Karlin-Stolin

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  • #603390
    Naysberg
    Member

    Why are the Chasidim called Stoliners rather than Karliners? And why is the name sometimes reversed as Stolin-Karlin? And are they somehow more affiliated with Pinsk-Karlin than with other Chasiduses?

    Why do they use the Litvish havara rather than the Chasidish havara?

    Is it correct that they are one of the four original Chasiduses from the original Talmidim of the Baal Shem Tov?

    #1090520
    REALIST
    Member

    Questions 1 & 3, I’ll leave to those in the know, but to answer the question re their havara; they’re a russian based chassidus and therefore (like Lubavitch) do not have the Chassidish havara of Polish and Hungarian based Chassidim.

    #1090521
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    I don’t think there are any Chasiduss that are from Talmidei HaBaal Shem. You probably mean the Maggid.

    #1090522
    yossi z.
    Member

    They are more typically called stoliners to differentiate from the other karliners ie pinsk-karlin. The first stoliner rebbe (I believe the toldos aharon) and the baal hatanya were chavrusos. The oldest talmid (stolin) and the youngest talmid (lubavitch)

    #1090523
    Patri
    Member

    Pinsk is an offshoot from Stolin.

    #1090524
    Eizena Kup
    Member

    1.Why are the Chasidim called Stoliners rather than Karliners?

    Not all Chasidim are called Stoliners.

    2.Why is the name sometimes reversed as Stolin-Karlin?

    Because this chasidus, derech avodah, was adopted, effected by the Rebbes and communities of these two towns, villages. At one time here another time there. It actually started in Karlin, then the center switched a few times. (In America, they’re generally called Karlin-Stolin and Stolin for short, in Eretz Yisroel they’re generally called Stolin-Karlin, Karlin for short)

    3.Are they somehow more affiliated with Pinsk-Karlin

    Actually the reverse, that community is a break-away from the main (discussion not suitable for the hallowed confines of the YWCR)

    4.Why do they use the Litvish havara rather than the Chasidish havara?

    As was pointed out these towns were in ‘Lita’. There is no real Chasidish havara, chasidic communities of the Polish / Galician / Hungarian regions speak with their local accent. Same with the chasidic towns of Lita / Russia. (Skver, for instance once spoke with a Russian havara) I don’t think the Baal Shem Tov or the Maggid spoke with a Galician havara.

    5.Is it correct that they are one of the four original Chasiduses

    That may be the case. What is interesting to note is that in earlier times, Chasidim as a whole were generally known as or called Karliners. ???????. That may either be because they were from the very first disciples, one of the first to forge a derech in avodas HaShem, or because of it’s great zest, fervor, fiery approach to Torah and Tefillah. (they were literally the loudest!)

    #1090525
    Naysberg
    Member

    Who were the Magid’s other talmidim?

    #1090526
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    There are many Talmidei Hamaggid. What comes to mind now, besides for Reb Aaron Hagadol of Karlin and the Baal Hatanya that were already mentioned here, are the Berditchiver, the Rebbe Reb Baruchel, the Rebbe Reb Shmelke, the Rebbe Reb Meilech, the Rebbe Reb Zushe, Reb Aaron of Chernoble, Reb Shloima Karliner, the Yosher Divrei Emes, and Reb Avrohom the Malach. There are more that I didn’t think of now.

    #1090527
    RabbiYoni
    Member

    Karlin was a town not far from Stolin. The Chasidim had to flee to Stolin after being persecuted by the Misnagdim in Karlin.

    If I am not mistaken, the Pinsk-Karlin Rebbe is the brother of the current Stolin-Karlin Rebbe.

    As to the Havara – they have similar styles as Lubavitch, who also don’t have a Chassidish Havara.

    #1090528
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Havara has nothing to do with Chassidus or style. The current Pinsker Rebbe is a son of the previous, and first, Pinsker Rebbe.

    #1090529
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    RabbiYoni, you probably mean the Loitzker Rebbe Shlita.

    #1090530
    midwesterner
    Participant

    There is a relatively pareve explanation for the separation between Pinsk Karlin and Karlin Stolin. When the Rebbe R’ Yochanan Perlow was nifter in 1955 or so, his desgnated successor, his grandson the current Stoliner Rebbe, R” Boruch Meir Yaakov Sochet of Givat Zev, was all of 6 months old. Those who didn’t want to wait for him to grow up formed a breakoff group and called it Pinsk Karlin.

    Yes, I know that there’s more to it than that, but that is a relatively harmless version of the story.

    The Loitzker Rebbe is R Yochanan Sochet, younger brother of the current rebbe of Karlin Stolin. Young enough to have been named after his grandfather, R Yochanan.

    #1090531
    REALIST
    Member

    yossi z.

    Definitely NOT Toldos Aharon.

    You meant R’ Aharon Hagadol,

    better known as the Bais Aharon for the sefer he wrote by that name.

    Also famous for the well-known Friday night zemer he authored; Ka Echsoif.

    #1090532
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Actually, the Bais Aharon is a grandson of Reb Aron Hagadol.

    #1090533
    REALIST
    Member

    Thank You Haleivi.

    I sit corrected.

    #1090534
    FrozenThaw
    Member

    I have some questions?

    What about the current minhagim:

    Women’s attire (ie, tights)

    Davening Nusach

    Anything that makes them unique from other chassidim

    Men’s attire

    General hashkafos: women driving, technology (aside from the whatsapp ban article just posted), importance of secular studies in schools (boys and girls), what parts of limudei kodesh do girls get to learn (some chassidim don’t have girls learn chumash).

    cheder policies?

    #1090535
    old man
    Participant

    The chassidim were indeed once all called Karliners, but for a different reason. As is known, the Lithuanian misnagdim went to the Russian authorities and complained that the chassidim were not obeying the rules of traditional Judaism. The Russians went to investigate the local chassidic sect in Karlin but were not aware of the nuances of different chassidic sects in different places. Hence, in their report, they referred to the chassidic groups as a whole by the only name they knew at the time, the Karlin sect.

    #1090536
    writersoul
    Member

    I have Karliner relatives in EY (who I’ve been to several times and whose friends and neighbors, particularly the women, I’ve often for various reasons met). This is what I’ve observed.

    Women dress ordinary charedi, not necessarily with a double covering and suchlike. I’m not sure if women drive. Men do not necessarily wear streimlach. Girls learn normal Bais Yaakov Chumash. Not sure about boys, but girls learn secular studies including English starting sixth grade. I don’t know if this is unique, but a lot of the ones I’ve met (though I could have an availability bias) have been either baalei teshuva or newcomers to chassidim and are often drawn by the intense feeling and spirituality. They seem very down to earth, substance over style.

    #1090537
    FrozenThaw
    Member

    I find it interesting that secular studies would start in sixth grade. Do mean wear bekishes (or the weekday version of them) on weekdays? Is trendiness ok, assur or not encouraged but allowed?

    #1090538
    Joseph
    Participant

    From my observation, they are very far from being trendy or flashy. They don’t focus too much on secular studies. Few men wear shtreimels but they do wear laange rekels (bekeshes). The women dress very modestly and I don’t think the women drive. They use the Litvish havara (something somewhat unique amongst chasidim), daven Nusach Sefard (like other Chasidim) and they daven very loud. They know what’s going on in the world and are very down to earth. Their yeshivas have a reputation as having a very high level of learning and their student body is a good percentage Litvish and other chasiduses.

    #1090539
    FrozenThaw
    Member

    I heard that women can get a heter to drive though if they live in the states? Is that true? Also, do boys who are single drive?

    #1090540
    apushatayid
    Participant

    what’s the hang up with driving? are you looking to start a taxi service?

    #1090541
    writersoul
    Member

    FrozenThaw- no, so sorry, I’m talking about in Israel. English language to Israelis.

    #1090542
    FrozenThaw
    Member

    oh, got it.

    #1090543
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    What about single women? What if you got a “Heter” from the states and are visiting Israel? What if you are escorted by a man, or a single man? Does it make a difference if it is a stick-shift or automatic?

    Do they yell during Teffilas Haderech? Do they wear their Streimel during Krias Hatorah? What about on Chol Hamoed? How about the Bachurim?

    ????? ???? ?? ?? ????? ?????? ??? ??? ?????

    #1090544
    FrozenThaw
    Member

    I know many chassidim do not wear shtreimels when davening, some do though.

    #1090545
    who_cares
    Participant

    ever heard of common sense?

    not everything that people do is based on a minhag or represents a chasidus.

    I witnessed that they also eat pickles with kugel, wear coats in the winter, where I really got confused was…………….. keep it going.

    BTW in viznitz (bnei berak) I noticed that they put on the shtreimal shabbos by musaf when they start saying ??? ?? ? if you have a explanation on that I would appreciate it, thanks

    #1090546
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Easy! They put on something round because of the Gra’s Remez on ???.

    #1090547

    Who cares

    on Yom Kippur when the kohein gadol did the ketores he would put on his mitznefes, so we do it today with our striemlach as a zecher

    #1090548
    writersoul
    Member

    Who_cares: I only mention things that are specific to the chassidus. Of the family I know best, the husband likes astronomy and the wife puts her potato kugel in the cholent, but unless it is indeed a unique chassidus in many ways, that does not reflect the views of the rebbe.

    #1090549
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Yeah, Karlin-Stolin is an astronomical Chassidus.

    #1090550
    FrozenThaw
    Member

    What are the rebbes views in regards to this? Are there any specific recreational activities that Karliners are not allowed to do that other frum Jews can do? What about peronal interests (such as not being allowed to swim at an all female beach, running outdoors for exercise, hiking)?

    #1090551
    gofish
    Member

    Stoliner women in the States can drive. A lot of them do. They mostly wear black tights in the winter, nude/natural in the summer, though some are stringent to only wear black. They start learning secular studies in first grade, like most conventional schools. Many bochurim drive. Levush-wise, most men wear up hats, litvish style peyos, and long frocks. The women are makpid to wear only full length sleeves. In general, they are the bridge between the yeshivish and chassidish world, having a Rebbe and chassidish minhagim with a mostly yeshivish lifestyle. There is a very strong emphasis on learning, and most men are in kollel. They are also homo sapiens, breathe in oxygen and carbon dioxide and exhale the CO2, most of them have ears, eyes and lips like other chassidim, noses and hands just like litvaks, and fingernails and legs just like sephardim.

    #1090552
    FrozenThaw
    Member

    I heard that some stoliner women wear seamed tights. Is this true? Also, are there any men who wear shtreimels, have chassidishe peyos and white socks? Or is it really unheard of?

    #1090553
    gofish
    Member

    It is pretty much unheard of, but there could be some people who marry into Stolin from other Chassiduses or become Stolin who retain their previous levush. I sometimes dropped into Stolin shul, and can’t think of a single person who wore chassidishe peyos or white socks. Shtreimels are somewhat more common.

    #1090554
    jewish source
    Participant

    This thread is ridiculous down rite silly

    #1090555
    Eizena Kup
    Member

    Jewish Source: some would even know how to spell!!

    #1090557
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Shtreimel in the winter and white socks in the summer.

    #1090558
    writersoul
    Member

    No veisse zacken after Labor Day.

    Gofish: In EY, many Karliners do have chassidish peyos (especially the children). Veisse zacken I don’t think.

    #1090559
    Letakein Girl
    Participant

    I love Stoliner people! They combine the best parts of yeshivish and chassidish people.

    The Stoliner Rebbe can be reached through the email- isn’t that so awesome? It greatly annoys me when rabbanim institute a blanket ban on the Internet, because that seems so impractical to me. Over the next few decades, it will become near impossible to live without using the Internet. Mandate a filter that filters the modem, have an accountability program- sure! But don’t bury your head under your blanket to escape reality- that won’t end well.

    Yes, Stoliner women in the U.S. can drive. I think that some of them shave their hair upon getting married.

    #1090560
    Joseph
    Participant

    How do you reach the Stoliner Rebbe via e-mail? (Never heard that one before.)

    #1090561
    FrozenThaw
    Member

    Out of curiosity, I heard that in order to keep/ maintain the chassidishe payos look. That you have to curl them with a curling iron & use hair gel to make them stay, is that true? I figure since we have been talking about the payos it would be interesting to know.

    #1090562
    kj chusid
    Participant

    🙁

    #1090563
    FrozenThaw
    Member

    KJ chusid. If your chassidish, what chassidus do you belong too?

    #1090564
    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    KJSatmar.

    #1090565
    sushibagel
    Member

    This is the longest thread ever run by a troll.

    Good job frozen thaw!

    Just btw you wouldn’t happen to know if Stoliners what kugel Stoliners prefer on shabbos I’m thinking of inviting one for shabbos are they allowed to eat out?

    #1090566
    kj chusid
    Participant

    ??????

    #1090567
    writersoul
    Member

    sushibagel: Only requirement is it must be delicious. 🙂

    #1090568
    Little Froggie
    Participant

    All foods of Shabbos should be delicious. And for all Yidden, not only Stoliners.

    But I suspect Stoliners put their dagash, their emphasis, on other areas of Avodas HaShem; learning and Davening with a geshmack, a fiery zeal.

    #1090569
    FrozenThaw
    Member

    I heard stoliner mesivta in ny goes up to the Catskills in the summer and they swim there.

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