secular studies and college degrees.May 1, 2018 1:05 am at 1:05 am #1514083
Hadorah: You’ve been drinking spiked Kool Aid. Yeshivos and mosdos have absolutely not increased women teachers in boys yeshivas; au contraire. Some of the few that had it years ago no longer do. And men have not been secular studies teachers in Beis Yaakovs and still aren’t.May 1, 2018 11:32 am at 11:32 am #1514337GadolhadorahParticipant
Joseph….you should try some of this special chinuch kool aid at the Kiddush Club next Shabbos…..according to various studies (both frum and non-frum) sources are finding more opportunities for women teachers and there ARE men teaching at beis yaakovs in smaller communities where the boys and girls’ schools share the same physical campus (even though the classes are strictly separated).
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