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Jerry Nadler is asking people to vote for him because he is Jewish, besides being JINO Jerry never did anything to help Jews, Just wondering if Identity politics plays into your decision on who your going to vote for?
Yes. All things being equal, I generally prefer to vote for a gentile over a Jew. The Jewish politicians tend to have problems voting Jewishly, whereas a friendly gentile more often can vote for Jewish interests without having to worry how he’ll look among other goyim for doing so.
And as things generally aren’t equal, more often than not there are gentiles more naturally inclined to vote for our values moreso than Jewish politicians.
Thirty years ago I would have preferred a Jewish politician
Back then a secular Jewish politician was more likely to identify with Jewish causes even frum ones than a non-Jewish politician. There were exceptions even back then NYS Senator Alfonzo Demato was a lot closer to the frum community than his liberal Jewish opponents . But on the whole it was true Rav Moshe Feinstein left his hospital bed to visit the hospital bed of totally secular Jewish NYS senator Jacob Javits as hakoras hatov for all that he did for K’llal Yisroel.
Today on the other hand, no way! Not only would I not be more likely to vote for a secular Jewish politician over his non-Jewish opponent even a frum Jewish politician is questionable. If it was a frum Democrat running against a non-Jewish Republican I would almost certainly vote for the non-Jewish Republican candidate.
I once listened to a presentation by a very smart Jewish politician in front of a Jewish audience. I asked him whether he was proud if you were to compare his votes with Jewish values. His answer was brutally honest: I didn’t say I represent Jewish values, I represent values of Jews…
Just because someone is halachically Jewish (had a Jewish mother, father irrelevant), or is a person of obvious Jewish descent (e.g. has a Jewish surname and claims to be Jewish), does not make them “one of us”. For someone to be part of our community, i.e. the Jewish community, the minimum is that the person openly keep kashrus and Shabbos. It is silly to consider someone, such as the politician in question who does not even claim to keep Shabbos and kashrus, to be Jewish. Most people you will meet have Jewish ancestors (going back to ancient times), but that doesn’t mean we should look at them as Jews.
akuperma: Gut gezugt.
@akuperma: Your statement is shocking. How can you compare someone who is JEWISH (i.e. Jewish MOTHER, not necessarily father) to someone who has “Jewish ancestors going back to ancient times” or “has a Jewish surname”!?
“Just because someone is halachically Jewish . . it is silly to consider . . to be Jewish”
How dare you call people who halacha (thus also Torah and Hashem) considers Jewish to not be Jewish?You are obligated be מחלל שבת to save the life of such a Jew (unless he is ישראל מומר להכעיס which is very uncommon).
Every halachic Jew is infinitely dear to Hashem, and even more than the Torah itself (see: תנא דבי אליהו פי”ד. קהלת רבה א, ד. בראשית רבה א, ד. ועוד).
Even a מומר לעבודה זרה ר”ל is considered one of Hashem’s children (see שו”ת הרשב”א ח”א סקצ”ד). How much more so regular פושעי ישראל, which are מלאין מצוות כרימון (see חגיגה כז,א. עירובין יט,א).
How much more so most non-frum people of today who are תינוקות שנשבו whose lack of Yiddishkeit is completely אונס (if someone is too sick to put on tefillin, would you consider him non-Jewish!?) – רמב”ם הלכות ממרים פ”ג ה”ג.
The דין of תינוק שנשבה seems to apply even to someone who grew up with a Jewish education, yet it wasn’t strong enough to keep him in the fold due to the various challenges nowadays which didn’t exist in the past (see Rebbe Rayatz אגרות קודש ח”ב ע’ תקכו. Chazon Ish יו”ד ח”ב טז).P.S. This obviously does not mean that their behavior or opinions are correct WHATSOEVER. Therefore, there is no reason to elect someone just because he is Jewish. We don’t elect people because they are holy, rather if they will do a good job.
Most secular “Jews” are probably not Jews any, and almost certainly most of their grandchildren won’t be. In addition, most of the non-frum Jews in fact engage in avodah zarah, and at the very least reject the very existence of Ha-Shem and Torah. While they find it cute that we frummies act as if they are long lost cousins, they act shocked that we reject the social and cultural values that are the norm in the non-frum communities of those of Jewish descent (many of which can not be discussed on YWN). People like Nadler and Schumer (and the list goes on) are not part of out community. Their successes not only do not reflect favorably on us, but in fact are seen by them as proof that for Jews the only way to success to to reject Ha-Shem and deny Torah. YWN should stop acting as if non-frum persons who claim Jewish ancestry are part of our community.
To the OP: Hashem decides who is Jewish and who is not. You, ujm and I have no role in deciding who is Jewish.
As for voting, ideally, we should know what a candidate believes and how he/she will vote on all issues. Non-ideally, voting based on ethnicity, race, attire, appearance is a cheap and misleading short-cut to learning about the candidates, and I never do that, except for sometimes.
Menachem: You can’t be Mechallel Shabbos to save the life of a Mechallel Shabbos. (Unless there’s an issue of Darchei Shalom.)
The vast majority of non-frum Jews are NOT תינוקות שנשבו.
> , most of the non-frum Jews in fact engage in avodah zarah
maybe you have an image of a politician or a reform rabbi in your mind, but worshiping images _is_ avoda zara. You are ignoring myriads of traditional Jews that may not be shomer-shabbat, but do feel that they belong to the kahal. They are especially prevalent among Sephardim who did not go thru haskala, but there are many others also. Insulting them as a klal is not good
R Twersky’s father used to tell the following story: a chasidishe Rav came to Berlin with a visit. Before making kiddush, he said the following: making kiddush in our shtetl is not such a big deal – you are not announcing anything that people don’t know.. Here, in Berlin, it is very special to say kiddush and announce it to the people who do not hold by it.
Then, the Rav suddenly stopped, paused for several minutes, and then proceeded with the kiddush.
He explained after that – after saying these words, I suddenly lost my connection with HKBH and understood that this was because of the insulting words I used towards the Yidden of Berlin. So, I spent several minutes doing teshuva and thinking good things about them until I felt my connection is restored and then I was able to proceed with the kiddush.
So, if you are prone to similar pronouncements and you don’t feel losing anything – I would worry that you do not have appropriate sensitivity to feel diminishing of the connection, and that might prevent you from doing teshuva. Maybe this story will help as a substitute.
“Most secular “Jews” are probably not Jews any[way]”
This is a blatant lie, most “secular” Jews can track their ancestry (maternally) to regular frum Bubbes and Zaides just as easily as me and (I assume) you.
I know this from daily experience with not-yet-frum Yidden and much research into their Jewishness. And I am not (only) talking about Yidden from very traditional backgrounds. There are countless Yidden who grew up completely “alienated” from any semblance of Yiddishkeit, yet they can go back 3-4 generations to a Bobbe who was just as frum as yours.
You owe an apology to Hashem for being מוציא שם רע on millions of His beloved children.“Engage in avodah zarah”
If by avodah zarah you mean pagan gods or Christianity – you got your facts wrong. If you mean worshiping politicians/celebrities/money – should we start pointing fingers at people in the frum world? It won’t be pretty.“long lost cousins”
Wrong, we are their loving brothers with one Father in Heaven.“they act shocked that we reject the social and cultural values that are the norm in the non-frum communities”
What’s your point? That they were brought up in a environment that has a different culture then us?
That is exactly my point – they are tinok shenishba, we should have rachmonus on our poor brothers who didn’t get a proper Jewish education.
@ujm:“You can’t be Mechallel Shabbos to save the life of a Mechallel Shabbos.”
Mishna Berurah (או”ח סי’ שכט ס”ט) disagrees with you. Some people are extra מחמיר in ahavas yisroel, others are extra מחמיר in the opposite, רחמנא ליצלן.“The vast majority of non-frum Jews are NOT תינוקות שנשבו.”
You OBVIOUSLY did not open the sources which I cited above.If you disagree with the Mishna Berura, the Chazon Ish, the Frierdiker Lubavitcher Rebbe (Rayatz), and many more great poskim and rabbanim – then which sect do you belong to? Reform? Lev Tahor?
Menachem: Rav Moshe Feinstein and the majority of poskim rule that to be a tinok shenishba a person has to be totally and completely unaware of Judaism. Anyone familiar with frum Jews is not a tinok shenishba.
Regarding saving lives on Shabbos, Kitzur Shulchan Aruch 92:1 “Shabbos is pushed aside for Sakonas Nefoshos… therefore it is a Mitzvah to desecrate Shaboss for a Kosher person (even if he sometimes does sins [[ed: not a habitual sinner]]) who is in mortal danger”. Also see also the uncensored Shulchan Aruch Yoreh Dei’ah 158:1. See Shearim Metzuyanim Bahalacha 92:1; He brings the Pri Megadim who says we do not desecrate Shabbos for one who doesn’t keep Shabbos Litai’ovon (for convenience reasons).
@ujm, you are quoting a machlokes between Reb Moshe and the Chazon Ish. Between the Kitzur Shulchan Aruch and the Mishna Berura.
Are you ready to (theoretically) let a fellow Yid die (חס ושלום) because you chose (on your own) to follow a certain opinion?
Did you ask a rov which posek you should follow? Please confirm with your rov which opinion to follow, and even if he rules like the Kitzur and Reb Moshe – you must have him clarify how to confirm if someone is considered a תינוק שנשבה or not.
Until then, I implore that you lean לחומרא for the mitzva of פיקוח נפשות and לא תעמוד על דם רעך and save and protect every single Yid.
Even if they do not have the din of תינוק שנשבה, we are not permitted to degrade them and slander them חס ושלום.
Eliyahu Hanovi and Yeshayohu Hanovi were punished for speaking disparagingly about Jewish IDOL WORSHIPERS (the real kind) – because “אין הקב”ה רוצה במי שאומר דילטורייא על ישראל”.
(שהש”ר פ”א, ו (א). רש”י ישעי’ ו, ו. ועוד)The Rambam writes that if such great tzaddikim were punished, how much more so a קל מקלי העולם who dares to condemn so many Yidden as פושעים ורשעים וגויים ופסולי עדות וכופרים בה’ אלהי ישראל.
(אגרת השמד פ”ב)In these last moments of golus, let’s focus on the positive and holy parts of every Yid.
Regarding the Yidden who are ר”ל temporarily “distant” from Yiddishkeit –
“ראוי להחזירן בתשובה ולמשכם בדברי שלום עד שיחזרו לאיתן התורה”
– thus instantly heralding the coming of Moshiach.
(רמב”ם הלכות ממרים פ”ג ה”ג. ראה הלכות תשובה פ”ז ה”ה, סנהדין צז,ב)To common saychel: Nice to hear you insult overweight frum Jews and believe noses can be Jewish. In you opinion, does a wart on a big nose make it more Jewish? If the Proud Boys ever invite Jews to join, you could do so as a Proud Jew.
Menachem: Are you accusing Reb Moshe, the Kitzur Shulchan Aruch, and the numerous gedolei poskim of “theoretically let a fellow Yid die (חס ושלום) because Reb Moshe, the Kitzur, etc. chose (on their own) to have their opinion”?! The fact is these are the normative psakim of poskim throughout the doros. Your trying to discard these great psakim is beyond the pale.
Yes, absolutely I have clarified with my Rov and Posek that these are the psakim we follow halacha l’maaisa bzman hazeh. And, no, they do not have the din of תינוק שנשבה.
“In these last moments of golus, let’s focus on the positive and holy parts of every Yid.”
The halacha is absolutely clear that we do not consider someone who habitually violates the Torah, Shabbos, etc b’rabbim to be part of us. And isn’t entitled to the various protections and considerations we afford to a Shomer Torah U’Mitzvos.
You should be very concerned to lean לחומרא for the mitzva of שמירות שבת. Let me ask you a serious question, if you were alone in an isolated rural area and saw an akum drowning in a rural lake on Shabbos with no one else around to save him, would you save him knowing that whatever choice you made no one else would know you were there?
A very significant portion (very possibly a majority) of non-Orthodox “Jews” (secular, Reform, Conservative) that self-identify as Jewish, are in fact non-Jewish. These Goyim who are members of the Reform or Conservative movements, or these gentiles who identify themselves as “Jewish”, descend from — or are themselves — invalid conversions from the Reform and Conservatives.
Or the false conversions in Israel of Russians and Ethiopians who never were religious, never intended to be religious and never kept one Shabbos.
Or alternatively were deemed “Jewish” by virtue of patrilineal descent (mainly in the Reform and Reconstructive movements, but even the Conservatives accept their so-called Jewish status, as they cross-recognize the other movements), having a Jewish father and a Gentile mother. Or being several generations down from said goy (great-grandmother) or were adopted by non-Orthodox Jews, or descended any number of generations back from such a child.
Ketubot 15 seems to say that there are different rules to determine if someone is Jewish, such as a baby abandoned by his mother. More lenient for monetary support and saving on shabbos, more stringent for marriage. So you may have different levels of Jewishness
Was the person educated in the halachas of Shabbos?
To common saychel: What makes you think you could possibly know about my yarmulke-wearing? And just to be clear, you are dead wrong.
Jerry Nadler had a frum education. He became an apokorus later.
I wrote:
“Are you ready to (theoretically) let a fellow Yid die (חס ושלום) because you chose (on your own) to follow a certain opinion?”
You wrote:
“accusing Reb Moshe, the Kitzur Shulchan Aruch, and the numerous gedolei poskim of “theoretically let a fellow Yid die (חס ושלום) because Reb Moshe, the Kitzur, etc. chose (on their own) to have their opinion””The difference is obvious: THEY are entitled to their own opinion. YOU are NOT entitled to your own opinion.
I don’t know who you are, but I assume that you are not a posek like the aforementioned.“Yes, absolutely I have clarified with my Rov and Posek … they do not have the din of תינוק שנשבה.”
I wonder what qualifications the rov gave you to know if the person is a תינוק שנשבה… Unless maybe he holds that the very idea doesn’t apply anymore, after all, it was only in the days of the Rambam, Shulchan Aruch, and the Chazon Ish that there were plenty of Jews who never received an education about what Shabbos is. Nowadays, every Jewish child learns all about Shabbos, and chooses to violate it anyway. (!?)
Or maybe תינוק שנשבה only applies to close relatives?“The halacha is absolutely clear”
No it is not. For example, I brought several halachic giants who disagree (Mishna Berura, Chazon Ish, Lubavitcher Rebbe). And there are many more. I would say רובם ככולם of poskim hold that today’s estranged Yidden are a very unique case that must be treated very differently than the classic דינים of מומר and מחלל שבת בפרהסיה.“if you were alone … would you save him?”
No. (in the hypothetical case that I would be completely certain that it wouldn’t become known)“A very significant portion (very possibly a majority) of non-Orthodox “Jews” (secular, Reform, Conservative) that self-identify as Jewish, are in fact non-Jewish.”
Again, this is a lie. The vast majority of “non-Orthodox” Jews are halachically Jewish. As I mentioned before, I deal very much with these types of Jews (presumably more than you), and most of them can point to a definitely Jewish maternal bubby or elter bubby, etc. (who is often just as frum as your own bubby. Assuming yours was frum).
You are using your ignorance to cast a libel on millions of holy Jews.“Or the false conversions in Israel of Russians and Ethiopians”
Any conversions by a non-halachic entity are a terrible tragedy.מנחם שמו
Menachem,
May I ask, is your name based on the Gemara that says moshiach’s name is Menachem, henceforth it is proof that the rebbe can be moshiach?
Menachem, I do not have my own opinion. I simply follow the Gedolei HaPoskim and my Posek, as I mentioned. And they paskened what I told you. You aren’t in a position to tell anyone that they cannot follow certain Gedolei HaPoskim and must follow the ones that you choose or identify.
As far as the second point, I very much deal with non-Orthodox “Jews” very frequently. And I can tell you with a great deal of certainly that a large portion of those who self-identify as such or are affiliated with Reform and Conservative congregations are, in fact, Halachicly non-Jewish.
The Rav Abarbanel and the Chasam Sofer say that משיח stands for the beginning letters of those whose talmidim in the gemora in Sanhadrin Perek Chelek consider Meshiach. מנחם, שלוה, ינון and חנינא.
@coffee addict,
Yes, my name is based on the Gemara (ירושלמי ברכות פ”ב ה”ד) that says that Moshiach’s name is Menachem.
(וכ”ה באיכ”ר פ”א, נא. משא”כ בסנהדרין צח, ב דשם גרסינן מנחם בן חזקיה)I chose this profile name for two reasons:
1) Since my name is actually Menachem (get it? מנחם שמו?)
2) It’s nice to remind myself about Moshiach when I’m online (every word makes a difference – “צריך כל אדם שיראה עצמו כל השנה כלה כאלו חציו זכאי וחציו חיב. וכן כל העולם חציו זכאי וחציו חיב . . עשה מצוה אחת הרי הכריע “את עצמו ואת כל העולם כלו לכף זכות וגרם לו ולהם תשועה והצלה see Rambam Hilchos Teshuva 3:4)“henceforth it is proof that the rebbe can be moshiach?”
Maybe I’m trying to prove that I can be Moshiach…
[Regarding the names of Moshiach listed in Sanhedrin, the Rebbe’s father Reb Levi Yitzchok writes that all the opinions are true – כל הדעות אמת הם ואלו ואלו דא”ח (לקוטי לוי”צ על מארז”ל ע’ קו)]“I do not have my own opinion”
If you look at what I wrote, I continued that you should ask your rov, which you replied that you did.“I very much deal with…”
Nu, I guess we have a מחלוקת במציאות.
My heart goes out to those holy Yidden who you “very much deal with”. May Hashem bless them and protect them.מנחם שמו
I differentiate between the Yidden and the Goyim who think they’re Jewish.
Then I guess the question is who will more easily turn on us a frei yid or a non jew
“I differentiate between the Yidden and the Goyim who think they’re Jewish.”
That is indeed very important. As the Lubavitcher Rebbe says, when a goy is told by a “rabbi” that he is a Yid, not only does it bring a terrible churban for the Jewish people, but also for the goy himself (e.g., a goy who keeps Shabbos is חייב מיתה).Last week, I met someone on the street who excitedly told me that he is Jewish and he wants to learn more about his heritage.
Before putting on Tefillin with him, I asked him to clarify his roots. It came out he was genetically %59 “Jewish” from his father’s side.
I politely explained him that Judaism does not consider him Jewish, and that he must serve G-d as a righteous gentile (sheva mitzvos).
He walked away quite dejected, but much safer than if he wouldn’t have known, חס ושלום.Boruch Hashem, it is usually easy to be מברר if someone is halachically Jewish or not (aside from when it comes to marriage when we are more מחמיר to be %100 sure).
Wouldn’t JIYO be more accurate? “Jewish In Yichus Only”?
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