January 24, 2011 2:34 pm at 2:34 pm #594439
This came up on one of the recent tznius threads, but I think its an overall important topic.
When you see someone walking down the street, doing something you consider wrong, why don’t you judge them l’kula instead of l’chumra? Why don’t you say “the absolute most lenient opinion ever holds XYZ, they probably hold by that” even if you think its the wrong way to hold?
An easy example is if you meet a woman on the street who’s skirt is mid knee. There are poskim that hold that’s ok. Granted, it may not be what YOUR posek holds, or even that you think its the right way to hold. You may think its too close to possible being over an issur.
Or if you see someone eating something from a hechsher you don’t eat. There are others (who fall within the realm of orthodoxy) who hold its an ok hechsher. Assume they hold by that.
I’m talking about in practical applications that don’t affect your specific life. So, if you are looking into shidduchim, it makes sense to be more “judgemental” of what you want in your family. But your neighbor walking down the street? And if your children ask you, tell them about the halachic views you keep.
I guess we try to be DLKZ in all areas of our lives, but we tend to judge others harshly in certain areas. Why judge l’chumra when you can judge l’kula?January 24, 2011 2:41 pm at 2:41 pm #732903PosterMember
Sometimes you are POSITIVE you know whats going on.January 24, 2011 2:50 pm at 2:50 pm #732904
I’m currently learning a mussar sefer which says,the rule for others is to be dan l’kaf z’chus.The mussar is for YOU.Don’t confuse the two!
I once put a Sholom Bayis article in my husband’s pajama drawer.
Suffice it to say:That doesn’t work.January 24, 2011 2:55 pm at 2:55 pm #732905rabbiofberlinParticipant
your question was answered two thousand years ago by Bais Hillel : “Koach dehetaira odif” To permit something is a better way to “pasken”. And, incidentally, your question does not even involve this. Hechserim are an individual thing and you should never question someone even if you don’t accept this hechser.January 24, 2011 2:57 pm at 2:57 pm #732906
I mean ex-husband.(no,that’s not WHY,sillies)January 24, 2011 3:09 pm at 3:09 pm #732907dunnoMember
Great idea.January 24, 2011 3:39 pm at 3:39 pm #732908
ROB, I agree. But I thought it was an example that people could relate to. Although, it would be harder to do if you saw someone eating a Hebrew National hotdog (which does shechita though from what I understand has many political issues surrounding it with some possible halachic issues).
Poster, there have been times where I thought I knew 100%, and turns out I was wrong. But even if I am right, why not judge them l’kula? What do you gain by judging l’chumra?January 24, 2011 3:43 pm at 3:43 pm #732909apushatayidParticipant
Not Likula or lichumra. Rather Likaf Zechus. .January 24, 2011 3:53 pm at 3:53 pm #732910mythoughtsParticipant
Why don’t we all just mind our own business.January 24, 2011 3:56 pm at 3:56 pm #732911gavra_at_workParticipant
One of the Gedolim of yesteryear (I forget whom) used to say that we don’t scream “Shabbos!” at cars because we think it might help, but only to reinforce our own beliefs.
I believe the same concept would apply here as well. People want to think that their way is “right” and don’t complain or judge to think what is right, but to support their own shittah.January 24, 2011 4:00 pm at 4:00 pm #732912
dunno–whose?January 24, 2011 7:21 pm at 7:21 pm #732913
APY, but then you are assuming they are doing something wrong. I am saying, assume they are falling within the bounds of halacha and you don’t need to be DLKZ.January 24, 2011 7:58 pm at 7:58 pm #732914aries2756Participant
If WE could only learn this and teach this to others, I am sure will will hasten the coming of Moshiach. Truly we are too harsh on other people and maybe we should be a little harsher on ourselves to keep from judging others. EVEN if you DO know the whole story because you only know what people allow to get out and NOT what goes on behind closed doors.
Sometimes you see someone and you may not know if they are on their way up or on their way down. Maybe she gained a few pounds and the skirt is riding up and it used to be longer or it came back from the cleaners and shrunk and she didn’t realize. These things do happen, do we ever think about it or do we automatically have an evil and bad thought in our mind?
We need to train ourselves to mind our own business and not be “got’s farzorger”. A pleasant smile and a warm greeting for those who go a madreigah further will make a good impression on another person. The more people who make good impressions on someone the more they will want to aspire to move up a madreigah. The more negative stares and comments the more they choose to be in your face.January 24, 2011 7:59 pm at 7:59 pm #732915dunnoMember
SJSinNYC’s. I answered when her post was the only one up still.January 25, 2011 1:52 am at 1:52 am #732916agittayidParticipant
By judging others harshly, one only hurts oneself. Negative stares and comments are not likely to change another’s behavior in a way that you would like, and may harm your own body. Among the body’s responses to anger are a rise in blood pressure, and the release of hormones and chemicals. Likewise, being pleasant to others has many positive effects on others and on yourself.January 25, 2011 4:38 am at 4:38 am #732917
SJSINyc, be’etzem you are right, unless one is positive that the other person is knowingly doing something clearly ossur. Also, sometimes, the fellow might be a shogeg, but one has to be a pretty bad guy to do such a shogeg.January 25, 2011 3:53 pm at 3:53 pm #732918apushatayidParticipant
SJS. Dan Likaf Zchus doesnt necessarily mean, they are wrong, but they have a good reason for doing it. If you see me eating a sandwhich at burger king, you dont have to assume i brown bagged it from home, you can assume it is a chazer treif sandwhich, but you should think that perhaps i am eating it because a medical conditions requires I eat something, anything, right now. In which case you are dan me likaf zchus, I am not doing something wrong, rather, in this situation I am doing what the torah says I must do and am eating this sandwhich which for me is muttar.January 25, 2011 5:10 pm at 5:10 pm #732919
mdd, how often are the people doing something truly ossur? Especially when you consider the more lenient opinions? I’m not sure what you mean by a b’shogeg person being awful.
APY, I understand what you mean now. Usually people are talking about DLKZ in seeing something “wrong” but assuming its ok.January 25, 2011 9:20 pm at 9:20 pm #732920
SJSinNYC, certain lenient opinions are beyond something one can rely on. Sometimes, some people do things just because they want to, and not because they have a certain lenient opinion in mind. Generally speaking, there are Halochic rules as to which opinions one can rely one. One can not just grab a lenient opinion from some place and go act on it.
A be’shogeg person being awful? How about a fellow who batters his wife, but he does not know it’s assur?January 25, 2011 11:23 pm at 11:23 pm #732921oomisParticipant
Let me preface this by saying I absolutely do NOT eat Hebrew National. That being said, I once knew a rov whose father was a (RELIABLE)mashgiach for HN and who stated that the product was kosher.January 26, 2011 1:58 pm at 1:58 pm #732922
mdd, when you are judging someone, pick the most lenient one (whether or not you think a person should rely on it). This way, you are viewing them within the bounds of halacha. Why not judge that someone is doing something RIGHT rather than WRONG when there is at least one opinion somewhere in the spectrum of Orthodoxy?
Thank you for explaining what you meant b’shogeg. I agree that is awful.January 26, 2011 2:28 pm at 2:28 pm #732923
I do pick the most lenient opinion, if somebody paskens that one can rely on it. Eventhough, sometimes I have ta’anos on the Rabbi for paskening so. Sometimes, I have ta’anos on the Rabbi and on the person — because I know they just want to mekal on it by hook or by crook. And sometimes these fellows would do it, even if nobody allowed it.January 26, 2011 3:59 pm at 3:59 pm #732924yitayningwutParticipant
Hebrew National is kosher according to my rav, political issues notwithstanding. It is only because we are noheg to be machmir on glatt that we don’t eat it, but as far as the hechsher goes my rav says it is reliable.January 27, 2011 1:48 am at 1:48 am #732925oomisParticipant
People tend to forget that the lenient opinion is still halachically correct. The fact that it is lenient does not make it incorrect.If it were, it would be an aveira, not a leniency. My Rov O”H who was a great chaver of Rav Moshe Z”TL, always said to me that ANYONE can be machmir on something, but it takes real Daas Torah to know when something is muttar.January 28, 2011 4:47 am at 4:47 am #732927
When I wrote “these fellows”, I did not mean to include Rabbis.
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