- This topic has 54 replies, 22 voices, and was last updated 9 years, 5 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
Why are the Chasidim called Stoliners rather than Karliners? And why is the name sometimes reversed as Stolin-Karlin? And are they somehow more affiliated with Pinsk-Karlin than with other Chasiduses?
Why do they use the Litvish havara rather than the Chasidish havara?
Is it correct that they are one of the four original Chasiduses from the original Talmidim of the Baal Shem Tov?
Questions 1 & 3, I’ll leave to those in the know, but to answer the question re their havara; they’re a russian based chassidus and therefore (like Lubavitch) do not have the Chassidish havara of Polish and Hungarian based Chassidim.
I don’t think there are any Chasiduss that are from Talmidei HaBaal Shem. You probably mean the Maggid.
They are more typically called stoliners to differentiate from the other karliners ie pinsk-karlin. The first stoliner rebbe (I believe the toldos aharon) and the baal hatanya were chavrusos. The oldest talmid (stolin) and the youngest talmid (lubavitch)
Pinsk is an offshoot from Stolin.
1.Why are the Chasidim called Stoliners rather than Karliners?
Not all Chasidim are called Stoliners.
2.Why is the name sometimes reversed as Stolin-Karlin?
Because this chasidus, derech avodah, was adopted, effected by the Rebbes and communities of these two towns, villages. At one time here another time there. It actually started in Karlin, then the center switched a few times. (In America, they’re generally called Karlin-Stolin and Stolin for short, in Eretz Yisroel they’re generally called Stolin-Karlin, Karlin for short)
3.Are they somehow more affiliated with Pinsk-Karlin
Actually the reverse, that community is a break-away from the main (discussion not suitable for the hallowed confines of the YWCR)
4.Why do they use the Litvish havara rather than the Chasidish havara?
As was pointed out these towns were in ‘Lita’. There is no real Chasidish havara, chasidic communities of the Polish / Galician / Hungarian regions speak with their local accent. Same with the chasidic towns of Lita / Russia. (Skver, for instance once spoke with a Russian havara) I don’t think the Baal Shem Tov or the Maggid spoke with a Galician havara.
5.Is it correct that they are one of the four original Chasiduses
That may be the case. What is interesting to note is that in earlier times, Chasidim as a whole were generally known as or called Karliners. ???????. That may either be because they were from the very first disciples, one of the first to forge a derech in avodas HaShem, or because of it’s great zest, fervor, fiery approach to Torah and Tefillah. (they were literally the loudest!)
There are many Talmidei Hamaggid. What comes to mind now, besides for Reb Aaron Hagadol of Karlin and the Baal Hatanya that were already mentioned here, are the Berditchiver, the Rebbe Reb Baruchel, the Rebbe Reb Shmelke, the Rebbe Reb Meilech, the Rebbe Reb Zushe, Reb Aaron of Chernoble, Reb Shloima Karliner, the Yosher Divrei Emes, and Reb Avrohom the Malach. There are more that I didn’t think of now.
Karlin was a town not far from Stolin. The Chasidim had to flee to Stolin after being persecuted by the Misnagdim in Karlin.
If I am not mistaken, the Pinsk-Karlin Rebbe is the brother of the current Stolin-Karlin Rebbe.
As to the Havara – they have similar styles as Lubavitch, who also don’t have a Chassidish Havara.
Havara has nothing to do with Chassidus or style. The current Pinsker Rebbe is a son of the previous, and first, Pinsker Rebbe.
RabbiYoni, you probably mean the Loitzker Rebbe Shlita.
There is a relatively pareve explanation for the separation between Pinsk Karlin and Karlin Stolin. When the Rebbe R’ Yochanan Perlow was nifter in 1955 or so, his desgnated successor, his grandson the current Stoliner Rebbe, R” Boruch Meir Yaakov Sochet of Givat Zev, was all of 6 months old. Those who didn’t want to wait for him to grow up formed a breakoff group and called it Pinsk Karlin.
Yes, I know that there’s more to it than that, but that is a relatively harmless version of the story.
The Loitzker Rebbe is R Yochanan Sochet, younger brother of the current rebbe of Karlin Stolin. Young enough to have been named after his grandfather, R Yochanan.
yossi z.
Definitely NOT Toldos Aharon.
You meant R’ Aharon Hagadol,
better known as the Bais Aharon for the sefer he wrote by that name.
Also famous for the well-known Friday night zemer he authored; Ka Echsoif.
Actually, the Bais Aharon is a grandson of Reb Aron Hagadol.
Thank You Haleivi.
I sit corrected.
I have some questions?
What about the current minhagim:
Women’s attire (ie, tights)
Davening Nusach
Anything that makes them unique from other chassidim
Men’s attire
General hashkafos: women driving, technology (aside from the whatsapp ban article just posted), importance of secular studies in schools (boys and girls), what parts of limudei kodesh do girls get to learn (some chassidim don’t have girls learn chumash).
cheder policies?
The chassidim were indeed once all called Karliners, but for a different reason. As is known, the Lithuanian misnagdim went to the Russian authorities and complained that the chassidim were not obeying the rules of traditional Judaism. The Russians went to investigate the local chassidic sect in Karlin but were not aware of the nuances of different chassidic sects in different places. Hence, in their report, they referred to the chassidic groups as a whole by the only name they knew at the time, the Karlin sect.
I have Karliner relatives in EY (who I’ve been to several times and whose friends and neighbors, particularly the women, I’ve often for various reasons met). This is what I’ve observed.
Women dress ordinary charedi, not necessarily with a double covering and suchlike. I’m not sure if women drive. Men do not necessarily wear streimlach. Girls learn normal Bais Yaakov Chumash. Not sure about boys, but girls learn secular studies including English starting sixth grade. I don’t know if this is unique, but a lot of the ones I’ve met (though I could have an availability bias) have been either baalei teshuva or newcomers to chassidim and are often drawn by the intense feeling and spirituality. They seem very down to earth, substance over style.
I find it interesting that secular studies would start in sixth grade. Do mean wear bekishes (or the weekday version of them) on weekdays? Is trendiness ok, assur or not encouraged but allowed?
From my observation, they are very far from being trendy or flashy. They don’t focus too much on secular studies. Few men wear shtreimels but they do wear laange rekels (bekeshes). The women dress very modestly and I don’t think the women drive. They use the Litvish havara (something somewhat unique amongst chasidim), daven Nusach Sefard (like other Chasidim) and they daven very loud. They know what’s going on in the world and are very down to earth. Their yeshivas have a reputation as having a very high level of learning and their student body is a good percentage Litvish and other chasiduses.
I heard that women can get a heter to drive though if they live in the states? Is that true? Also, do boys who are single drive?
what’s the hang up with driving? are you looking to start a taxi service?
FrozenThaw- no, so sorry, I’m talking about in Israel. English language to Israelis.
oh, got it.
What about single women? What if you got a “Heter” from the states and are visiting Israel? What if you are escorted by a man, or a single man? Does it make a difference if it is a stick-shift or automatic?
Do they yell during Teffilas Haderech? Do they wear their Streimel during Krias Hatorah? What about on Chol Hamoed? How about the Bachurim?
????? ???? ?? ?? ????? ?????? ??? ??? ?????
I know many chassidim do not wear shtreimels when davening, some do though.
ever heard of common sense?
not everything that people do is based on a minhag or represents a chasidus.
I witnessed that they also eat pickles with kugel, wear coats in the winter, where I really got confused was…………….. keep it going.
BTW in viznitz (bnei berak) I noticed that they put on the shtreimal shabbos by musaf when they start saying ??? ?? ? if you have a explanation on that I would appreciate it, thanks
Easy! They put on something round because of the Gra’s Remez on ???.
Who cares
on Yom Kippur when the kohein gadol did the ketores he would put on his mitznefes, so we do it today with our striemlach as a zecher
Who_cares: I only mention things that are specific to the chassidus. Of the family I know best, the husband likes astronomy and the wife puts her potato kugel in the cholent, but unless it is indeed a unique chassidus in many ways, that does not reflect the views of the rebbe.
Yeah, Karlin-Stolin is an astronomical Chassidus.
What are the rebbes views in regards to this? Are there any specific recreational activities that Karliners are not allowed to do that other frum Jews can do? What about peronal interests (such as not being allowed to swim at an all female beach, running outdoors for exercise, hiking)?
Stoliner women in the States can drive. A lot of them do. They mostly wear black tights in the winter, nude/natural in the summer, though some are stringent to only wear black. They start learning secular studies in first grade, like most conventional schools. Many bochurim drive. Levush-wise, most men wear up hats, litvish style peyos, and long frocks. The women are makpid to wear only full length sleeves. In general, they are the bridge between the yeshivish and chassidish world, having a Rebbe and chassidish minhagim with a mostly yeshivish lifestyle. There is a very strong emphasis on learning, and most men are in kollel. They are also homo sapiens, breathe in oxygen and carbon dioxide and exhale the CO2, most of them have ears, eyes and lips like other chassidim, noses and hands just like litvaks, and fingernails and legs just like sephardim.
I heard that some stoliner women wear seamed tights. Is this true? Also, are there any men who wear shtreimels, have chassidishe peyos and white socks? Or is it really unheard of?
It is pretty much unheard of, but there could be some people who marry into Stolin from other Chassiduses or become Stolin who retain their previous levush. I sometimes dropped into Stolin shul, and can’t think of a single person who wore chassidishe peyos or white socks. Shtreimels are somewhat more common.
This thread is ridiculous down rite silly
Jewish Source: some would even know how to spell!!
Shtreimel in the winter and white socks in the summer.
No veisse zacken after Labor Day.
Gofish: In EY, many Karliners do have chassidish peyos (especially the children). Veisse zacken I don’t think.
I love Stoliner people! They combine the best parts of yeshivish and chassidish people.
The Stoliner Rebbe can be reached through the email- isn’t that so awesome? It greatly annoys me when rabbanim institute a blanket ban on the Internet, because that seems so impractical to me. Over the next few decades, it will become near impossible to live without using the Internet. Mandate a filter that filters the modem, have an accountability program- sure! But don’t bury your head under your blanket to escape reality- that won’t end well.
Yes, Stoliner women in the U.S. can drive. I think that some of them shave their hair upon getting married.
How do you reach the Stoliner Rebbe via e-mail? (Never heard that one before.)
Out of curiosity, I heard that in order to keep/ maintain the chassidishe payos look. That you have to curl them with a curling iron & use hair gel to make them stay, is that true? I figure since we have been talking about the payos it would be interesting to know.
🙁
KJ chusid. If your chassidish, what chassidus do you belong too?
KJSatmar.
This is the longest thread ever run by a troll.
Good job frozen thaw!
Just btw you wouldn’t happen to know if Stoliners what kugel Stoliners prefer on shabbos I’m thinking of inviting one for shabbos are they allowed to eat out?
??????
sushibagel: Only requirement is it must be delicious. 🙂
All foods of Shabbos should be delicious. And for all Yidden, not only Stoliners.
But I suspect Stoliners put their dagash, their emphasis, on other areas of Avodas HaShem; learning and Davening with a geshmack, a fiery zeal.
I heard stoliner mesivta in ny goes up to the Catskills in the summer and they swim there.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.