Kallah Taking Chosson’s Last Name Upon Marriage- Jewish or Gentile?

Home Forums Simchas Kallah Taking Chosson’s Last Name Upon Marriage- Jewish or Gentile?

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  • #1450879

    🐵 ⌨ Gamanit
    Participant

    Is there a mekor of the Kallah to take her husband’s last name upon marriage? Or is it something that carried over the us from the goyim?

    My preliminary understanding is that we didn’t do this 100 years ago. It’s a foreign idea that creeped into our community. But I’m ready to be corrected with sources if mistaken. Would taking my chosson’s last name be considered copying from the x-tians?

    #1450906

    Joseph
    Participant

    The whole last name concept, from A to Z, is goyish. Yidden, both him and her, traditionally never had a last name in the first place.

    His name is Reuven ben Yaakov and her name is Dina bas Yaakov. You’ll never hear anyone being called up to the Torah by a last name. Even today. Similarly, since you asked about marriage, the kesuba will never have for him or for her (or for the eidem) any last name.

    #1450916

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Gentiles originated with the last names, but a married woman goes from being called Bas —— to Eishes ——.

    #1450927

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    The whole last name concept, from A to Z, is goyish. Yidden, both him and her, traditionally never had a last name in the first place.

    So is it chukas ha’akum? Should I ask people to start calling me just plain Daas? Or maybe Daas Ben Ploni (my father is makpid that I don’t reveal his screen name).

    #1450928

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    We didn’t do this 100 years ago? This is so common that your question is laughable. The wife of the Chazon Ish Tzatzal was known as Reb. Karelitz (married in Europe). Was the daughter of R’ Eliyashiv known as Reb. Batsheva Eliyashiv or Reb. Batsheva Kanievsky A”H? Did R’ Moshe Feinstein’s daughters keep their maiden name or were they known as Reb Shisgal and Reb. Tendler? The wife of R’ Aharon Kotler was known as Reb. Meltzer or Reb. Kotler (married in Europe)? In the almost 80 years that they were married was Reb. Scheinberg called Reb. Herman?

    #1450938

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Iacisrmma, those are all within the last 100 years.

    #1450939

    🐵 ⌨ Gamanit
    Participant

    sorry; I’m half asleep here (simcha preps are quite tiring :). I meant to write 1,000

    #1450942

    akuperma
    Participant

    Most Jews, and all Ashkenazim, did not use inherited surnames until the 19th century. A man’s legal names was “Piloni ben Piloni” and a woman’s name was “Pilonis bas Pilonis”. While people often used additional names, they were not necessarily inherited. The goyim required us to use surnames in the 19th century to facilitate conscription, tax collection and assimilation. They initially forgot to require that they be inherited on the male line and it wasn’t uncommon for a man to adopt the wife’s family name (especially if he was moving in with her family and supported by them, as was common). Until recently, Dina Malchusa Dina required a woman to use her husband’s surname, reflecting various Christian legal traditions, but that is often not the case.

    There is certainly no halachic requirement for a woman to adopt her husband’s surname, but it is convenient to do so.

    #1450948

    AviLondon
    Participant

    Surnames for Jews became mandatory in most countries over the past 200 years. Prior to that, a yid was Moshe ben Yaakov, unless he had a “nickname” (e.g. Schneider, Bleier, Marmorstein, Schechter) due to his profession. When surnames were imposed, the officials were very nasty and had to be bribed not to give offensive names: Grossnass, Schwartzkopf, Katz. The last name was not as bad as the goyim thought as it meant – to us – Kohen Tzedek.
    There are some Sefardim who call up by the family name. I have seen this in Moroccan and Algerian shuls (i.e. that follow those minhogim).
    What would be interesting is whether, al pi halocho, the fact that a chosson is koneh his kalloh also gives him the right to change her last name to his. Has anyone come across this?

    #1450949

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    joseph: I disagree. I have personally seen a number of Mesadrei Kiddushim at various chasunahs ask for the eidem to include their last name (i.e. Yaakov Ben Yitzchok Haleivi Segal Eid).

    #1450952

    Joseph
    Participant

    ” A man’s legal names was “Piloni ben Piloni” and a woman’s name was “Pilonis bas Pilonis”.”

    A woman’s legal name is Pilonis bas Piloni (not bas Pilonis.)

    #1450956

    AviLondon
    Participant

    I forgot to add that sometimes a man took his wife’s first name and made it into a surname – Reina became Reines. This happened in our family over 200 years ago, although I don’t have that surname. But this was before surnames were legally required.

    #1450958

    🐵 ⌨ Gamanit
    Participant

    I forgot to add that sometimes a man took his wife’s first name and made it into a surname – Reina became Reines. This happened in our family over 200 years ago, although I don’t have that surname. But this was before surnames were legally required.

    Wasn’t it a son taking his mother’s first name as his last name in these cases?

    #1450962

    Joseph
    Participant

    a married woman goes from being called Bas —— to Eishes ——.

    So we see that a Jewish woman, upon marriage, her name changes from that of her father’s to that of her new husband’s.

    #1451274

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    That’s not a name change, it’s the addition of a new title.

    #1451295

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    There is a growing trend today, even among frum families, for the woman to retain her name or use a hyphenated name, especially among women who pursue both families and a professional career. As another poster noted, there is NOTHING in hallacha that mandates adopting a husband’s name, even though that is the norm today among both yidden and goyim.

    #1451297

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    The whole last name concept, from A to Z, is goyish. Yidden, both him and her, traditionally never had a last name in the first place.

    No one’s stopping you from changing your last name to “Ben Moshe” (or whatever your father’s name is).

    The Wolf

    #1451298

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    So we see that a Jewish woman, upon marriage, her name changes from that of her father’s to that of her new husband’s.

    Except that it doesn’t, of course. She’s still referred to as “Bas [father’s name]” for anything that needs doing.

    The Wolf

    #1451326

    Solaro
    Participant

    Gittin 87a
    The Mishnah talks about חניכתו in a גט
    רש״י says this means שם לויי של משפחה כולה
    Sounds like there was some sort of last names then…

    #1451322

    mentsch1
    Participant

    AviL
    Just googled shwartzkopf
    Germanic in origin dating back at least to 16 century Germans. Doesn’t seem to be derogatory or Jewish

    #1451328

    5ish
    Participant

    @ Joseph I have seen on kesubos that the signatures say ploni bar ploni mimishpachas lastname.

    #1451335

    shoyteh
    Participant

    The Tora Temimah in Parshas Shemos (Vayikach es Bas Levi) brings the Zohar: Before a marriage sge is called “Bas Ploni after marriage, eishes ploni”. The idea of being “called” bas ploni is equivelant to a last name as we find Moshe was called “ben Amram” as a pejorative by his detractors much like you owuld call someone by their last name to belittle them.

    #1451378

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    How would you call someone by their last name to belittle them?

    #1451384

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    To RebYIdd23

    Obvious: POTUS

    #1451527

    AviLondon
    Participant

    I myself was asked in Antwerp to sign a kesuboh with my name plony ben plony and add my surname.

    #1451835

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    I myself was asked in Antwerp to sign a kesuboh with my name plony ben plony and add my surname.

    I was a witness for tenaim recently at a wedding in Brooklyn. I was specifically instructed to sign the sh’tar tenaim with my surname.

    The Wolf

    #1470630

    catch yourself
    Participant

    Rav Elyashiv’s father took his wife’s surname (Elyashiv was the surname of the Leshem, Rav Elyashiv’s maternal grandfather).

    #1470626

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    There is nothing wrong with it tying the wife to the husband. It helps against adultery.

    #1471387

    🐵 ⌨ Gamanit
    Participant

    laskern- how’s that?

    #1471391

    Avi K
    Participant

    Some Jews already had family names in Chazal’s time. See, for example, Sukka 38a. See also Bartenura on Gittin 9:8 d”h chanichato. IMHO, a woman should take her husband’s as she joins his community.

    #1471398

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    I see the opposite in the Zohar she is either tied to the father before marriage or to the husband after marriage through her surname.

    #1471406

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    To Laskern:

    It prevents adultery because if a woman is known in the community to have the last name of her husband, everyone will know he is married to that woman and no other woman wiill be interested in engaging in any intitmate relationship with him.

    #1471434

    zaltzvasser
    Participant

    What about the Chashmona’im? Wasn’t that kind of like a last name?

    #1471445

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    A man will not have anything to do with a woman having another man’s surname as long we apply the prefix Mrs.

    #1471759

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    A man will not have anything to do with a woman having another man’s surname as long we apply the prefix Mrs.

    That’s not true. I know quite a few men whose wives did not take their last name. In fact, when I married Eeees, we discussed the matter and I told her that I would not mind if she wanted to keep her maiden name. She did not, but had she done so, that would have been fine with me.

    The Wolf

    #1471791

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Wolf, why did she want to keep her maiden name?

    #1471798

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Wolf, why did she want to keep her maiden name?

    No. Either you misunderstood or I was not clear.

    She did not want to and in the end did not. But had she wanted to, it would have been fine with me – and I would not have required any explanation or reason.

    The Wolf

    #1471796

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    My wife a”h kept her maiden name as a middle name,

    #1471794

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    It is true that the Meharam Shick called himself by this last name for the acronym שם ישראל קודש.

    #1471827

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The מהרשא named himself Aidles after his mother in law who supported him.

    #1471833

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    By the Rebbes sometimes they name themselves after the son of the mother, if they come from a great yichus on her side.

    #1471865

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Sorry, Wolf I misunderstood. You were clear.

    #1471939

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Sorry, Wolf I misunderstood. You were clear.

    No problem. Heaven knows that I’ve done that quite often. If I had a dollar for every sentence I misread, I’d be a very rich wolf indeed. 🙂

    The Wolf

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