January 24, 2017 3:26 pm at 3:26 pm #619082JosephParticipant
Other than the consideration as to which location promotes overall greater safety and preservation of life. No other consideration ought to matter as to where the American embassy in Israel is situated.
The location is merely symbolic. Jews should not be supporting the State of Israel or its interests, other than to the extent they promote safety. Moving the embassy to Jerusalem will not save any lives. Au contraire, it very well may be used as a pretext to violence against Jews.January 24, 2017 4:15 pm at 4:15 pm #1213702
Symbolism is also very important. We are sick of being told what to do in our capital as if it is not ours.
Jews should support the State of Israel (and live in it) as it is the beginning o our redemption and the world’d redemption. As for violence, over eighty years agothe Arabs threatened violence if we did not give them the Kotel. Rav Kook and Rav Sonnenfeld stood firm against the British ym”sand weak-kneed Jews and there was no violence over it. Moshe Sharett warned that there would be violence we would be thrown out of the UN if we declared Yerushalayim to be our capital. BG said”OOM shmoom” (OOM is the Hebrew acronym for the UN) declared it our capital and nothing happened.
Tell me, Joseph. Are you sorry in retrospect that Trump won? Look at the violence to which it led. In fact, why don’t you assimilate so as not to be subjected to violence?January 24, 2017 4:19 pm at 4:19 pm #1213703akupermaParticipant
By refusing to move the embassy to West Jerusalem (as defined by the 1949-1967 armistice lines), the US (and the world) are saying that anything beyond the 1947 partition plan, if that much, is NOT recognized as Israeli territory – giving the Arabs hopes that they can get a return to the 1947 boundaries, or the pre-1947 boundaries (Palestine in the whole of Eretz Yisrael, Israel as a figment of zionist dreams).
It is unlikely that any terrorist would decide to launch an attack that they would not have launched otherwise. It isn’t as if Islamic terrorists have been sitting around doing nothing the last 70 years.January 24, 2017 4:23 pm at 4:23 pm #1213704MammeleParticipant
I couldn’t agree with you more. The Zionists need Jerusalem as their capital to reinforce their ownership claims to Israel as a Jewish state like it once was.
Well guess what, we beg Hashem multiple times a day to bring Moshiach and rebuild Yerushalayim, and we don’t need Bibi’s help to accomplish this. So thanks but no thanks.
Yerushalayim will truly be ours when Hashem answers our Tfilos, embassy or not. May it be speedily in our days.January 24, 2017 5:09 pm at 5:09 pm #1213705
Most of the British were cold/cool but even handed and hardly antisemitic
There were, naturally, exceptions such as Harry Luke-whose family had shma”d zich
Dr. Wallach, righteous yekkish founder of Sha’arei Tzeddek Hospital had to hire a guard to avoid assassination for being too pro britishJanuary 24, 2017 5:19 pm at 5:19 pm #1213706takahmamashParticipant
Well guess what, we beg Hashem multiple times a day to bring Moshiach and rebuild Yerushalayim, and we don’t need Bibi’s help to accomplish this.
HKB”H works in ways we do not understand. How do you know Hashem isn’t working through PM Netanyahu to accomplish things He wants accomplished? The answer is, you don’t know, I don’t know, nobody knows.January 24, 2017 5:40 pm at 5:40 pm #1213707MammeleParticipant
Sorry but I disagree TM. Moshiach’s coming and filling the world with Hashem’s Glory – NOT BIBI’s or the Zionist’s – is what we’re davening for. The embassy in Jerusalem won’t bring us any closer to the Beis Hamikdosh. So even if one believes that the rebuilding of the land is the beginning of the Geula (which for the record I vehemently disagree with) to think the American embassy in Jerusalem brings us any closer to HASHEM’s Sovereignty is illogical.
I just reread your post and perhaps I misunderstood, so if you’re talking generally I can’t answer for every eventuality, but when we speak specifics like the embassy I’m pretty sure I’m right.
Since there are too many threads here on this topic, my time is limited, and I probably won’t change anyone’s mind here I’ll try to refrain from arguing ad infinitum.January 24, 2017 5:46 pm at 5:46 pm #1213708
ITFT -“Most of the British were cold/cool but even handed and hardly antisemitic
There were, naturally, exceptions such as Harry Luke-whose family had shma”d zich”
You forgot Lord Samuel! At the beginning, he was more of a Zionist than Weizmann, but then the Antisemitic British got to him.
He let the Mufti of Jerusalem out of jail. This Mufti created the hatred between Jews and Arabs. This hatred still exists in our day and age!January 24, 2017 6:05 pm at 6:05 pm #1213709lesschumrasParticipant
Mammele, there was no way Israel like win the War for Independence without the help of Hashem and his miracles
As for working thru Bibi, a number of the Shoftim selected by Hashem to liberate the people of Israel in Tanach were deeply flawedJanuary 24, 2017 8:57 pm at 8:57 pm #1213710☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
The answer is, you don’t know, I don’t know, nobody knows.
So you should agree with the OP.January 24, 2017 9:13 pm at 9:13 pm #1213711hujuParticipant
Joseph’s opening post makes sense to me. It gives me hope that any day now, our new US president might make a sensible comment. And by the way, everything our new president says is no more than a comment.January 24, 2017 10:54 pm at 10:54 pm #1213712akupermaParticipant
The issue is not the spirituality of what the Americans, or the zionists, do, but the practical political and legal implications.
They Arabs will be annoyed, but they are annoyed over a lot of things. Most object to Israeli presence in Jerusalem no more, and no less, than the Israeli presence in the rest of the country. To an Arab Muslim (and to a Jew, for that matter), there is really no differnce between Hevron, Jerusalem and Haifa – its all one country.
If the US moves the embassy, it does recognize that Israel has a right to at least the territory from the 1949-1967 borders, and that what is up for bargaining is what was conquered in 1967, and no more. It might force the Arabs to give up their bargaining position which has been “withdraw to the 1949-1967 lines, and then we’ll discuss what, if anything, you can keep of what’s left”.January 25, 2017 3:58 am at 3:58 am #1213713mw13Participant
The point may be moot…
Trump Pauses on Jerusalem Embassy Plans
By Alexis Simendinger
January 23, 2017
President Trump is taking a new look at his campaign vow to move the U.S. Embassy in Israel from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem, his spokesman said Monday…
Until Monday, Trump supporters believed the president might take action on the embassy move as early as this week. While the administration remains officially committed to the idea, the timing did not appear imminent.January 25, 2017 4:10 am at 4:10 am #1213714UtahMember
Joseph – I fully disagree with you in what you said in this quote:
“Jews should not be supporting the State of Israel or its interests, other than to the extent they promote safety.”
I think that you are completely wrong about this and that the State of Israel does a lot of good for the Jewish people. The state gives funding to yeshivas and other Jewish institutions. The state does a lot of good and I’m sorry that you are unable to see it. While you are entitled to your opinion I really disagree with you and hope that you would be able to see Israel in a different light.January 25, 2017 5:57 am at 5:57 am #1213715
Utah, how many times do I have to explain the difference between a government and a state?January 25, 2017 2:01 pm at 2:01 pm #1213716besalelParticipant
while i disagree completely, i appreciate joseph’s general argument that jews should not be zionists and therefore approach issues in israel from a pragmatic and not sentimental point of view. that being said, as akuperma points out, joseph’s “pragmatism” is misplaced. There is no rational reason why anyone should object to placing the embassy in west jerusalem. while an argument can be made that jews should avoid upsetting its surrounding neighbors, this is only true if there is a rational basis for the neighbors being upset. there are many irrational, upset neighbors in lakewood and monroe (that joseph never talks about) but that does not mean that jews should disappear from those areas just because their mere presence upsets the neighbors.
bottom line: if anyone claims that placing an embassy in west jerusalem somehow serves as a hindrance to the two state solution, it only goes to prove how immature and unrealistic the two state solution actually is.January 25, 2017 3:14 pm at 3:14 pm #1213719
Yes, Lord Samuel was jewish as well.As was Antizionist Lord Montagu
Sir Ronald Storrs,for one, was supposedly antisemitic.Yet some accounts admit what he really hated were socialist eastern europeans . He got along fabulous with the orthodox Ms. Laundau “The Queen” Headmistress of the De Rothschild School and would hire her pupils.
The tzaddik Sir Harry Goodman of London while speaking at the 1954 Knessia Gedolah was heckled for having been too “pro british”
“At the beginning, he was more of a Zionist than Weizmann, but then the Antisemitic British got to him”
It’s patently false too call [most of ] the British “Antisemitic”,though it worked for zionist propagandaJanuary 25, 2017 4:01 pm at 4:01 pm #1213720
ITFT -“It’s patently false too call [most of ] the British “Antisemitic”,though it worked for zionist propaganda”
IDK the personal beliefs of the citizens of the UK, but their representatives in their government.
The Western world, namely Britain and France, created Arab control of Iraq, Syria, Jordan, etc. But they refused to give control of Israel to the Jews!
I’m personally against the Medina, but it’s due to Religious reasons, not because I’m Antisemitic, like those countries!January 25, 2017 5:35 pm at 5:35 pm #1213721
The old yekke R’Uri Weinberg a”h who arrived in Palestine in 1943, would say the The british and their statisticians would come up with all their calculations and on paper they were correct indeed:Palestine could not contain more than a population of 400,000 ,etc.,etc,etc.,
The problem was they could not give that Yidden in Eretz yisroel operate on a whole different set of rules
“But they refused to give control of Israel to the Jews!”
They would’ve done the same that they were doing in Arab regions,had the locals agreed.January 25, 2017 5:59 pm at 5:59 pm #1213722american_yerushalmiParticipant
Utah: “…the State of Israel does a lot of good for the Jewish people. The state gives funding to yeshivas and other Jewish institutions.”
If a murderer shoots a number of people, and at one point, he decides, “OK, I’ll let some of these folks live.” Should we sing the praises of this murderer for not shooting them all? Killing some people and sparing a few — is that reason to show gratitude?
The state has spiritually (and physically…) murdered so many immigrants over the years. This is not ancient history; it happened only about 60-80 years ago. And they still try to do it whenever they can get away with it. The majority of the secular population of Israelis are the result of spiritually murdering them or their parents/grandparents. So, ring a ding ding, they allow a few religious schools to flourish, not nearly at the same level of subsidy as the ‘murdering’ (secular) schools. So, should we be grateful to the spiritual murderers of so many of our fellow Jews?
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Hence, according to Chazal, whatever good the state has done is outweighed by the spiritual destruction that it has deliberately wrought among the Jewish people. We are grateful to Hashem that He caused them to spare us and our families. But, the spiritual wasteland they have created surely does not deserve a drop of praise from any of us.January 25, 2017 6:19 pm at 6:19 pm #1213723
AY, the State did no such thing. Some people who worked for it did those things. In fact, Rav Soloveichik pointed out that the establishment of the State saved Jews from mass conversion. Missionaries were using the Holocaust as proof that Hashem had divorced us c”v.They even accosted him during his travels between Boston and NY. The great kiddush Hashem that was the establishment of the State shut them up and gave renewed pride to faltering Jews. It is impossible to deny the miracles that Hashem has given to us in all of the wars, the ingathering of exiles, the tremendous economic progress of the past decades. One is ungrateful to a person is considered worse than a dog. How much more so one who ungrateful to Hashem.January 25, 2017 10:12 pm at 10:12 pm #1213724
His brother said he was ‘chozer’ from most of what he said in ’60s.
Oh,you missed thatJanuary 26, 2017 8:12 am at 8:12 am #1213725american_yerushalmiParticipant
I see. So, the SS criminals who emptied canisters of cyanide crystals down the chute at Auschwitz were just “people who worked for the German state.” Or NKVD/KGB agents who treated our fellow Jews savagely were “just people who worked for the Soviet state.” Seriously? We remain adamant in our thanks to Hashem for all that He has done for us. At the same time, we refuse to give homage to the wicked people (Jews!) who ran the state apparatus 60+ years ago who perpetrated spiritual genocide against our fellow religious Jews. All attempts to obfuscate their crimes will not succeed.January 26, 2017 12:38 pm at 12:38 pm #1213726
A time for ?, he said this well before the Sixties. What did he say that he was chozer from? As Rav Aharon was a staunch opponent of the Oslo agreements. I very strongly doubt your contention.January 26, 2017 5:14 pm at 5:14 pm #1213727
ITFT -“They would’ve done the same that they were doing in Arab regions,had the locals agreed.”
What are you saying – that the Jews wanted the British control?!?January 27, 2017 5:05 am at 5:05 am #1213728
The Peel Commission of 1937 offered to grant autonomy or independence to the inhabitants
the Arabs rejected giving any territory to the New Yishuv
The New Yishuv rejected what they were being offered
The Yishuv hayashan and some others as well were more concerned with both sides and preferred the status quo of the Mandate (even if they complained about their limitations re: access to the kosel)January 27, 2017 5:06 am at 5:06 am #1213729
Recall also the difficult climate
For some of the absurdity , read the wikipedia page of LechiJanuary 27, 2017 3:32 pm at 3:32 pm #1213730
In 1945 with the Labour Massive Win, the situation took a serious turn for the worse
The new pugnacious Foreign Sec.Ernest Bevin was antisemitic and were some of his subordinates
“Those who sow the wind, will reap the whirlwind”
Who helped cause the astonishing massive Victory and first ever Labour Majority Government?
Which ethnic group was arguably the prime driving force within and behind Labour (more even than the Scots)?
How come The Histadrut of Palestine campaigned for Labour but then came to regret it ?
How come 90% of the Jews of britain voted Labour?
How come there was nostalgia in the early ’50s for the Mandate
which was a cause for
Herut down from 14 to 8 Seats in the 2nd Knesset?January 27, 2017 5:19 pm at 5:19 pm #1213731
ITFT -“The Peel Commission of 1937 offered to grant autonomy or independence to the inhabitants
the Arabs rejected giving any territory to the New Yishuv
The New Yishuv rejected what they were being offered”
The mistake you’re making is that the original mandate was separating Tran-Jordan and Palestine.
Palestine was for the Jews.
The hateful British changed that!
This change continued with the UN.
From the internet:
Resolution 181 was a none-binding recommendation to partition Palestine, whose implementation hinged on acceptance by both parties – Arabs and Jews. The resolution was adopted on November 29, 1947 in the General Assembly by a vote of 33 – 12, with 10 abstentions. Among the supporters were both the United States and the Soviet Union, and other nations including France and Australia. The Arab nations, including Egypt, Syria, Iraq, and Saudi Arabia denounced the plan on the General Assembly floor and voted as a bloc against Resolution 181 promising to defy its implementation by force. [italics by author]January 27, 2017 5:37 pm at 5:37 pm #1213732mentsch1Participant
Allow me to present a different way of looking at it. Yerushalyim is a holy city.It should remain that way. We should guard it’s sanctity.
Do we really need to invite more goyim to live in yerushalyim? Embassies have large support staffs, all of whom expect goyish type pass-times, none of which should be engaged in, in a holy city.January 29, 2017 3:46 am at 3:46 am #1213733
” A UN Commission recommended .. Jerusalem and its surrounding villages were to be temporarily classified as an international zone belonging to neither polity.”
The Rav Dushinsky of the Eidah HaCharedis appeared before a UN Panel requesting that that how it should remainJanuary 29, 2017 5:54 am at 5:54 am #1213734
Rav Tzvi Yehuda found it difficult to celebrate the UN decision because they divided our land. Ramban says in his Sefer HaMitzvot that it is absolutely prohibited to allow any other people sovereignty over any part of Eretz Yisrael.January 29, 2017 1:33 pm at 1:33 pm #1213735
The newly reorganized CIA guestimated that the State (it was still uncertain what name it was going to have)would be dominated by the communists within 3 years !
Put the era in perspectiveJanuary 29, 2017 1:35 pm at 1:35 pm #1213736
there were alot of wonderful jews involved in 1948 ( including among others a greatuncle of mine, a leader of mizrachi who was on radio may 14 1948) who arguably were potential ‘useful idiots’January 29, 2017 9:18 pm at 9:18 pm #1213737
ITFT -“The Rav Dushinsky of the Eidah HaCharedis appeared before a UN Panel requesting that that how it should remain”
And what’s wrong with that?
The problem is the UN wants to give part of Palestine, which the original plan was just to the Jews, to the Arabs!January 30, 2017 12:22 am at 12:22 am #1213738ExcellenceParticipant
lesschumras… some Shoftim from the Tanach were deeply flawed, you said?
You couldn’t be more wrong. From the books of the mukabolim I have read, the Judges were deep in Torah knowledge and the Torah nistar. All the actions you read about had deeper mystical significance.
You just don’t know because you haven’t read the seforim on them. What Shimson alone was doing mystically in his actions was amazing…!
Do not underestimate Sefer Shoftim or Sefer Shmuel – there is vast depth beneath their surface. It is just not permitted to write about openly.January 30, 2017 12:54 am at 12:54 am #1213739
Of course what you wrote is correct. Proof: Some were nevi’im
However, the Shoftim are ranked in relative comparison still below their predecessors and successors and they were still chosenJanuary 30, 2017 5:34 pm at 5:34 pm #1213740
Womb with a View
by Rabbi Steven Pruzansky
The broader point is not merely that succumbing to the threats of violence and terror only rewards and encourages the bully but that Israel finds itself (again!?) at a crossroads. The friendly Trump administration enters with no illusions that peace is possible under present circumstances, and well aware that Israel is both a friend and cherished ally. The real question then becomes: what does Israel want?
People generally become so attached to the status quo that any attempt to change it, at all, evokes gasps of horror. (Change the one-China policy? Oy vey! Really?) Netanyahu has become adept at managing the status quo but strategic thinking is also in order. Life also cannot be put on hold pending a resolution of the Iran problem, and to assert that the embassy move should be postponed (forever) because Iran must be dealt with is a non sequitur. Nations can defend themselves, build homes, manage an economy and maintain a capital at the same time. And an American embassy in Yerushalayim would send a powerful message to the world, Arab and European, that the State of Israel exists, will continue to exist, and its just demands deserve recognition.
[Yerushalayim]January 30, 2017 5:41 pm at 5:41 pm #1213741
Excellence, from the books of the chachamim Shimshon sinned with his eyes (Sotah 9b) and Yiftach was an am ha’aretz and gass ruach (Baba Batra 4a).January 30, 2017 5:48 pm at 5:48 pm #1213742
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Becareful what you say…
Your understanding of Shimson “sinning” is superficial and pshat. I already said, Shimshon was doing something mystical. In fact, he was nullifying the Plishtim in a way you don’t understand.
As for Yiftach being a simple man… I’m not even going to waste time refuting you. Those of understanding know the Talmud is but a roadsign to a deeper map. Yiftach a”h was anything but shallow. His soul root alone is high level and intricate.
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