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Okay, so now that I’m back for the duration, I may as well start a useless thread. So here it is.
I was looking on the YWN main page at the Mailbag and there was a letter about copying music without paying. Setting aside that topic (I could talk about it all day, and did, actually, to try out for debate team), there was one comment on there that got a whole new train of thought chugging along.
rebmoish says:
January 16, 2014 at 10:06 am
Not really adressing the main issue of the article, I must say thet most of the so called jewish music has the same rocky beat as the goyish music. Adding jewish words does not make a song Jewish!
Which of course got me thinking (and responding), okay, then, what does? The comment would imply that the “rocky beat” makes it “not Jewish”- why?
I’m making this open-ended because honestly, I know this is not a new topic but I’m still curious what people have to say in general.
What do you think makes something Jewish or not Jewish musically?
What it is? It’s a topic that closes the thread. Watch…
I know what Jewish bread, Jewish cheese, Jewish cooking, and Jewish milk is. Although I’m not an expert in Shulchan Aruch, I can’t say I know what Jewich music is nor do I care (unless someone can come up a souce).
Of course there is acceptable and non-acceptable music but it’s not determined by Jewishness.
What is Jewish clothing?
Dash – love it!
How about instead of labeling it Jewish and not Jewish try labeling it neshama music and not neshama music, makes it a bit easier to figure out what belongs where. Or music that brings you closer to Hashem and makes you feel closer to Hashem vs music that doesn’t or chas veshalom takes you away.
I’m Jewish. Music I play is Jewish.
Dash: What is this Jewish cheese? What have I been missing?
*I NEED JEWISH CHEESE FOR MY LASAGNA*
I hope the mods allow this link through.
So, I do agree with this guy, like look at ___________ new album that just came out. All the tunes were computerized and rocky and just didn’t have a refined feel to it.
Yes fast songs CAN be refined!!!! Go to a wedding, the music there is fast and refined, not like rap songs and the such…EX. nanach style, or ___ style….
They can give inspiration to make a jewish song….
So what is a ggod jewish song????????
– Kosher lyrics, not just stam, something with no point, like about getting drunk or something. Lyrics that you can feel for and affect your avodas Hashem
– A lively or slow refined tune. Something that hits the neshoma by either making you cry or dance. Not rap, computerized songs, not songs that sound like they were made up at a Rodeo or something.
– A feeling, songs have feelings, no, not an angry feeling, whatever the composer was thinking of or expressing in his music outwardly or not can be seen. You just have to look.
Classical music is only inherently bad if the neshama of the composer was immoral. Otherwise it’s fine to listen to. Many of the songs by Jewish singers, however, have been copied, adapted from or completely ripped off non-Jewish pop songs, some of which are very low indeed. Unfortunately I do know the originals of some of these songs. Aside from having been copied from non-Jewish music, the act of copying the music itself is an aveira (stealing, since they have not asked the original singer’s permission) and does not show a good moral character on the part of these Jewish singers. Therefore, going by the same argument that some hold for classical music, this music would also be considered ‘not Jewish’.
Writersoul, you have really got me started on a pet peeve!
Layning is Jewish music.
Jewish music is the music that Jews like. Frum Jews have their own styles and preferences, and they tend to be influenced, often indirectly, by the local goyim (e.g. a hasidic nigun based on a 19th century waltz, which they probably heard even though it is unlikely any hasidim ever danced to a waltz).
Jewish music is music by Bob Dylan and Leonard Cohen of course.
(stealing, since they have not asked the original singer’s permission)
AFAIK, it’s legally considered a parody, and is permitted. They may owe a small amount of money to the copyright holder, but so few copies of these album are sold, that the amount is very small, and the copyright owners don’t really care. Even if they do, not paying them is still not as bad as stealing, which has a much harsher connotation.
Jewish music is music whose mother was Jewish.
You cannot call them parodies (unless it’s Gershon Veroba, whose parodic songs have a point to them) since a parody is making fun of something. These singers have heard a song, used the tune and put in their own words. It’s not necessarily gneivas mamon, it’s more like gneivas daas, since the original music was someone else’s idea.
And even if the copyright holders didn’t care, it does not say much for the moral standards of someone who is willing to pass off someone else’s music as his own.
How do you know permission was not secured?
dash if you agree that certain music is unacceptable, what are the guidelines?
and cant a reason for certain music being unacceptable be for jewish reasons? if i wasnt jewish id definitely listen to songs that were “non-acceptable”
After a certain amount of years after the composer had died it is not copywritted anymore. That’s what I was told…
I am not so sure that James Horner (titanic theme) or Howard Shore (lord of the rings) were ever asked permission. For those of you who know the latter, the second track from the first film is copied note for note as the introduction for ‘sameach’, albeit with a different tempo and the last bar changed to lead into the song.
there is something called a mechanical license which is relatively inexpensive. I am sure people use that. one site I saw charges $15 per song plus a 0.0175 royalty fee per copy. In the non-jewish world creating “covers” of songs is a big industry.
on another topic gezel hagoy has different halachos then gezel yisroel. probably not something to discuss on a publicly searchable forum.
I am not sure where this whole you need to be inspired from the music thing came from its a nice idea but not rooted in halacha as far as I know. if anyone here has a mareh makom for that would love to see it.
notasheep: “Parody” in music doesn’t mean making fun of. It means copying the song with different lyrics.
Shopping: That’s not true. Copyrights expire after a certain period of time, whether or not the holder is still alive.
Jbaldy: Wrong. Gezel Akum is the exact same as Gezel Yisrael. Also, the music being inspirational is one of the (weak) Heterim for listening to music altogether.
Music has to have meaning. Once you establish that, you can simply judge whether that meaning is appropriate.
First of all: How would one even know of the non-Jewish songs?! (please take that lightly. It was not meant to offend anyone.) The reason I’m asking is like this: I dont listen to non-Jewish music in my home and i dont hear it at relatives or friends either. When a new CD comes out (by a Jewish singer, obviously) that I think I will enjoy, I buy it and listen to it. I’m not familiar with what originated as a non-Jewish tune and what did not. I will not deny that I was hooked/moved to certain songs that I later found out had a tune that originated from a non-Jewish composer. For me, I’m still hooked/moved and I cannot see anything wrong with it because I dont know what the tune was originally written for! I hear it as a “lebedige” or “hartzige” tune!
I have heard operas that brought me closer to Hashem, I have heard so-called Jewish niggunim that had the opposite effect. Music is a very subjective thing, and what enhances one person’s spiritual emotions, may not have the same effect on someone else.
I love chazzanus. My dad O”H was a chazzan (among many other talents)and I grew up hearing it all the time, and have a great appreciation for its beauty. Nevertheless, only one of my children loves chazzanus, and he davens for the omud professionally for the Yomim Noraim. Not one of my other children particularly enjoys hearing this form of music, even to the point where they cannot be on the same floor of the house when he is practicing before Rosh Hashana. Zaydie is probably turning over in his grave at what I just wrote.
I think that music should be enjoyed (or not) on its own merits.
Music has little to do with religion.
“Parody” in music doesn’t mean making fun of. It means copying the song with different lyrics.
But in regards to copyright “Parody” is a general English term, not a musical term.
The heart of any parodist’s claim to quote from existing material is the use of some elements of a prior author’s composition to create a new one that, at least in part, comments on that author’s work.
theres a pamphlet “the torah is not hefker” that came out a while ago about this which brings rishonim and recent gedoylim. Be careful you might not like what you see (maizid shoygeg type). Also it seemed to be coming from a radical to me and im yeshivish-ish
I am not wrong. For example masig gvul does not apply which has a huge nafka mina in regards to intellectual property which is the question at hand. additionally prius chovos is different (unrelated to the question at hand). depending on whether it is deoraisa or derabanan there will be additional nafka minas. I guess I wasnt clear – I was referring to the subject of stealing which is referred to in laymans terms as “gezel”. I am not so sure that geneivas daas in that situation would be an issue either or that this specific situation would qualify as geneivas daas.
“Jewish music is music whose mother was Jewish.”
The music can also convert in front of a beit din of three, accepting all the mitzvot applicable to music, with immersion in a mikveh (hopefully the ink is water-resistant), and with a hatafat dam brit if the music is male.
miritchka, whether or not you know the original songs were non-Jewish, most of today’s pop music is written by people with exceedingly low moral standards. Simply putting Jewish words to these tunes does not make them any holier.
Seeing how much attention YWN gave to one “Kanye West” when he did Teshuva after saying Jews have all the “connections”,
Kanye West Admits Jew Comment Was An ‘Ignorant Compliment’ He Wants To Take Back
Is his music now “Jewish”? 🙂
Does doing a cover of “Genghis Khan” (as well as many others, see Wikipedia) make that singer’s music non-Jewish? How about Bob Dylan? The Beastie Bochrim? The Bach? (I challenge anyone here to say the Bach wasn’t Kosher) (as I am listening to Das Wohltemperierte Klavier). Louie Armstrong singing about Shadrach? Shackles (Praise You) by Mary Mary? Black Hattitude?
I have to agree with Oomis here. Whatever brings you closer to Hashem within the realm of Halacha is “Jewish”, no matter who sings it.
Writersoul, if the original song for the music was one full of profanity then it is inherently tamei. I don’t think it would be obvious to someone listening who has never heard the original but the fact remains that just listening to a tune that was written for impure lyrics, even if Jewish words have been put to it, will damage – whether the listener realises it or not. We once had a class in sem where our teacher (wife of a well-known rav) taught us that music goes into our souls, not just our ears. I agree with oomis: because those operas you talk about were written mostly by religious, G-d-fearing Christians who had a sense of morals (although not all of them did), whereas some Jewish music comes from contemporary non-Jewish music written by completely immoral people. And whether or not the words have been changed, the melody will still make it’s impression.
I have a challenge, for all those who know Phantom of the Opera: try to put Jewish words to Point of No Return, and see if it sounds any more kosher (have to confess that I do like POTO, though).
Rebyid
Music has a lot to do with religion. Think David Hamelech. Think nevuah. Think leviim in Beis hamikdash. Think the women at the yam suf. Music is meant to uplift you and help you transcend. I won’t go on a long drasha here.
Writersoul, my point with Phantom is that the melodies of many songs were written with the intent of the original words as well, so the music style reflects that, even if you don’t know the original lyrics. And because the music itself is infused with impurity, then is does have an impact, whether or not the listener realises it. It is a little complicated. Blanket statements can be made in some cases, for instance the whole genre of rock or rap music. Rock is associated with drug culture, among other things. Rap is also often associated with drug and gang culture. Is this the kind of music we want to be copying (even if the melody was not ‘borrowed’)?
A friend of mine quoted his rebbe by saying, “music that causes your backside to sway or swivel, is NOT jewish music.”
That being said, throughout time our music has influences from the ayno yehudi world. Kf you dont believe it. Tell me where your zmiros nigunim come from.
Throughout time people were more religious and had more morals as well. Today’s culture, especially the music scene, has sunk so low that any ‘Jewish’ music influenced by modern pop music cannot be called Jewish.
Can someone please tell me how to start a new topic? i would like to know if a according to halacha a married woman is allowed to have her own private bank account. Thanks.
big rebbes may have known which niggunim to take from goyim, and/or how
Writersoul: please don’t try to tell me that if a prominent rav took certain tunes and changed the words and sung it it would make the tune any holier. Maybe you really just don’t completely get what I am saying, that tuma is inherent in the music itself, and the words or singer can’t change that. As someone who really feels music and who understands just how deeply music can penetrate, I can honestly say that I know exactly what my sem teacher was talking about, and not just saying some chumra nonsense. And I have to say that the vast majority of modern Jewish music does not connect to me or resonate or make me feel anything. Music that makes me feel something special – now that is what I listen to.
In my opinion “jewish music” has to do with the content of the song. You could say that you are aloud to listen to any song ( even non jewish)as long as it is appropriate ( the topic and the voice) but you would surely come by a inappropriate song and “by mistake” listen to it And acually like it and then you would be hooked. thats why most people recommend only to listen to jewish music because then there is almost no chance that you would come upon a inappropriate song.
If you say that this day in age the jewish music is too rocky then suit yourself and dont listen to it. but dont go around and say that todays jewish music is not kosher. Because thats about the the music people like and these composers need to stay in buisness and instead criticizing all these artists and say thank you for making your music for us to enjoy.
Writersoul: there, you’ve said it yourself. The Jewish music that is composed with real feeling brings out real feeling in me. But there are some songwriters who will just take any words from tanach and put them to any style music cause they want to sell a good song. Don’t get me started on zochreini nah (the catchy, fast one, not Miami Boys’), but that is a case in point. You cannot call that song ‘Jewish’. What I was talking about was purposely copying a style of music because it’s fast/beaty/catchy etc, not composing original music that may sound like another style. When the melody fits the words and you know that some thought went into that, then that song can be called Jewish.
Mench, don’t you think the way some Jewish teenagers jump up and down at ‘Jewish’ music concerts because of the style of music is just wrong, and smacks of pop fanculture?
Notasheep: would you rather those kids jumping around at a non-Jewish concert?
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