Jury duty

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  • #1209190
    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Understandable

    A Jew watching the dairy process ensures that things happen according to halacha.

    If G-d forbid anything was about to occur that would compromise the dairy product, the Jew would prevent it from occuring.

    The milk is certified kosher.

    ……

    So then does it not matter if another Jew is there in the court when a Jew is on trial because…. [fill in the blank reason]

    Maybe because it’s a secular court in the first place?

    So why participate in a treif environment if the results are going to be treif regardless?

    Dunno… trying to understand it.

    Thank you 🙂

    #1209191
    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    Joseph……..

    “A jury is charged with determining the guilt of the defendant.”

    ONLY in criminal trials.

    As an attorney I often deal with juries, BUT I don’t do criminal work. The juries in a civil trial determine whether a plaintiff has proven his/her case and is entitled to damages to be made whole. Guilt is not part of the process.

    #1209192
    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    Zahavasdad

    “Why would a lawyer want someone on a case who clearly doesnt want to be there?

    Arent there dismissals where both lawyers agree and it doesnt count against your juror challenges?”

    #1 The person who doesn’t want to be there may still give an impartial and fair hearing of the evidence and follow the judge’s charge to the jury.

    #1a that person may have some education that will benefit the jury in deliberations. E.G. an engineer may be able to explain tolerances, etc in a product liability action

    #2 It doesn’t matter if both lawyers agree to keep a juror off, if the juror is not excused for cause by the judge (in response to the lawyer’s request and reasoning) then the potential juror must be left out by a peremptory challenge…charged against the lawyer requesting it. Otherwise, 2 lawyers could decide between themselves to eliminate all Blacks, Jews, Women, etc,

    #1209193
    Joseph
    Participant

    In my experience at New York jury selections, the lawyers for the two sides go to the room with the potential jurors and question them jointly without the presence of any judge. Once the two lawyers agree to a panel of 12 the jury has been selected before any judge saw anything.

    #1209194
    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Maybe the room is bugged with cameras and the lawyers have earpieces that project the judge’s objections in their heads?

    #1209195
    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Why isn’t the jury a baker’s dozen?

    #1209196
    Lightbrite
    Participant

    CTLAWYER: How do judges not automatically favor someone with their same last name?

    Maybe not everyone gets all excited when someone else shares a last name. Some last names are also more common than others.

    Maybe that’s why I am not a judge; I would want to favor anyone with the same last name as mine. Even if this person was guilty, maybe I would tell the prison officials to offer the person an extra sandwich or something for Shabbos.

    #1209197
    yehudayona
    Participant

    Joseph, I haven’t served in a few years, but in my experience, the judge was there when the jurors were being questioned. This was in Queens.

    #1209198
    Lightbrite
    Participant

    About the baker’s dozen jury. I was picturing a fill-in juror in case another didn’t work out.

    However that might put the other jurors at risk of injury if someone wanted to take another juror out. Maybe also it would be an issue if that juror didn’t have anyone to talk to about the case.

    Either way I don’t think it would change the halachic nature of the question of being able to serve.

    #1209199
    iacisrmma
    Participant

    yehudayona: You are correct for criminal cases as jury selection has to be recorded for the official record in case of an appeal. Joseph ix correct for civil cases (at least in Kings County).

    #1209200
    Avi K
    Participant

    Yehudayona, if you google “Trial Juries: Exemptions, Terms of Service, and Payment” you will find a list of exemptions by jurisdiction. Some are very interesting. For example, Ohio explicitly exempts Amish. In any case, I concede that most jurisdictions do not explicitly exempt clergy but I would imagine that it would make getting a religious exemption easier.

    #1209201
    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    Joseph………..

    Jurisdictions have different rules. Here in CT Courts, and the Federal Courts as well, the judge is on the bench when the prospective jury panel is brought in. He introduces the case, him/herself, the attorneys, names of plaintiff, defendant, major witnesses and asks if any are known to the prospective jurors. If any raises a hand to say yes, the judge questions the juror candidate to determine whether it is a problem. The judge then lays out the timing of the trial: when it will begin, approximately how many days it will take, whether it might require sequestration. Again if any juror candidate raises a hand stating a conflict, the judges questions and makes a determination. Only then do the attorneys start the voir dire process. The judge often asks questions as well.

    Last year, I was called for jury duty. When my group was called before the judge, I did not know the Judge (it was her first case in this district) or attorneys (all were from out of state representing the two corporations in a civil suit). However the judge announced that the trial would start on Tuesday and take three days. I raised my hand to indicate a conflict. The judge asked why and I explained that I was representing a client in a case starting Wednesday in US District Court starting Wednesday. I was immediately excused. It is far easier to get another juror than reschedule a Federal case.

    #1209202
    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    Lightbrite………

    The size of a jury varies.

    In CT criminal juries are 12 people plus 2-3 alternates. The longer the case is supposed to take to try then the more likely there will be 3 alternates.

    Civil case juries are composed of 6 people plus 1-2 alternates.

    Favoring someone with the same last name.

    Here in CT, with the exception of Probate Judges, we do NOT elect judges they are appointed. The vetting process eliminates those who would have a predilection for bias.

    As for arranging for better treatment in prison. Wardens don’t take orders from trial judges. The Corrections Department is part of the Executive Branch, not Judicial.

    #1209203
    Joseph
    Participant

    “I raised my hand to indicate a conflict. The judge asked why and I explained that I was representing a client in a case starting Wednesday in US District Court starting Wednesday. I was immediately excused. It is far easier to get another juror than reschedule a Federal case.”

    Would a judge similarly be as accommodating in excusing a prospective juror who is a business executive, who will have a scheduling conflict between the pending trial and an upcoming major corporate international deal negotiations where he was the critical negotiator and the deal could fall apart with any postponment?

    #1209204
    iacisrmma
    Participant

    Joseph: it is up to the judge. Judge “A” may dismiss the juror while Judge “B” will not.

    #1209205
    Joseph
    Participant

    If “Judge A” would dismiss the attorney with a scheduling conflict, shouldn’t it follow that the same “Judge A” should also dismiss the business negotiator with a scheduling conflict?

    #1209206
    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    Joseph……….

    Judge A in State Court dismissed the attorney with a scheduled court date in Federal Court, because Judge A knows the Federal Judge B can send a US Marshal to take attorney into custody and deliver him to Federal Court bfor the scheduled trial.

    Rank has its privilege and in the pecking order a Federal Judge is higher than a State Trial Court Judge.

    BTW>>>>I have seen businessmen excused because of scheduling conflicts that involve numbers of people and large expenses. Last year, a trial judge moved the start date of a trial back 2 days so a juror could finish a business seminar (for which many tickets had been sold). In my experience, judges in smaller states tend to be more accommodating than in NY (I don’t practice there, but am admitted to the NYS Bar).

    #1209207
    Joseph
    Participant

    So far I’ve seen no disagreements from the attorneys here (or others) that someone seeking to get dismissed, will get dismissed by claiming to be predisposed to find guilt against those accused or being able to use facial expressions to determine the case or being biased against certain ethnicities.

    #1209208
    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    iacirsmma…….

    On a typical day, 300 potential jurors are called to appear in Bridgeport Superior Court (CT trial level court). About 220 will actually get called down to courtrooms to interviewed for juries. At 2PM those who have not been sent to courtrooms for questioning are dismissed and sent home. They can’t be called again for 3 years.

    I( have been called for state jury service 4 times in the past 13 years. I was excused twice, one time I was sent home as there were far more jurors available than needed to staff scheduled trials. The 4th time I was selected for a jury sitting in a criminal case. After the state put on its case the defendant changed his plea to guilty and cut a deal.

    #1209209
    yehudayona
    Participant

    The last case I was on was a civil case and a judge was there. Again, this was a few years ago and it was in Queens. It may have changed, and it may vary by jurisdiction even in the same state.

    #1209210
    Meno
    Participant

    Argh… I just got a jury duty questionnaire in the mail. I think they’re reading this thread

    #1209211
    Avi K
    Participant

    CTL, how were you allowed on a jury? My understanding was that lawyers do not want anyone who will exercise great influence over the other jurors because of his status and/or who knows too much.

    #1209212
    Joseph
    Participant

    In NY primary caregivers of children are exempted from jury service until the child reaches a certain age. Mailing back a copy of the child’s birth certificate is all that’s required.

    #1209213
    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    AviK

    Lawyers are on juries often in CT. The problem is that some lawyers will tell other jurors their understanding of the law instead of adhering to the judge’s charge to the jury. That said, most lawyers will abide by the rules of impartiality and follow the judge’s jury instructions to the letter.

    I don’t do criminal work, but have no problem with lawyers serving on juries in civil cases I’m involved with. I like highly educated jurors far more than those with minimal education who can’t really understand the testimony, exhibits and judge’s charge.

    #1209214
    Lightbrite
    Participant

    CTLAWYER: Have you ever asked a juror is he/she believes that “the Bible is the literal word of [Hashem]” (The Jury Expert)?

    From *How Attorneys Can Use Religion to be More Effective at Trial*^…

    If the juror answers affirmatively, he will most likely benefit the prosecution and not the defense.” (The Jury Expert^)

    ^The Jury Expert [ISSN: 1943-2208] is a publication of the The American Society of Trial Consultants)

    #1209215
    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    lightbrite>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    I keep posting that I do NOT do criminal work. So, the answer is NO. There is no such thing as prosecution in civil trials. The plaintiff (party bringing the suit) and defendant (party being sued) are not prosecutors.

    The loser doesn’t go to jail/prison or face fines, and can’t be found guilty

    #1209216
    Lightbrite
    Participant

    CTLAWYER: Thanks. Got it now.

    #1209217
    huju
    Participant

    A lot of posters seem to think jury duty is a chore best left to others. But consider this: suppose Jews were exempt – or excluded – from jury duty. That would not be good for the Jews.

    So stop looking for ways to weasel out of jury duty. If you have sincere halachic objections, so be it, and do what you have to do to comply with your beliefs. But if your objection is that you don’t want the inconvenience, or the loss of pay (with which I sympathize), please suck it up and participate in an important part of American democracy.

    I have been called several times but never was chosen to serve on a jury. (I like to think it’s because I look to smart.) The courts have done a good job of stream-lining the process and waste as little of your time as feasible.

    #1209218
    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Great point huju!

    Jury duty is a privilege.

    #1209219
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Alot of people dont get paid for more than a few days for Jury duty. for 3 days I dont care as I get paid, but after that it costs me money. Sorry but I cannot live on the $27 a day jury duty pays

    #1209220
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Someone I know told me that her (Yeshivish) parents volunteered for jury duty.

    Huju, I didn’t read all the posts here, but from the ones I had read, I thought the main discussion was regarding whether or not it’s permitted halachically. But again, I didn’t read all the posts.

    I wouldn’t have minded doing jury duty. My problems were that the first time I was called up, I had a major work conflict, and the second time, I had already moved back to Israel and didn’t even know about it.

    #1209221
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    ZD – when I was called up, I was told that I wouldn’t get paid at all (maybe some of the transportation costs, I don’t remember exactly), and it would have ending up meaning a tremendous loss of parnassah for me, since I was hired for a subbing job right around the dates when my jury duty was supposed to start, and it wouldn’t have been yashar for me to accept the subbing job knowing that I had jury duty then.

    However, Boruch Hashem, I did my research and figured out that I was unlikely to have to go in since I had a high number, so I told the person hiring me about the jury duty but I also told her that I thought it was highly unlikely that I would actually have to go in. She was a bit nervous, but she believed me and gave me the job anyhow, and Boruch Hashem, I turned out to be right!

    #1209222
    Joseph
    Participant

    lilmod, if your number had been called, would you have reported to jury duty?

    #1209223
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    I don’t think I would have had a choice.

    In terms of halachic issues (if that is why you are asking), I didn’t think there were any, since I spoke to several people about doing jury duty, and no one mentioned a halachic issue. In fact, one person told me that her parents volunteered for jury duty. I know her parents – her father taught me, and he was my sister’s B.Y. high school principal, so while he’s not a poseik, he is someone whom I would trust that if he did it, there probably was no halachic problem with it.

    And I think there were other people who told me they did it. It is even very possible that I asked a sheilah, but I don’t remember anymore.

    I did try to get out of it but they didn’t accept it.

    If I hadn’t asked a sheilah initially, I probably would have asked if I were called up l’maaseh. It is possible that the reason I didn’t ask was because I figured out that I wouldn’t be called up anyhow. I no longer remember all my thought processes at the time.

    #1209224
    Lightbrite
    Participant

    With Hashgacha Pratis, are we permitted to speculate what would have happened or what we would have done?

    #1209225
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    There is no problem with talking about what we were planning to do in a certain situation or even about what we think we would have done.

    That is not a contradiction to Hashgacha Pratis. I am talking about what I would have done in a particular situation. How does that contradict Hashgacha Pratis?

    #1209226
    Avi K
    Participant

    CTL, the more highly educated the jurors the less you can engage in histrionics when neither the law nor justice is on your side. LOL BTW, just out of curiosity, what do you do if a Jew comes to you wanting to sue another Jew? I heard that once a frum judge rebuked two Chassidim for not going to a bet din.

    #1209227
    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Meno: Lol! How exciting for you. Yay you get to make a kiddush Hashem 🙂

    #1209228
    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    AviK

    My specialty is family law, wills, trusts and estates and do a small amount of contract/business law, zoning, real estate. By this stage in my life much if the other work is done by juniors in my firm, including 2 full time non-Jews.

    I don’t take Jewish clients for divorce unless they agree to go through the Get process first. My wills, trust and estates bulk of the business almost never has lawsuits, and then generally one side is not Jewish (such as suing a bank, investment firm, etc.

    My contract business is wholly corporate (publicly held corporations) so the Bet Din is not an issue.

    We don’t do any personal injury cases which would be the bulk of individual suing individual.

    But, if Chaim Yankel came to our office and wanted to sue Joe Schmoe because Chaim thinks Joe violated the terms of a personal services contract, then I would have an initial free of charge meeting, suggest a meeting to try and work it out, then if that was refused, suggest he consider a Bet Din. I then would reject the case as something I was not interested in handling as it was outside the focus of my current opractice.

    #1209229
    Avi K
    Participant

    CTL, in the case of Jews the wills may not be valid halachically. In such a case there might be a problem a gezel. there might also be an issue of ribbit regarding estate planning. Having non-Jewish juniors do it is not a solution, especially if they are your employees as there might be a rabbinic prohibition of amira l’akum (this does not only apply to Shabbat).

    #1209230
    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Is it just me or did anyone ask CTLAWYER if he consulted a rav about his business and everything is legit?

    Because it’s possible that CTLAWYER did not give us all the details needed to posken whether or not he is conducting his business halachically.

    CTLAWYER said, “My specialty is family law, wills, trusts and estates and do a small amount of contract/business law, zoning, real estate. By this stage in my life much if the other work is done by juniors in my firm, including 2 full time non-Jews.”

    Sounds like he said that juniors do a lot of the other work is done by his firm, now that he is at this [higher] stage of his career, two of which happen to be non-Jewish lawyers.

    I don’t see where CTLAWYER said that he assigned work to the non-Jewish lawyers as a resolution to halachic barriers.

    ….Is it just me?

    This is a pretty odd post. Are you accusing him of something? Are you implying that he owes us information? Are you implying that he was paskening for others without permission? If you have a question for him, ask. But rallying the room for…what?

    #1209231
    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    AviK……….

    You make problems that don’t exist in my practice. I live in small town America and by far the vast majority of my business (95%+) is with non-Jews. By the time I’m dealing with the will of a deceased Jew it is far too late to consider the question of whether or not it is halachic. The questions before a member of the bar are about it’s validity and legality according to the laws of the state.

    My juniors are not employees, they are independent contractors who rent desk space and in exchange for use of the office, secretarial and paralegal staff, supplies and utilities pay us a percentage of their billings. I do not charge them a referral fee for cases I send their way. They do types of work I don’t care to do and it is a service to our clients to have this arrangement.

    For example: the grandson of a trust client gets a speeding ticket and needs to be represented in court…not something that I or my family members get involved with…have the juniors handle it and Trust client is happy not to have to search for another attorney. We don’t touch Personal Injury cases. A divorce client has a slip and fall or car accident and calls us, the only attorneys he/she has used as an adult…again the juniors may handle it (if they feel capable and want the case…sometimes they don’t want to finance the costs of a PI case) and refer the case to a specialist.

    #1209232
    Lightbrite
    Participant

    “This is a pretty odd post. Are you accusing him of something? Are you implying that he owes us information? Are you implying that he was paskening for others without permission? If you have a question for him, ask. But rallying the room for…what?”

    Mod: I was saying that imho, Avi K was telling CTLAWYER that his business could have halachic issues.

    Please see:

    “CTL, in the case of Jews the wills may not be valid halachically. In such a case there might be a problem a gezel. there might also be an issue of ribbit regarding estate planning. Having non-Jewish juniors do it is not a solution, especially if they are your employees as there might be a rabbinic prohibition of amira l’akum (this does not only apply to Shabbat).” (Avi K)

    And I was saying…

    Is it just me or was this out of nowhere and based on assumptions.

    I guess it wasn’t just me, and CTLAWYER stepped in. He didn’t owe us anything.

    I don’t understand how it was an odd post. I didn’t feel right about directly countering Avi K’s post. Maybe I missed something. That’s why I asked. It would give Avi K a chance to re-evaluate his words. I didn’t want to disrespect him.

    Instead, I hoped that he would reread where he was coming from.

    Or, maybe someone would say, “Hey LB, Avi K got that info from CTLAWYER’s other posts.” —I’ve only been here a few months. So maybe other posters, including Avi K, had more information that would justify those claims/speculations against CTLAWYER’s practice.

    Thanks for asking

    #1209233
    Avi K
    Participant

    CTL, we live to make problems. Someone told me that that is the difference between a rosh yeshiva and a rav. The former makes problems and the latter solves them. BTW, you might be interested in a series on the halachic aspects of law practice on the YU site by a rav named Mordechai Torczyner even if none of the pertain to your practice – I presume that you do not have much occasion to deal with bulls that gore cows either).

    Lightbrite, I am not accusing him of anything. He mentioned it in connection with the halachic implications of his practice so I commented here. As I do not even know who he is or even exactly where he lives so I have no other forum.

    #1209234
    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    AviK………..

    Maybe you live to make problems, my life’s career has been to help people avoid them. If a problem presents itself I try to help resolve it using the American legal system.

    You seem to have nothing better to do than throw accusations at people you don’t know and question their ethics and modus operandi. That is reprehensible and a sign of your immaturity.

    In a 40 year legal and business career (never mind elected office) I have chewed up and spit out many nudniks such as yourself who think they are witty, but are truly offensive.

    I don’t need you to suggest reading material. As the adage goes: Those who can do; those who can’t teach.

    BTW>>>> you seemed to ignore the fact I practice in small town America. There are many farms still in my area and claims still are brought about bulls who gore cows.

    BUT>>>>Most offensive is your tone and determination. I don’t have to answer to you, and defend myself to CR friends because of your dreadful posts. Clients pay me $500 per hour for my time and advice. Your ‘free consultation’ is long over. You will be called out on posts that contain misinformation, but your questions will be ignored. In other words get a life that excludes annoying me.

    #1209235
    Lightbrite
    Participant

    CTLAWYER +infinity

    #1209236
    Avi K
    Participant

    CTL, I was not questioning anyone’s ethics. I was merely asking questions for my edification. You cannot know my tone as there is no tone in typing. I am sorry if you were offended.

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