September 17, 2019 10:35 am at 10:35 am #1787386chashParticipant
I am not talking about anti- semitism. Thats a topic that has many pundits. but very recently there have been at least two videos showing incidents where a jewish person was physically attacked, and the reaction in the comments was , to me, quite a disillusion.
I will focus mainly on the story of the jewish woman who was accosted in target , by a woman who felt that she (the jewish woman) had disrespected her daughter by allegedly reaching over her to remove something from the shelf, and not saying excuse me. the video starts with jewish woman saying “whats your name” and the black woman threatening to knock her phone to the ground and to knock her head off, and she then proceeds to slap/hit multiple times. From the reporting of ywn it seems that the woman was actually hit, not simply the phone, and so it seems on the camera though i’m no expert.
The comments exploded with much condemnation for the jewish woman, even though there were some supporters. lets break it down.
1) The Jewish woman is a baalas gaiva for not walking away, she should’ve just apologized and it would be the end.
2)she provoked the situation by recording it on her phone.
3)she didnt say excuse me so she’s wrong.
To these points i say. 1) being attacked and lambasted in public is painful, anyone in that position would feel the urge to defend their dignity and set the record straight. The way one can accomplish that is by recording on video the altercation to be able to demonstrate the ridiculousness of the others claims. We all know that cyber-bullying is terrible, and words can have a more devastating impact than physical harm. Being accused of wrongdoing when your innocent is just that, and any normal human being would want to prove their not guilty of such.
with that we can address point #1. No she isnt a baalas gaiva, she wasnt trying to humiliate or provoke anything, she was trying to defend her dignity that had been destroyed by that womans nuttiness.
Was that smart? no.
Was she right? how can we know what happened to know who was right?!
Did she have the right? of course, she trying to defend herself from emotional abuse from that other woman. (who BTW doesnt seem to agree that you should walk away from this type of situation either. )
2) She provoked the situation. Well see, a bully will always be provoked by a victim who defends themselves, and bullies generally dont see themselves as such, they generally perceive that they have a legitimate reason to do what their doing, yet a bully they remain. So again, did she provoke the situation? yes, the other woman felt provoked. Did she do anything that she didnt have a right to do? no, she was trying to bolster her case that she was unfairly attacked verbally, its a sad day when we blame a victim for standing up for themselve. was it smart? no, there are better ways to handle that. Is that our business? no, a community has the responsibility to defend a victim even if the victim could’ve responded better, so long as the victim doesnt turrn around and become an abuser.
3) she didnt say excuse me so she’s wrong. Um? how do you know? A friend of mine was waiting on line in walmart behind a couple (non-jewish, not that it makes a difference, but just so all of the idiots out there dont have fodder…), when the man started yelling “get away from my wife, why are you so close to my wife”. really awkward stuff as you can probably imagine, B”h the cashier was a sane person who stood up for my friend and put the guy in his place. Now was the guy nuts? I dont know, could be from his viewpoint it looked different, or he thought he saw something or who knows, point is not every time someone percieves a wrongdoing are they correct. And surely to then bully someone else emotionally and physically is uncalled for. So was the jewish woman wrong for not saying excuse me? how in the world can anyone not there (or even there) answer that question. And did that give the other woman a right to do what she did even if so? of course not, threatening harm is a crime. physical attack is a crime. Taking a video of someone harassing you isnt! That woman shouldve been arrested.September 17, 2019 9:19 pm at 9:19 pm #1787597☕️coffee addictParticipant
So she shouldn’t have said sorry because her ego felt hurt?September 17, 2019 9:21 pm at 9:21 pm #1787605batsevenParticipant
@ chash: Agreed! Couldn’t have said it better. I was quite baffled and saddened to read the comments blaming the Jewish woman. Yes, she could have responded better. Yes, I would have (I like to think) acted differently. But that she all of a sudden is the perpetrator? Come on!September 17, 2019 9:21 pm at 9:21 pm #1787608batsevenParticipant
@ chash: Agreed!!September 17, 2019 9:22 pm at 9:22 pm #1787609Sam KleinParticipant
Every physical human being is given from Hashem the gift of free-will. The choice to pick good or bad what they want to do and whatever a person chooses they are held responsible for it %100 in the olam haemes, versus nothing else in the world has the gift of free will “only man was given this gift”
The human psychological mind (yetzer tov/hara) tells a person what to choose to do something or not etc… This is what was going through the Jewish lady’s mind as she was being screamed at…. And she has the right to defend herself and MUST defend herself lest she C”V sit and do nothing and get injured.
The Mishna says no-one should talk until they are in that persons shoes/situation and what they went through before talking. Every human being has a different thinking psychological mind and each situation different people think of different things about the same situation. So let’s judge everyone favorably in life in all situations and hope we never fall into these dangerous situations.
May we all have a ksiva v’chasima tovah ahead of us
A psychologistSeptember 17, 2019 11:10 pm at 11:10 pm #1787622Grey matterParticipant
I agree with most of the previous postings. The assailant was certainly in the wrong and should be prosecuted. Her actions where unacceptable. We must stand behind the victim that was hit. That being said the way the lady with the camera handled it (although perhaps somewhat understandable in the circumstances) was beyond just not smart it was a tremendously bad idea.September 17, 2019 11:10 pm at 11:10 pm #1787621YidForYashrusParticipant
Who cares if she had a right to video,…………
Why not just apologize and avoid:
1. The whole situation.
2. Another anti-semite
If you thought that your kid had been disrespected by someone how happy would be?
Obviously the african americans woman reaction was not valid but on less of a level we can understandSeptember 18, 2019 2:02 am at 2:02 am #1787654chashParticipant
@yid for yashrus. you missed the point. when someone is attacked theres a natural feeling to defend oneself. its very strong and very painful and EXPECTED. so yes, it wouldve been smarter to apologize, but is that her duty? no. and anyone who thinks this is a boich sevara would do well to check the sefer hachinuch on the mitzva of ona’as dibbur, i believe its 338. where he relates that its natural for one to verbally defend themself and therefore it wouldnt be ona’ah to fight back. its also brought lehalach in Ch”m, i believe siman 421, 13.
and really? you can understand the black lady? what if the headline was “jewish woman hits black lady after black lady reaches over her (the jewish womans) daughters head to remove something from a shelf”? i mean, when did reaching over someones head become even remotely wrong? was she obstructing the girl s movements? did it endanger her in any way? my goodness!September 18, 2019 8:06 am at 8:06 am #1787683klugeryidParticipant
Thank you chash
Sad how so many look to denigrate fellow Jews because it makes them feel educated, enlightened, ……
As someone here posted, if that Jewish lady was your sister, would you be sticking up for her assailant?
I doubt it.
Well news flash
She is your sister!!September 18, 2019 8:08 am at 8:08 am #1787682David YParticipant
The hands are the hands of Esav but the voice is the voice of Ya’aqov.
Both women were involved in a fight using the weapons which they had available to them.
Provocation is a defence at law.
We should not set a stumbling block before the blind.September 18, 2019 1:13 pm at 1:13 pm #1787717jdf007Participant
“1) The Jewish woman is a baalas gaiva for not walking away, she should’ve just apologized and it would be the end.”
No it wouldn’t, your apology is never enough. And this ain’t new by even 3 generations.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.