Kapparos

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  • #1101121
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    When I was in yeshiva, there as an altah bochur who every year by kapparos would write a check for $2000 or $3000 dollars, and he would take the check and do kapparos with it.

    And then, he would take the check, and rip it into shreds, and say it was his kapparah.

    #1101122
    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    ZD,

    Your outrage and using that to condemn kapporos is what is wrong. So this fellow lost his cool and made obscene gesture. Ok. He is a teenager working bein hazmanim. Not a nice thing, but nowhere near the chilul Hashemite you are making it not nearly as terrible as the anti kapporos agitators make it. And you have gleefully teamed up with them.

    You want to know what this is? It’s pure Pallywood. And that’s what you are so enamored of.

    To Syag, Shtika is a fine Mida. No one said what this boy did was nice, however it was certainly provoked. The agitators do not stand nicely by. They only had the camera pointed one way. It is sad that there could possibly be Jews here who call themselves from who are campaigning against and minhag Yisroel that has been practiced for many centuries. But you are sooo enlightened.

    Nebach.

    #1101123
    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Avian psychology is complex.

    #1101124
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    wow – I guess i was wrong about your being intelligent and wanting to defend and represent Hashem. Nothing in your answer even applied to my comments, which means you were just ticked off, as opposed to thoughtful in your response. enlightened about what? about telling you that you should act like a mentsch? Enlightened about telling you that expecting a frum teenage yid to behave like one EVEN when facing jerks? Enlightened because I thought that you actually cared about what halacha dictates our behavior should be, which doesn’t include treating someone like dirt because you can’t figure him out?

    do you think that because i said a teenager on bain hazmanim (tho it isn’t yet) is still representing Gd and has NO business sticking up his finger at ANYONE EVER that that means I support PETA? how crooked is that straight line?

    If you think it is EVER okay for a yid to act like that regardless of his age, time of year or who the heck he is addressing – all the more so if it is anti-Torah freaks, then you are about as krum as they get.

    Enjoy your yom kippur. A little time off the computer might be healthy.

    #1101125
    gofish
    Member

    I just passed by the site where they are protesting again. Try enduring an hour straight of manic yelling, with twenty people shrieking “shame on you!” Without pause, while you’re a teenager trying to do possibly your first real job, and then we’ll talk.

    Though tonight, one fellow came up with an ingenious solution; he put on a lively chassidic song that drowned out the protestors and had every frum male there dancing. What a sight!

    #1101126
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    gofish – we obviously have set very different standards of behavior for ourselves and our teenagers. According to Nisht that means I am a PETA supporter but really it just means that if it isn’t inside, it doesn’t come outside.

    I have boys who have been in situations that have definitely brought them to a point where that would have gone thru their head – that’s not the same as being capable of treating someone like that. If you can’t see the difference, i cant make you see it. but your second paragraph answered your first, that fellow really was smart, and his behavior is a lot closer to what is expected from us as Jews. If you are more likely to flip a finger up then turn on a tape – find a different job. I know I am more likely of the former so I don’t even read about these stories let alone show up at the locations.

    #1101127
    gofish
    Member

    The point of my post was to show how, while our instinctive reaction may be to condemn this boy, many of us would lose our composure momentarily as well. Yes, it’s wrong, but it takes exemplary self control to ignore people yelling at you for an hour straight. Before being so harsh and self righteously preaching, we should just ask ourselves “what would I have done in the same situation?”

    A gmar chasima tova. May we all merit to have Hashem judge us leniently for our faults, and may we all emerge zakai badin, ready to face a wonderful year of redemption. Have a beautiful Yom Kippur!

    #1101128
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    you are absolutely correct, and i thought i was pretty clear that i was not judging the boy. i was “judging” an adult who is accepting of the behavior. Our job is to refrain from ever judging a person and always to pt ourself in their shoes, but at the same time, we should not be lenient with the behaviors, our values or our expectations. My kids (and much moreso myself) are always messing up, making poor choices and acting inappropriately. I will never tell them, nor will they have the ignorance to think that bad behavior is okay because someone deserved it. it isn’t okay, and we brush ourselves off and shoot for a better outcome next time. But those behaviors need to be accepted for what they are, not brushed off because it was directed at someone who “deserved it”.

    and as you yourself see, self righteously preaching sometimes has its place, tho there was no self righteousness involved.

    #1101129
    Sam2
    Participant

    nisht: I’m disappointed in myself also. I have to remember, but someone quoted that the chicken should Davka go to Tzedaka. I apologize for thinking of the wrong one.

    The Minhag isn’t that long-standing, by the way. It started well after Rashi’s time (see the Rashi I quoted as the second comment in this thread). The Mechaber calls it a Minhag Shel Shtus (before later printers edited it to not be mean to the Ashkenazim). It had major questions on it to begin with (which Pashtus is we answered because Poskim for the most part defend it, not scream at it) and the fact that a huge factor of Tza’ar Ba’alei Chayim is now included should really matter to us.

    #1101130
    Josh31
    Participant

    “Did they wave the cow over the head in the Bais Hamikdash?”

    – The 2 Shelamin sheep with the 2 Loaves on Shavuous were waved while alive, but not over the head.

    With Kapparos the actual slaughter (which is an integral part of the ritual) is the more possible “Kodashim BaChutz” (severe prohibition of slaughtering or burning sacrificial animals outside the Azara – Temple courtyard) issue. But again, the severe violation does not apply to species that can never be accepted in the Temple as offerings.

    Some may argue that one of the reasons chickens were completely “frozen out” from the Temple service was to allow their future use in Kapparos.

    Sometimes Minhagim have had to be discontinued due to pressure or concerns from the “outside world”. The practice of over turning beds as a mourning practice – mentioned in the Gemara is an example.

    #1101131
    Joseph
    Participant

    2,000 years ago today’s anti kapporos wackos would have been protesting the animal cruelty of kapporos on the mizbeach.

    #1101132
    DaMoshe
    Participant

    Last night, I saw a news story that was run by a NY news site on Yom Kippur about kapparos. It showed videos of the chickens being slaughtered, then dumped into garbage bags. The garbage bags sat out in the sun without refrigeration for hours – often overnight. The next day, many of the garbage bags, without even being looked at, were just thrown into the garbage truck when it came to do the regular pickup. The people involved in the kapparos helped the workers get the bags into the truck.

    Is this really what we want to be doing? As usual, I did kapparos with money this year. Immediately after, I donated money to tzedakah. Now I know that the money I gave is going straight to tzedakah, and not to line the pockets of some unscrupulous people.

    #1101133
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    How do you know where the profits from the kapparos went to, and how do you know that the tzedakah you gave to is run by scrupulous people?

    I think next year for the seudah hamafsekes I’m going to eat money instead of chicken.

    #1101134
    Joseph
    Participant

    DM: FWIW, the organizers of the center in the news story you’re referring to, on the bottom of their posters advertising their location, write “Long live the Rebbe King Moshiach forever and ever”.

    #1101135
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Giving Money lets the poor choose what they need to spend on better. Tomche Shabbos only gives bare basics (I used to deliver sometimes for them) but families especially with children need more like Milk, Fruits and Veggies which Tomche Shabbos generally doesnt give

    #1101136
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    ZD, the point of kapparos isn’t tzeddakah. The point is nefesh tachas nefesh.

    #1101137
    flatbusher
    Participant

    At the most it’s symbolic. If it truly transfers your sin to the chicken, then why bother davening on Yom Kippur? Without going inside a chicken’s head, how can anyone know whether the chicken has tzaar or not from the process of kapporos?

    #1101138
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    DY. That might be true, However most people think thats its for tzdekah is its almost always advertised that way so its not far fetched that most people think its for Tzedkah and not Nefesh Tachas Nefesh.

    I am not sure as many people would do it with a chicken if they thought the chicken would get thrown out and they would use money so it goes for Tzdekah instead

    #1101139
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Flatbusher, are you a master of Chassidus and Kabbalah that you can say that with such authority?

    The fact that it doesn’t completely absolve one of his sins is undisputed, but to therefore claim it has no utility whatsoever is an unfounded stretch.

    If I had to put a rational spin on it, I would say that the fact that we acknowledge that we deserve the chicken’s fate is itself a form of viduy and brings hirhurei teshuvah. I wouldn’t claim to know what deeper meaning it has, but won’t deny such a possibility out of ignorance.

    Why would we make up our own definition of tzaar baalei chaim when there already are halachic parameters for it?

    ZD, it says nefesh tachas nefesh right there in the machzor. Tzeddakah is a beautiful add on, and has become a part of the minhag, but who says the profits are not going to tzeddakah?

    #1101140
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    The publically post many times (At least the ones Ive seen) that the chickens are going to tzdekah. The video published showed the chickens getting thrown out.

    I dont know what a live chicken costs vs how much they sell each kapporah, but I am guessing its about $5 a chicken, or so . its not alot of money. $18 pure Tzdekah could do alot more

    #1101141
    flatbusher
    Participant

    I don’t have to be an expert, but it doesn’t supplant davening. And your snide comment so soon after Yom Kippur means maybe you need another chicken

    #1101142
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    ZD:

    For you to have a tayna, you would need to know that the same organization is advertising that the actual chickens are going to be schechted and given to tzeddaka, yet the default is to throw them way. If it’s either not the same organization, or they try to give away the kosher chickens and the ones you saw discarded were the neveilos and treifos, then there is no fraud going on.

    Saying there are more efficient uses of tzeddakah money is misguided, when, as I said, the tzeddakah aspect is not the main thrust of kapparos.

    #1101143
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Flatbusher:

    Nobody but you said it supplants davening.

    The fact that you feel it’s okay to attack a minhag Yisroel on baseless grounds, when you admit that you’re not an expert, should perhaps require a chicken farm.

    #1101144
    flatbusher
    Participant

    Just wanted to add, isn’t tashlich also supposed to cast your sins away? How does it differ from Kapporos with a chicken?

    #1101145
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I don’t know, aren’t we davening that Hashem should cast away our aveiros?

    #1101146
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Dy

    “Why would we make up our own definition of tzaar baalei chaim when there already are halachic parameters for it?”

    Pardon my ignorance but do the parameters not include not feeding the chickens and not housing them properly?

    #1101147
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Ubiquitin, you’re correct that those could be tzaar baalei chaim (I don’t know to what extent that happens. Several people have commented that they have not observed any cruelty, but I don’t think it never goes on).

    I was responding to Flatbusher’s comment, “Without going inside a chicken’s head, how can anyone know whether the chicken has tzaar or not from the process of kapporos?”.

    Tzaar baalei chaim is not about guessing what might be going through a chicken’s head.

    #1101148
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Pardon my ignorance but do the parameters not include not feeding the chickens and not housing them properly?

    Who doesn’t feed the chickens? I’ve seen them feeding the chickens. You think because they aren’t constantly being fed whenever you walk by that they aren’t being fed? Are you constantly eating? Do you believe every blood libel that is thrown at us by the anti-semites?

    Shame on you.

    #1101149
    Chortkov
    Participant

    DaasYochid – You are right, although children have been getting the wrong chinuch regarding this.

    #Cos Hippapotomissus and hippapotomisters

    have hippapoto-feelings too…

    #1101150
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Do you ever thing a Minhag Yisreol should be recinded for any reason?

    #1101151
    Joseph
    Participant

    No.

    #1101152
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    This has nothing to do with rescinding a minhag Yisroel. It has to do with making sure you’re m’kayem it in a way which doesn’t violate tzaar baalei chaim.

    #1101153
    apushatayid
    Participant

    “tzaar baalei chaim”

    Speaking of which, people are at the very least on the level of baalei chaim and should be treated at a minimum at the same level as these baalei chayim. I live down the block from a “kapporos center” (how commercial does that sound!) and for a week the entire block had to suffer from the horrible stench of chickens as well as the noise made by the chickens early in the mornings, as well as chicken poop and chicken feathers all over the block as some felt it would be more exciting to bring the chickens down the block to their cars (or more accurately the sidewalks in front of our homes)and we had to deal with chicken poop and feathers in front of our homes. The kapporos center packed up and now there is an empty lot covered in chicken poop, feather and blood where it dripped and nobody taking responsibility to clean it up. The flies and other insects are certainly having a good time. I guess someone had those baalei chayim im mind when they left behind the mess.

    #1101154
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    By the way, I mentioned that I bring them home and give them food. This year, however, I mentioned something about feeding them to my brother while the worker was near us. He said, oh you want to feed them? He brought over a nearly empty bag of chicken feed and poured generously into the boxes.

    #1101155
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    And, there is no mention in the Siddur/Machzor of transferring sins to the animal or money. Is says ?? ??? ??, ?? ????? ??. And this Minhag, in one form or another is thousands of years old.

    Tashlich is about invoking Hashem’s Middah of ?????? ??????? ?? ?? ??????. To ask why we Daven after doing that is like wondering why we fast in Yom Kippur after saying Slichos.

    #1101156
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    popa

    “Who doesn’t feed the chickens?”

    Many/most of the kapporos centers Ive seen Boro park have not (though I havent been by in the past few years so maybe this has improved though from some of the troubling footage Ive seen this does not seem to have improved, though admittedly the footage has been filmed by antisemites so I cant be sure of its veracity).

    ” I’ve seen them feeding the chickens.”

    mazel tov

    ” You think because they aren’t constantly being fed whenever you walk by that they aren’t being fed?”

    no I think because after years of asking those running if and how much the chickens are fed, and thenm saying its just a few days and feeding would be cost prohibtive.

    ” Are you constantly eating?”

    No

    ” Do you believe every blood libel that is thrown at us by the anti-semites?”

    No.

    #1101157
    Sam2
    Participant

    HaLeivi: It is not thousands of years old. It was clearly very different in the times of Rashi.

    DY: I don’t need to be an expert in Kaballah. The Mechaber called it a Shtus. I’m not against doing it per se because it is an old Minhag, but I do think the way it is currently done has to be stopped.

    #1101158
    my own kind of jew
    Participant

    I suppose I am the liberal, bleeding-heart, who thinks he has more compassion then God/Torah/Chazal…

    who doesn’t think it’s very nice to the chicken to swing it over and around in the first place, and considering money seems to be a perfectly acceptable Kapparos thing, that we shouldn’t do it at all (with a chicken).

    #1101159
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Who says money is perfectly acceptable? The minhag is with a chicken.

    And being a bleeding heart liberal is the least of the problems if you think you have more compassion than the Torah.

    #1101160
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    who doesn’t think it’s very nice to the chicken to swing it over and around in the first place

    Gimme break. Nobody is “swinging it over and around.” If you can’t make your point without mischaracterizing the other side, it isn’t a good point.

    #1101161

    I mentioned something about feeding them to my brother

    teehee

    #1101162
    Little Froggie
    Participant

    I caught that first. I just thought that here in the CR anything goes. (besides why would I want to ‘tchepa’ someone right after YK)

    #1101163
    apushatayid
    Participant

    Swinging round and round. Conjurs up an image of a cowboy lassoing a chicken and swinging it around.

    #1101164
    MDG
    Participant

    “Swinging round and round. Conjurs up an image of a cowboy lassoing a chicken and swinging it around. “

    Maybe one could see how far they can throw it, like the disc throw in the Olympics.

    #1101165
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Sam, did you not see the Tur? Rashi brings the Minhag with a plant from the times of Gaonim. So, the Minhag of doing ?? ??? ?? is thousands of years old. And that’s exactly what I meant by “one form or another”. I was responding to someone not understanding the concept of ?? ????? ??. The Tur, though, mentions using chickens from the times of Geonim.

    The Mechaber is coming off the Rashba, who acknowledged that it is widespread but didn’t like the looks of it. You mention a Lashon that is not there and doesn’t come from the Rashba he is coming off. It is silly to disregard the Maharil and Ashkenazic Mesora stemming from Geonim (which the Rashba might not have been aware of) because of an archeological Lashon of the Shulchan Aruch.

    If I’m not mistaken, this is one area where the Sefardim don’t accept the Mechaber.

    #1101166
    squeak
    Participant

    I am pleased to report our success in shutting down these kapparos factories. As of a week ago not a single one of those animal rights abusers is still in business torturing chickens anywhere in NYC. I hope we shut them down permanently but if they crop up again you can be sure we will be right back oht there protesting against the cruelty.

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