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When a goy dies in the world, what does it mean to us? Are we supposed to/allowed to mourn the death of another human being, even if they are not Jewish??
Hashem told the malachim not to say Hallel when He drowned the Egyptians because “My handiwork is drowning”. Gentiles are also created in the image of G-d, even if they are not His children.
Mourning is primarily about acknowledging feelings of loss for someone. If you knew the goy personally, then you feel loss. There’s nothing wrong with that, and you should be in touch with your feelings. If you didn’t, then for a Jew of course one should try to realize a sense of loss, for haskafic reasons – i.e. the Jew had a unique purpose etc. For a goy, I’m sure one could engage in a lengthy debate about whether his existence is worthy to us on a hashkafic level etc., but Jothar makes a good point.
That’s a reason not to celebrate. It isn’t a reason to mourn.
That’s semantics. If you are fully aware and acknowledge that it is not a time to celebrate right now, by default you are allowing yourself to recognize a certain sense of sadness, which is one level of mourning.
Why wouldn’t a goy’s existence be worthy? Would Hashem create something with no purpose?
The point was he shouldn’t celebrate the death, not that he should mourn the death. That isn’t mere semantics.
OneOfMany –
There is what to debate about ????? ????? and ????? ?????, the question if Hashem actually cares about the particulars of a species or only about the generalities. The current trend of Jewish belief seems to be that with Jews Hashem is concerned with every individual, so we can say “each person has a specific value and purpose.” With a non-Jew, perhaps if it is a good person this is also true, but if not, we can sit here and argue for a long time as to whether or not his/her personal existence is meaningful.
Dr. Seuss –
It is semantics. Because as I tried to note, there isn’t really a difference.
We mourm the death of a Jew as one mourns for a family member. We are are on big family. L’havdil a goy is not family, hence we don’t mourn a goy’s death. Goyim have purpose in that they are here to serve the main servant of Hashem, the Yid.Just as any other briyah is here to serve the Jew.
They must have collective worth, though. And losing part of a whole impacts the whole.
I guess my point is that they are also created in G-d’s image, so it’s hard to say that they are meaningless.
But why does this have to be a question of cosmic worth? Why can’t we mourn because we are human beings with feelings (as yitayningwut said)?
I mean, if the goy and his death didn’t mean anything to you, then there’s no real reason to mourn (as opposed to the Jewish collective), but why would it “not be allowed” to mourn someone who died horribly or just stam was a decent person? How could it be ASSUR (as asked in the original post)?
Dr. Seuss: I agree. No one should celebrate another human being’s death (unless said person was a real menuval). And not celebrating isn’t NECESSARILY mourning. But can’t you mourn if you want to?
OneOfMany – One could argue that their collective worth is no more than the collective worth of oak trees. If one gets chopped down, big deal. Remember, many philosophers, Jewish and non-Jewish, were willing to entertain this idea even of Jewish individuals, although the mainstream always believed in ????? ????? for Jews. But yes, the idea of being created in God’s image does seem to set humans apart from other entities.
But human AREN’T trees. A group of goyim has a different nature of worth than a forest of trees, due to their G-dly image. Therefore the loss of one has a different significance, and could warrant a sense of loss.
The possession of tzelem Elokim and hashgacha klallis just can’t reconcile in my mind…
Parenthetically, which goyish philosophers discussed the worth of Jewish indiviuals (specifically)? This interests me.
This is an open form, anyone can come here and read threads, including non-Jews…Which I know for a fact some do….horrible thread to be allowed…MODS please do your Job and close this down.
OneOfMany – Sorry I was unclear, I didn’t mean they discussed Jewish individuals, I meant they discussed all human beings, and there may have been elements in the Jewish community who were willing to entirely concede to them, but the consensus amongst us has seems to have been that at least for Jews, there is ????? ?????.
And I do hear what you are saying about being created in God’s image. However you really have to define what exactly that means, because if it is indeed something so uniquely special in each individual then why would there be no hashgacha on it?
mike: how do you know for a fact some do?
mikehall12382: That is SO true. I always wonder about “Halacha yaduah sh’eisav sonai l’yaakov, since there is every reason for it to be self-inflicted.
mikehall12382-
If you happen to be referring to my posts, keep an open mind.
yitayningwut: What logical reason could goyish philosophers have for supporting that consensus?
According to the Nefesh Hachaim (correct me if my interpretation is faulty), tzelem Elokim is defined thus: as Hashem’s name Elokim implies His omnipotent ability, as an “image of Elokim,” humans posses some special (though lesser) ability (i.e. koach habechirah)to affect the world with their actions. This ability is special because Hashem Himself promises not to abridge it.
Hmmm…this begs the question: what exactly is the difference between tzelem Elokim and chelek Elokai mima’al?
Anyway, I have yet to find an interpretation of hashgacha klallis that shtims with this Nefesh Hachaim.
mike: how do you know for a fact some do?
I dont speak for Mike, but I have seen things posted here elsewhere and this site appears very high in google search results
Another question: isn’t the axiom “Eisav sonai l’yaakov” an abridgement of bechirah? Wouldn’t having a pre-programmed nature make goyim by definition animals (which I DO NOT agree with, mikehall12382)?
“mike: how do you know for a fact some do?”
Becasue there is a poster who is a Bnai Noah and Imagine there are many people who read but don’t post…Im sure if the MODS were to look at some of our IP addresses they will be surprised that they are from places that have little to no Jews…Plus this site does appear on goolge searches…
zsdad: where else did you see things from here reposted?
OneOfMany –
What logical reason could goyish philosophers have for supporting that consensus?
They don’t of course. They didn’t believe in ????? ????? at all.
As for your quote from NH, when it comes down to it you are saying that there is nothing inherently Godly within every human being, only that humans have an attribute that God also has. Which can answer your “cheilek Eloka” question, though I’m not altogether sure what that means.
The axiom ??? ???? ????? is not to say that this is how they are programmed. It is an after-the-fact acknowledgement of the situation. In fact Rashi (Bereishis 33:4) says it isn’t always true. Non-Jews have freewill too. If they didn’t, then there would be no reason for righteous non-Jews to have a share in the World-to-Come, which they do.
yitayningwut:
Oh. I just reread your previous posts. I get it now. That’s interesting…why and how would Jewish philosophers concede to the idea of no hashgacha pratis whatsoever? Isn’t that the theory of kadmus haolam?
…doesn’t saying that humans have an intrinsic G-dly characteristic make them inherently G-dly? But I think THAT is a question of semantics…regardless, there is SOMETHING there that we ALL have, and that deserves respect. And some apportionment of value, I think.
To clarify: I always thought that cheilek elokai mima’al is what only Jews have, while goyim were given a ruach mimalilah. Maybe they are different distinctions in tzelem Elokim? I don’t have any sources for these assertions, though…
And regarding “Eisav sonai l’yaakov”: then WHY do so many people (including some people on this forum, apparently) use this as an excuse to regard goyim collectively with a general distrust and contempt? It’s so antithetical to what we believe in…
zsdad: where else did you see things from here reposted?
A famous blog written by an ex-chabbadnick
OneOfMany-
It does go hand in hand with kadmus, and that is a concept which certain minority elements did try to fit into the Torah – I believe Ralbag was one of them. But obviously the consensus is not that way, and such a view is regarded by the mainstream as kefirah.
regardless, there is SOMETHING there that we ALL have, and that deserves respect.
Respect, yes, but why to be sad when it is lost? I respect my opponents too, that doesn’t mean I mourn their loss (I am not saying non-Jews are our opponents, I am making a conceptual comparison).
To clarify: I always thought
I’m not that into Kabbala, and the terms you are using and the distinctions between them are kabbalistic ideas. So I can’t really help you there.
WHY do so many people (including some people on this forum, apparently) use this as an excuse to regard goyim collectively with a general distrust and contempt?
You are absolutely right.
The distrust comes from fear as a result of thousands of years of persecutions. Contempt for non-Jews collectively has no excuse; maybe it’s a defense mechanism. Either way, “eisav sonei l’yaakov” is most definitely not absolute.
yitayningwut:
Thanks for your input. Good to know that I’m not the only Jew who isn’t insanely prejudiced.
I also just realized that due to deleted posts, my opening question now makes no sense. Yoish.
OneOfMany –
Sure. And you certainly aren’t the only one.
Shelo Asani Goy is a Torah sanctioned prejudice.
No it isn’t. It’s being thankful that we have more mitzvos. The same as shelo asani isha and shelo asani eved.
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