Judaism Is Not A Democracy!!

Home Forums Decaffeinated Coffee Judaism Is Not A Democracy!!

Viewing 21 posts - 1 through 21 (of 21 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #604293

    It’s amazing how many people think of themselves as having relevant personal opinions about anything hashkafic or halachic, especially when it comes to condemming systems and decisions set forth by gedolim. Pointing out cons of a system is one thing, saying that therefore the system should be changed – closer to reform than religious. Just because people get messed up by something doesn’t invalidate it or make the gedolim wrong. But it seems that every twenty something thinks his brilliant unerring daas is the greatest gift to klall yisroel, and that he is a bar pelugta with the top echelon of gedolim.

    #887837

    RebRY
    Member

    Mochoh You are I think first one I agree with here in the CR out of all the postes I have read here.

    #887838

    pcoz
    Member

    I only take superman as daas torah

    #887839

    Sam2
    Participant

    Mochoh: It’s a fine line to walk. A Talmid Chacham has to be Kashe K’barzel to be able to be Matzliach in learning. And if that means thinking that a certain Rishon or Acharon is completely wrong in their Havana of the Gemara, then you have to think that for a time. Otherwise you will never be able to learn properly because you will always be M’shubad to others’ ideas and you will never have proper Havana of the Torah. The trick is limiting that to its appropriate time and realizing when it’s necessary (which is much more often than people to like to admit) to say, “He is smarter than I am; therefore my opinion must be pushed aside.”

    #887840

    SpiderJerusalem
    Participant

    Judaism is a vacant monarchy in which certain leaders need to be reminded that no one has been anointed anything.

    #887841

    pcoz
    Member

    Reb Moshe argues on rashi and the meiri by saying it is impossible they wrote this / could have meant this

    #887842

    Sam2
    Participant

    pcoz: R’ Moshe does that often. It’s a bit troubling sometimes, actually. (See how the Tzitz Eliezer responded to R’ Moshe’s abortion T’shuva. He has some very, very harsh words in there for R’ Moshe’s willingness to do that.)

    #887843

    Englishman
    Member

    Sam2: Isn’t it chutzpadik for you to insinuate that Rav Moshe did something (or uses loshon) that is “troubling”?

    I ask respectfully.

    #887844

    far east
    Member

    The problem with this thread is that it’s irrelevant. It seems like your trying to make people hold exactly what you hold. But everyone knows Torah is emes, the question is how it’s interpreted, and that Is not the same for everyone. Just cause a person doesn’t follow your gadol doesn’t make him “reform”

    #887845

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Ironic.

    #887846

    pcoz
    Member

    Sam2 – Reb Chaim Ozer said about Reb Moshe and his brother – I have heard there are 2 brothers deep in Russia who learn torah as it was learned 100 years ago – the Netziv etc were not meshubad to the rishonim

    #887847

    yytz
    Participant

    “Someone who wants to develop original Torah insights may expound and innovate as much as he wants according to his level of mental attainment. The only condition is that he may not deduce any new law from insights based on expository interpretation (Drash) or mystical teachings (Sod).” (Sichos Haran #267)

    #887848

    Kozov
    Member

    Sam I dont see why you ever have to think a rishon or acharon is (completely!) wrong (though i see it done sometimes by emmese poskim (quite often with apparent hesitation and respect) but its not a proof for anybody else, even talmidei chachomim) you can always instead say i dont understand (that doesnt mean they are right though, they might be wrong) what hes saying and leave it at that without implying right or wrong and still follow your own line of thinking (unless you are being don din liatzmo (where in addition to other factors there is a hisarvus of pniyos and adam korov eitzel atzmo)). It makes a difference because first of all its quite likely that you are mistaken (kinire bchush) and its obviously important to give somebody who is much smarter and more knowledgeable than you especially when they took the effort of trying to be asuki shmaata aliba dihilchisa and obviously made thorough research as much as they could possibly do, because of their daiga of not being mateh the rabim the benefit of the doubt. Since that happens to be the case it also has the quality of anivus and bittul and somebody who doesnt think that way is not makir mikomo (and mikom hagdolim) and is a baal gaavah. If it seems to be an obvious and inconsequential distinction know that its actually very significant, because even if you would somehow taaneh either way is a true way to look at it, the fact is, we are talking about talmidei chachomim here who you have to approach with kovod, therefore surely in your speech and even in your thoughts this is the right approach.

    In your most recent post you even seem to backtrack a little yet you still said what you said in previous post.

    #887849

    Sam2
    Participant

    Englishman: I meant no disrespect. And yes, it troubles me greatly that I am troubled that R’ Moshe does that. But what can I do? I have to learn Torah, and when I learn R’ Moshe and see that he says that Rishonim just can’t say what they actually do say, I have no idea what to do. I can’t C”V disagree with any P’sak. But when I want to learn and find Amittah Shel Torah I am very troubled.

    (I can perfectly explain what R’ Moshe did and why he did it. He knew Kol Hatorah Kula and learned Ad Amittah Shel Torah and therefore knew that certain Shittos just could not exist in the Rishonim. So he says there must be a typo or misunderstanding somewhere. Because those Shittos would go against Amittah Shel Torah, therefore they can’t exist. But when I (or anyone else) is trying to learn and see that these Shittos do actually exist in the Kidvei Yad or are cited in other sources, I just don’t know what to do. The most famous example is the Sefer Hatziyuni. R’ Moshe says it must be a forgery because it says Apikorsus and attributes it to R’ Yehudah Hechassid. But the Sefer Hatziyuni was a well-accepted and often-quoted Kaballah Sefer for hundreds of years. And the Shittah of R’ Yehudah Hechassid that R’ Moshe said could not exist because it was Apikorsus is stated by or in the name of R’ Yehudah Hechassid in other Mekoros also. So I honestly have no idea what to do with such a Shittah. The Tzitz Eliezer addressed such a Derech very harshly. I am not the Tzitz Eliezer and therefore cannot say anything negative about it, but it does trouble me greatly. In fact, that fact that it troubles me so much is only because of the extreme Kavod I have for R’ Moshe. If most other Poskim would say such a thing I would probably just say he’s against the Rishonim and move on.)

    I hope that explains things. It was not at all C”V intended to be a Chutzpah towards R’ Moshe.

    Pcoz: That is true. He argues on Rishonim sometimes (albeit very rarely) and is perfectly allowed to. That’s not the issue here.

    #887850

    shlishi
    Member

    The Tzitz Eliezer is a big Talmid Chacham, but he is not in the league of Rav Moshe and the Gedolei Hador, and surely not of the previous generation(s).

    #887851

    557
    Participant

    The Tzitz Eliezer is a big Talmid Chacham, but he is not in the league of Rav Moshe and the Gedolei Hador, and surely not of the previous generation(s).

    Who decided/decides that? You?

    #887852

    Curiosity
    Participant

    Machoh Timcheh, if I’m not mistaken, you started this after you ranted on the “what people look for in shidduch dating” thread. Thus, I take it I’m included in what you said. I would have you know what I said is not my own opinion, but the hashkafa that I received from my Rosh Yeshiva, who is a tremendous talmid chacham and was a very close talmid of a gadol b’Yisroel who recently passed ZY”A.

    #887853

    Sam2
    Participant

    Shlishi: I don’t think it’s up for us to judge levels of Gedolim. He was respected by R’ Shlomo Zalman, R’ Mordechai Elyahu, and R’ Ovadia (at the very least) as a Posek of their caliber. Who are any of us to comment either for or against him.

    #887854

    shlishi
    Member

    Who decided Rav Moshe is a bigger posek than Rav Belsky? Or than the posek Rav Yankel Shmankel?

    We can compare “levels” – in fact, we need to in order to judge who is an authority in the first place! If you can’t comapre levels then how are you to know that someone is a godol? The fact that he is “accepted” as a godol only means that many people have judged his “level” to be that of a godol. But if you cannot compare levels, then these people have no right to accept him as a godol in the first place. And the same common sense that tells you so-and-so stands out among his peers making him an authority, tells you that certain so-and-so’s stand out even more. Or less.

    Part of knowing who to follow is to know who is greater. Godol mimenu b’chochma ubaminyan is an assessment that it legitimately made. And as Rav Shach writes – if you dont know who to follow, follow whoever is greater – and, he adds, you can of course tell who is greater.

    #887855

    pcoz
    Member

    Sam2 – to Reb Moshe it just could not be – so the rishon could not have said it becuase he could not argue on the rishon, that’s all. i.e. that is Reb Moshe’s deah regardless of the rishon, like it or lump it

    #887856

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    I’ll disagree.

    Limud HaTorah, by definition, is asking your Rabbonim to explain why P’sak is what it is. Only through “Riska D’oraysa” can we come up with a mehalch.

    As such, if someone asks “why” to be M’kanter, the OP is correct. However, a Rov (or gadol) is MECHUYAV to explain his p’sak to his talmidim (and everyone in Klal Yisroel is a talmid of the gedolim), so that they may learn from it.

    Torah he V’lilmod Ani Tzarich.

Viewing 21 posts - 1 through 21 (of 21 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.


Trending