Joining Sephardic

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  • #1697725

    Yabia Omer
    Participant

    Just sayin’….

    #1697747

    Joseph
    Participant

    Can I start eating kitniyos if I join?

    It might just make it worth it despite the extra selichos.

    #1697763

    Yankelle
    Participant

    @joseph, but then you also need to eat only BY meat also.

    #1697766

    Joseph
    Participant

    @yankelle – I’m makpid on Chasidishe shechita. Do they make BY with Chasidishe shechita?

    #1697802

    kollelman
    Participant

    @joseph – In general I find Sephardim are meikel in Shabbos, Pesach, Time of start of “night”.
    Ashkenazim seem to be machmir in almost everything else except for food.
    Also, Sephardim don’t believe in adding new “gezeiros”, while Ashkenazim seem to have added quite a few over the years.

    #1697865

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Move to Syria, You can then be Sephardic

    #1698068

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Do they make BY with Chasidishe shechita?

    Yes

    #1698069

    Yabia Omer
    Participant

    1. Not all Sephardim eat Kitniyot on Pesach!!!!!
    2. Not all Sephardim are Syrian!!!

    #1698089

    I love all Yidden. You should too. Especially if you are shomer mitzvos because there is that “great mitzva” of ahavas Yisroel: V’avavta is not just to love Litvaks! Sefardim are t’horim! They are much “pure blood” than Ashkenazim. They are also genetically closer to the Avos and Shevatim than Caucasian Jews. And there mesora is more uniform than Ashkenazim who have a cholent of minhagim (example: Chassidim and Misnagdim and Yekkas and Oberlanders etc). Embrace all Yidden like Hashem wants us to – Am Echad!

    #1698079

    lakewhut
    Participant

    I want to eat nikkar meat

    #1698086

    Joseph
    Participant

    Trivia:

    Explain how to tell the difference whether a person is a) Sephardic or b) Mizrachi.

    #1698113

    Yabia Omer
    Participant

    You can’t “tell”. But you can ask where they come from and that will give you a clue. In modern Israeli culture, academia and media, they now tend to use Mizrahi for as a wide ranging term. Sephardic tends to be more in the religious world.

    #1698183

    Joseph
    Participant

    How would a Sephardi or Mizrachi know that he’s a Sephardi and not a Mizrachi, or vice versa?

    #1698189

    places
    Participant

    rebbitzen i am assuming that you are not so familiar with the sefardim,
    the different types have very different minhagim

    #1698190

    ZSK
    Participant

    Yabia Omer:

    Joseph, in his typical hateful and condescending fashion, is referring to “Mizrachi” as it refers to the Kippah Sruga wearing community, not Sephardic Jewry or Sephardic/vaguely Middle Eastern culture.

    Can’t miss an opportunity to hate on other Jews, can ya bro?

    #1698194

    Not commenting
    Participant

    By the way just for the record it is agreed by all that Sephardic food is much better then ashkenaz and that could very simply proven just by asking any Ashkenazi that ever tasted REAL Sephardic food.

    #1698292

    lakewhut
    Participant

    ZSK wrong. He means people whose families lived in the middle east but not from Spain.

    #1698308

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “Joseph, in his typical hateful and condescending fashion, is referring to “Mizrachi” as it refers to the Kippah Sruga wearing community”
    Where? Did they take down the comment? Or, are you just assuming that’s how he uses the word Mizrachi because that’s how everyone uses it today?

    I’ve never personally heard a frum, Sphardi person refer to himself as “Mizrachi” even if he were from the east of Israel. The word has been appropriated, unfortunately.

    #1698294

    Joseph
    Participant

    ZSK, you’re the hater here. Your comment is patently false and absolutely not what I meant. In fact, never before you posted your comment have I associated the term Mizrachi with kipa sruga Jews.

    NC: You apparently never tasted a good cholent and kugel.

    Mr. Rebbetzin: No they are not “purer bold” and nor is the mesorah/minhagim of the Jews from Spain (Sephardim) any closer to the Avos than the mesorah/minhagim of the Jews from France and Germany (Ashkenazim.)

    #1698398

    Not commenting
    Participant

    Joseph there is nothing to say but your wrong about everything and I did taste some awesome chulent and kugel but Sephardic food is still better

    #1698402

    Not commenting
    Participant

    Original minhagim by the way all came from our avos ect. Yes but if you really want to get technical avaraham avinu was from Aram Naharaim AKA Syria Moshe rabenu was from Egypt after very galus the Jews were scattered to Sephardic countries like Persia Spain Babylon Greece ect. Only during th reshonim time is where the Jews migrated to ashkenaz countries …..I believe

    #1698418

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    I wonder if in the time of Mordechai when Haman said מפוזר ומפורד they argued like this

    #1698412

    GAON
    Participant

    Rebbetzin: “Ashkenazim who have a cholent of minhagim (example: Chassidim and Misnagdim and Yekkas and Oberlanders etc).”

    Speak for yourself about being confused. You don’t even know which gender you are!

    Asides, you obviously do NOT have any inkling about Minhagim of Sefardim. Each region had their own Minhagim as well. Syrian, Persian, Bagdad etc..same way Ashkenazim have. And the rest, you totally confused with Yemenite’s….

    #1698414

    GAON
    Participant

    “Can I start eating kitniyos if I join?

    It might just make it worth it despite the extra selichos.”

    Yes, that is the deal. An entire Elul of Selichos for eating Kitniyot and perhaps your wife covering with a Mitpachat..

    #1698420

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “In fact, never before you posted your comment have I associated the term Mizrachi with kipa sruga Jews.”
    Then you’re very out-of-touch and prone to having many a confusing conversation with Israelis.

    “Only during th reshonim time is where the Jews migrated to ashkenaz countries …..I believe”
    Let’s just say this were true, so what? Wouldn’t you want your migration to have happened later rather than earlier if you were claiming your mesora was closer to what was done in Eretz Yisroel?
    Also, there’s no evidence of Jews living in Carthaginian Spain. The communities were probably not there until at least Roman times (maybe you weren’t claiming otherwise; it wasn’t clear). The reason we call places like Persia “Sphardic” (which means Spanish) is because many Spanish communities fled to places like that after the expulsion of 1492. None of this has any bearing of mesora authenticity; I’m not getting involved with that. The point is, Jews living under Cyrus the great were not “Sphardim.” There’s no connection between the ancient Persian exile and the 20th century Persian communities.

    #1698876

    Yabia Omer
    Participant

    There absolutely is a connection between the ancient Persian exile and modern day Persian communities.

    #1698939

    Joseph
    Participant

    And who has a closer connection to Eretz Yisroel between the Sefardim from Barcelona, Spain compared to the Ashkenazim from Worms, Germany?

    #1698972

    kollelman
    Participant

    @joseph are you implying the Ashkenazic community was closer? It is well documented that the Sephardic communities in Spain and throughout the Middle East were in constant contact with the Geonim and maintained an unbroken chain of Mesorah.

    #1698979

    Joseph
    Participant

    Kollelman: What’s your source as to where this is “documented” to a greater extent than the Ashkenazim?

    Do you know how and/or when the Sefardim ended up in Spain and/or how/when the Ashkenazim ended up in France and Germany? Or from where each of them originally came from before Europe?

    #1698982

    ZSK
    Participant

    @joseph – I don’t buy that for a moment. You’ve never heard Chassidim or the Yeshiva world condescendingly refer to the Kippah Srugah wearing community as “Mizrachi”? Come on. I don’t believe you’re that sheltered. A vast majority of members of my in-laws’ community vaguely northwest of Manhattan that is made up of transplants from Lakewood and Brooklyn love to refer to that community by the term. I hear it every time I visit.

    @Neville – You mean how the Charedi world uses it. Mizrachi in the world I live in (regular Israel outside Anglo enclaves) refers to something pretty specific: Sephardic culture – music, food, poetry, literature, etc., but also directly in reference to Moroccan Jews. FWIW, I’ve also never heard anyone religious Sephardic refer to themselves as Mizrachi. On the other hand, I have heard the Hebrew term “השתכנז” used to describe Sephardim who act like Ashkenazim.

    @Lakewhut – The proper term for those communities is “Edot HaMizrach”, although “Sephardic” seems to be the adopted term in the modern era, at least in the Anglosphere. They still use the proper term in Israel. Joseph is trying to cover up his biases again.

    #1698983

    GAON
    Participant

    Joseph.
    If you going by region, you might as well throw in תימנים…some say they have the closest mesorah, e.g. Rav Noson Adler ztl would say Krias shma with the Temani havarah, for the above reason.

    #1698984

    ah ha
    Participant

    I’m Sephardic. This conversation seems silly to me.
    No jew is better than the other. We’re all jews and we all have a kesher to the Ribono Shel Olam. It’s funny because i grew up thinking there’s such a divide. But as i got older, i realized, it seems so useless to make imaginary lines between the types of jews. Hashem wants us to be together. Yes,we may have some differing halchot,but that doesn’t mean we’re more or less closer to Hashem.

    #1698893

    msig88
    Participant

    There is a misconception nowadays about Sephardim. Sephardim means those who are from Spain. Iraq is not spain, nor is Syria and nor is Iran. Jews originating from these countries are not Sephardim rather they are mizrachim. The general uniformity you find amongst the “Sephardic” world comes as a result of the influence which the shulchan aruch had on the jewish world and the kehillas who adopted the psakim of the shulchan aruch. In 1992, Rav ovadia Yosef ztz”l when he was chief rabbi attended an event in Spain commemorating 500 years since the inquisition. At this event the king of Spain asked Rav ovadia why so many call themselves Sephardi when in essence they are not of Sephardic origin. Rav ovadia replies that it was due to the acceptance of the shulchan aruch that they called themselves sephardic.
    Of course Jews escaping the inquisition reached Syria, Iraq, Persia etc but these were few in number. The vast majority of spanish Jews fled to morocco, Italy, Holland and the Balkans/greece/turkey. Minhagim amongst these communities are similar as is the nusach. The nusach of real Sephardim is slightly different to the nusach of the “Sephardic” siddurim available today.
    With regard to pesach, a lot depends on family minhagim and the towns they were from. Stringencies developed based on maasim which happened in that town. For example some don’t eat sugar because once they found a crumb in the sugar left over by the vendor, rice wasn’t eaten because they would be shipped in the same bags as flour, or they would bleach the rice with flour. Some don’t eat chickpeas because in arabic Hamus sounds like chametz…. and so on.

    The pasuk in ovadia says vegalut yerushalayim Asher bisfarad. There’s a mesorah that Jews were living in Spain since the times of the bayit rishon as Shlomo hamelech sent Tax collectors there (one is buried in tarragon). It is also claimed that Toledo was built by jewish expulsees when the first bet hamikdash was destroyed. This is documented by the Abarbanel who says his family as in Spain for 2000 years (they were descendants of david hamelech)

    #1699002

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    Ashkenazim aren’t allowed to be proud of our mesorah, it’s racism. You should know that Joseph. You thought there was no PC in the frum world?

    #1699054

    Joseph
    Participant

    ZSK: “The proper term for those communities is “Edot HaMizrach”, although “Sephardic” seems to be the adopted term”

    Which communities? How are you differentiating between who is properly Sephardic and who is properly Edot Hamizrach.

    Specifically describe each and how you properly differentiate between the two.

    (And where “Northwest of Manhattan”? That sounds like some upper scale Modern Orthodox wannabe community.)

    #1699056

    Joseph
    Participant

    GAON: Your 100% correct about the תימנים.

    #1699113

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Just like one should adopt Satmar minhagim if you move to Kiryat Joel, If you move to a REAL Sephardic comminty like Tunisia, Yemen or maybe Morrocco then you can adopt Sephardic customs (Im not sure any other real independent Sephardic communities exist anymore)

    #1699173

    Yabia Omer
    Participant

    I believe Edot Hamizrach is a contemporary Israeli term to refer to “non-Spanish” Sephardim, like Iraqis, Kurds, etc.

    Regarding the Mizrachi movement, I don’t think there’s anything derogatory about it. No different than saying “Bnei Akiva” or any other movement.

    Btw, NO MOROCCANS refer to themselves as Mizrahim unless it’s in an Israeli cultural context. Mizrahi is a modern, invented term (just like Haredi actually)

    #1699191

    Joseph
    Participant

    I thought that the “non-Spanish Sephardim” intermarried with the original Spanish Sephardim over the past 500 years since the Spanish Sephardim moved into the countries of the Edah Hamizrach, to the extent that it is rare today that any Sephardi is anything other than of mixed heritage of original Spanish and original Edah Hamizrach.

    Even the different minhagim of the original Edah Hamizrach and of the original Spanish Sephardim were usually combined into one nusach/minhagim. And more often than not the original Spanish nusach survived more than the original Edah Hamizrach nusach. That, for example, happened in Syria. This was because numerically the Spanish Sephardim were a lot more numerous in the places they moved to after the Inquisition than the numbers of Jews who lived there from before the Expulsion.

    #1699205

    Uncle Ben
    Participant

    Actually in Morocco the Spanish Jews maintained separate kehillot for hundreds of years and didn’t intermarry with the original Moroccan Jews

    #1699234

    Joseph
    Participant

    Why would they not marry each other?

    #1699242

    GAON
    Participant

    ujm,

    True. The Rambam is considered a Sephardi, he lived in Morroco and in Egypt, but was born in Spain. All Mizrachi/Sephardi throughout the Mideast accepted him as the leader, in Yemen they would add a special prayer for him, also see his famous letter Igros Teman/Shmad..

    #1699246

    Yabia Omer
    Participant

    Morocco had Toshavim, who were the original inhabitants, and the Megurashim, who came from Spain. I think the Halacha tended to follow that of the latter group

    #1699321

    Joseph
    Participant

    Yabia: Which halacha followed the Megurashim?

    #1699332

    Yabia Omer
    Participant

    תושבים החמירו יותר כמו הבית יוסף והמגורשים התירו נפיחה

    #1699469

    Not commenting
    Participant

    Yabia Omer עדות המזרח is Another way of saying Sephardic any middle Eastern country plus some outside ones like usbekistan, Spain ect. We ar all considered Sephardic עד כאן there is nothing to argue about it’s מציאות

    #1699470

    Not commenting
    Participant

    Also as I said earlier another מציאות is that we have much much better food and that’s another thing you can’t argue about!

    #1699478

    msig88
    Participant

    In Morocco, when the spanish Jews fled there, they were indeed labelled as megorashim, and the Moroccan local Jews were called toshavim. There was a lot of contention in the early years between each group and eventually for the most past the megorashim prevailed. These events were usually in the areas known as french morocco, which is the central down to southern morocco mostly to Fez, where the Rif was from. The communities in Spanish morocco, which is on the north coast of Morocco, were exclusively from Spain and kept a derivative of ladino as their language known as haketia. They didn’t really marry the toshavim, or as they called them “forasteros” meaning foreigners, as their minhagim seemed ‘foreign’. Once the megorashim exerted their influence over the most of the moroccan kehilla, spanish Moroccan jews had different slightly minhagim/ tunes/ foods (spanish Moroccans ate sweet foods) as they were undiluted or influenced by compromise with the toshavim.
    The main area of contention between the megorashim when they got to Morocco is to do with hechsher of an animal by checking the lungs with neficha, which the megorashim were Maykel on.

    Only in the most southern parts of Morocco did the megorashim influence not reach.

    It’s interesting to note that Maran in his hakdama to shulchan aruch writes that he is not coming to annul any minhag which was practised prior to the shulchan aruchs printing. The megorashim had been influenced through their chief rabbi, the Rosh, who they called Rabban. So some things when it comes to Halacha (especially in yore death) you find as a result, the Moroccans will hold like the rama and not the shulchan aruch. Furthermore the Sifrei Torah were not in boxes rather on atzei chaim like ashkenazim with the difference that the Sefer torah is wrapped with a cloth all along it, so that you never touch the klaf, as you can’t touch a bare Sefer torah.
    Another enactment from the megorashim was a restriction on marrying another wife, making a beracha on half hallel, saying anenu in amida in arvit/maariv on the night before taanit.

    Purim sameach

    #1699823

    GAON
    Participant

    msig,

    It seems like from an Halachik perspective, in most cases, the Toshvim simply accepted the Rambam’s psakim, whereas, Maran the Bes Yosef took the Rosh’s psakim in consideration.

    #1700658

    MDG
    Participant

    “Can I start eating kitniyos if I join?

    It might just make it worth it despite the extra selichos.”

    A Sephardic friend of mine said that Sephardim don’t say selichos, they Sing it.
    The whole selichot experience is different.

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