March 20, 2019 9:05 am at 9:05 am #1698992jdbParticipant
Moshe Rabbeinu did not wear a tie, a suit, a bekeshe or a fedora. Rebbe Akiva and Rashi did not dress like Rav Moshe. Bnei torah dress with a certain kavod, a respectability. Some communities maintain a stricter adherence to older modes of dress, some are more up to date in their modes of dress. But let’s be real – few communities can date their mode of dress to the rishonim – and these are mostly the sefardim, no the Asheke/Chassidim.
The idea of bochrim shaving is not new. Look at pictures of the yeshivos before the war. Bochrim in the Lita and many in Poland did not have beards or long peiyos. They generally wore suits and fedoras, and most were colorful – not just black. Ties are not new – you see them in the video of the Chafets Chaim.
Times change and styles change. Not a reason for machlokes.March 20, 2019 9:05 am at 9:05 am #1699006
Your points are all historical. The fact that one of the only contemporary examples you can bring is the Mt. Kisco “old minyan” should tell you something. If you go back far enough, all chassidim davened Ashkenaz. Different groups probably switched at different points.
Anyway, ignoring the Chassidishe angle, Mt. Kisco is not a run of the mill Litvish yeshiva. Your original claim was that “Oberlanders” are definitively Litvish.March 20, 2019 9:08 am at 9:08 am #1699059
Again, Lit, your not disputing my point. You’re simply discussing to what extent it occurred, not whether it occurred.
Nowhere did I state that there weren’t other Oberlanders who moved towards the Litvish/Yeshivish world.
So tell me, Lit, between those that moved towards Chasidism and those that moved towards the Litvish world, how many are left — especially among the younger generation — that retain the original purely Oberland hashkafa? You know, their havara (which was similar to the Chasidims), Nusach Ashkenaz (like the Litvish) and their other aspects and minhagim.
You could say the same about the Yekkes too, btw. Instead of moving towards Chasidism and to a lesser extent Litvishism like the Oberlanders, the Yekkes mostly melted into the Litvish/Yeshivish world while another contingent (smaller than the former) melted into the MO world. Yes, those that melted away oftentimes still hold on to some shrayim of Yekkishkeit, like wearing a Talis starting by their Bar Mitzvah.
And then there’s the few left over who still stick with the original Yekke/RSRH/Breuer’s minhagim/kehilla.
And like your complaint that the current Vienner Rov made Vien too Chasidish, there are those in Khal Adas Jeshurun who complain that Rav Shimon Schwab zt’l made KAJ too Yeshivish/Litvish.March 20, 2019 1:36 pm at 1:36 pm #1699255GAONParticipant
“there are those in Khal Adas Jeshurun who complain that Rav Shimon Schwab zt’l made KAJ too Yeshivish/Litvish.”
You do understand, there is a major Halachic diff between switching to Chassidish which includes switching Nusach haTefilah and Yeshivish…
But in any case, everyone did what they thought will keep the youth in touch with Yidishkeit and that is really that matters. Being a “simple” erlich Ashkenazic Jew does not fly these days any more. The same reason Chassidus spread out two hundred years ago..March 20, 2019 1:45 pm at 1:45 pm #1699322
Gaon: How does being a simple erlich Ashkenazic Jew these days fly less than being Chasidic?March 20, 2019 9:08 pm at 9:08 pm #1699432
“b’shem R’ Yaakov – that since the takanah of chazaras hasha”s for Mincha was only for people who couldn’t daven on their own (as opposed to Shacharis when there’s also Birchas Kohanim), batei medrash, in which generally only people who know how to daven on their own daven, were excluded.”
You are repeating lies made up, because Reb Yaakov would never argue and go against Shulchan Aruch which REQUIRES chazoras HaShatz at mincha (not just for amei ha’aretz that can’t daven), I am moche for the kovod of Reb Yaakov that those words were mevazeh.
Bais Yossef staes:
אבל הספרדים אין נוהגים לחזור ש”ץ התפלה במנחה אלא מתפלל ש”ץ עם הציבור בקול רם ואומר קדושה וברכת אתה קדוש ואח”כ אומר האמצעיות בלחש עם הציבור ומתחיל רצה בקול רם וגומר תפלתו בקול רם ומנהג האשכנזים הוא הנכון וכן הנהיגו חכמים שבדור שלפנינו בצפ”ת תוב”ב
And indeed ends:
ומנהג האשכנזים הוא הנכון וכן הנהיגו חכמים שבדור שלפנינו
וגזרו לעובר על תקנתם yet the Litvish Yeshivos are עובר על תקנתם daily?!
So now shulchan aruch only applies to the nebech non-talmidei chachomim, but “super-Jews” that learn in yeshiva are “exempt” from normative halacha?!March 21, 2019 10:37 am at 10:37 am #1699457
Gaon, your point is noted but that is a separate discussion than what we’re talking about. And there’s answers to your point. Your point would be no different than regarding the first Chasidim when they went to Nusach Sefard. And they have answers justifying it. There’s nothing particularly unique in this regard with the Oberlanders who became Chasidim.
The discussion here is about changing the mesorah, minhagim and hashkafas from your father and grandfathers mesorah. In that regard, the Oberlanders who became Chasidim are no different than the Yekkes who became Litvaks.March 21, 2019 1:06 pm at 1:06 pm #1699591
“In that regard, the Oberlanders who became Chasidim are no different than the Yekkes who became Litvaks.”
Um, no. Unless by become Litvak you strictly mean people who started following minhag haGra. If you’re just talking about Yekkes going from being more modern to more yeshivish, that is in no way comparable to a mesorah change.
“How does being a simple erlich Ashkenazic Jew these days fly less than being Chasidic?”
I don’t think Gaon was condoning it, just pointing out the social trend.March 21, 2019 8:40 pm at 8:40 pm #16996385ishParticipant
“It was much easier to trim if anything.”
Yet the Chofetz Chaim writes explicitly in Tiferes Adam that the custom is not to allow any type of utensil to cut to shorten the beard and that since that was the accepted minhag yisroel it has the force of a prohibition.March 21, 2019 8:41 pm at 8:41 pm #16996375ishParticipant
“The idea of bochrim shaving is not new. Look at pictures of the yeshivos before the war. Bochrim in the Lita and many in Poland did not have beards or long peiyos.”
When they started shaving before the war, however, it was new and it was due to the influence of the haskala and the other winds of modernity. Just because something happened “before the war” in Europe does not make it a time honored Torah true tradition. R”L a lot of the Jewish world was frei then too.March 21, 2019 8:41 pm at 8:41 pm #1699627
My mesorah is when the name Haman is said – to bang with my hand on the table. Yes, I am a Hand Banger.
Lately I am thinking of joining the Foot Stompers. They are so cool and I think it would be nice to be one of them.
I know it means breaking from my mesorah and there are halachic issues with Foot Stompers (being mevazeh the mitzvah by using your feet!).
Many Gedolim even consider Foot Stompers as Ovdei Avoda Zara because Aravim bowed to the dust on their feet!
Besides, the Foot Stompers also do a Hoicha Kedusha at mincha, but the Hand Bangers don’t sleep in the Sukkah! I am unsure about Gebrokts or kitniyos or views on Moshiach.
– so is there a problem leaving my mesorah to join the Foot Stompers?March 21, 2019 8:45 pm at 8:45 pm #1699629The AlterParticipant
You should know the history before you make any changes. Its best to get your advice from what Rabonim in past generations wrote in regards to this topic.March 21, 2019 10:03 pm at 10:03 pm #1699655
“When they started shaving before the war, however, it was new and it was due to the influence of the haskala and the other winds of modernity.”
5ish look into the teshuva of the Chasam Sofer and you’ll see that it wasn’t new. Stop trying to make up history. Also accept the fact that everyone has their customs. The beard doesn’t make the yid. Plenty of other things to focus on.March 21, 2019 11:00 pm at 11:00 pm #1699656
Chofetz Chaim writes explicitly in Tiferes Adam that the custom is not to allow any type of utensil to cut to shorten the beard and that since that was the accepted minhag yisroel it has the force of a prohibition.
But the Chofetz Chaim is only followed when it fits with our lifestyle! Let’s find fault in others. It makes us feel better than examining ourselves.
Those guys don’t sleep in Amish and eat cake before davening!March 21, 2019 11:00 pm at 11:00 pm #1699664
I’m 100% fine with saying we’re meikel on beards while Chabad is machmir.
So, 2 questions: What more do you want from us? Is there any topic where you’re willing to admit to being more meikel, or do you have to redefine everything such that you’re always the machmir one?March 21, 2019 11:39 pm at 11:39 pm #1699681
It’s not just chabad who are machmir on beards it’s more like all chassidishe groups. The only reason it seems unique to chabad is because they heavily judge people based on beards. Even many modern lubavitchers trim nowadays but that’s besides the point. Anyway most litvish do have beards and especially after marriage. But again not sure why the beard makes the yid in your eyes cause it definitely doesn’t. It grows by itself and bums have beards as well so nothing to work hard for. Try to focus on actual Torah and mitzvohs it’ll be a better way to use up your time.
Rebetzin, everyone has their own customs. In Litvish hashkafa there aren’t really dynasties so their are many different customs following many different Tzadikkim not forgetting actual halacha. Again the teshuva from Chasam Sofer is from around 200 years ago.
Besides that even those who you refer to follow things only when convenient for them. Sort of like a pick and choose. Easy to focus on when it helps their cause but convenient enough to ignore other things when it doesn’t.March 22, 2019 8:19 am at 8:19 am #1699692Yabia OmerParticipant
It’s interesting that when it comes to Ashkenazim, a lot of the differences in customs are things that are chitzoni like type of hat (or presence of hat), type of peyos, beard or no beard, type of kipa, etc. Why is that? Why is the outside appearance the ikar?March 22, 2019 8:23 am at 8:23 am #1699696☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
Why is the outside appearance the ikar?
If those differences you observe seem so important to you, perhaps you should be asking yourself that question.March 22, 2019 9:53 am at 9:53 am #1699708Reb EliezerParticipant
Yabia Omer, The Sefer Hachinuch says אדם נפעל כפי פעולותיו, a person is influenced through his actions. The outside behavior influences his inner thinking.March 22, 2019 11:10 am at 11:10 am #1699755Yabia OmerParticipant
What I mean to say is from observing discussions among Ashkenazim as to differences, a big proportion of them are things that are chitzoni, and in the big picture, seem not so important.March 25, 2019 2:42 pm at 2:42 pm #1700919It is Time for TruthParticipant
No need to defend R’ Yaakov
Shulchan Aruch was never the be all and end all for old Litvishe Rabbanim.
cf. Bach intro.
Since when has it been
the be all and end all for Chabad?! irony
He is content with your intestinal perturbationsMarch 26, 2019 8:34 am at 8:34 am #1701660Shimon NodelParticipant
Become a gaon. You could also go off the derech. It’s sad, but most litvak went off the derech.March 28, 2019 9:07 pm at 9:07 pm #1704494
That’s a good pointApril 2, 2019 7:16 am at 7:16 am #1706420LitParticipant
The Litvishe derech is Emes and yashrus.
I think most Litvaks are on that derech (some more than others, of course).
Halevai others would be too.April 2, 2019 11:48 am at 11:48 am #1706529
Lit: And the Sefardic derech is chopped liver?April 2, 2019 1:43 pm at 1:43 pm #1706757
“Lit: And the Sefardic derech is chopped liver?”
He didn’t say mesorah. Most Sphardim in America learn in normal, Litvish yeshishas.
Why are you assuming everyone here is Ashkenazi? You think when Lubavitchers speak condescendingly about those who shave, that they’re only referring to Ashkenazim? Their hatred is directed at all non-Chabadniks; that includes Sphardim.
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