Kashrut Technology

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  • #614443

    Jewish Thinker
    Participant

    I have a question. Why don’t we have a kashrus technology thing just like by Shabbat? We have shabbos clocks and lights but by Kashrut, not much.

    Why don’t we have an institution that tries to make a

    sink a kli shlishi so we can clean milk and meat together or an oven that does something with the steam so we can cook meat and milk uncovered at the same time? It would help so much.

    #1219837

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    For the sink, I suppose you could adjust the water temperature to below yad soledes bo, but would anyone really be comfortable washing them together anyhow?

    As far as the oven, steam isn’t the problem with davar yavesh anyhow, and you wouldn’t really get out of reicha issues, or potential spills and splatters.

    The self cleaning oven is pretty good kashrus technology, as is the light box, and probably a dozen more items not presently coming to mind.

    #1219838

    Jewish Thinker
    Participant

    Obvioulsy if it is not yad soledes bo it’s not going to cook but I think (I may be wrong) the main reason the sink faucet is a kli rishon is because it goes continuesly from the boiler to the sink. But if one can invent some pot where the water drops into for a couple of seconds and then a second pair of pipes pick up the water from there and to your sink, it would be a kli shlishi and even if it boiling hot it cannot cook. As for the comfortobality part if a Rav said it’s not a problem why wouldn’t you wash them together?

    #1219839

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Some hold yad soledes bo does transfer blios even in a kli shlishi, plus there’s a slight risk of b’ein remaining on a dish.

    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=25074&st=&pgnum=241

    #1219840

    Jewish Thinker
    Participant

    Most poskim are lenient for a kli shlishi

    #1219841

    Jewish Thinker
    Participant

    Also, you can invent a soap dispenser pouring soap into the water while it’s going through the pipes, that would give the water a soapy taste, hence pagum and you can wash meat and dairy at yad soledes bo. {the soap would need to get into every part of the water, though.} (even though you can technically put soap on every plate, it’s hard to for the soap to hit every part, so it’s risky to wash them together)

    #1219842

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Yes, but that would still make such a product less marketable.

    Let’s go through the issues with mass marketing such technology. First, we have to figure what the cost would be to develop the product, and then to produce and install it. I don’t have a number, but it would probably be expensive on both ends.

    Then we have to figure how many people would buy it. I don’t specifically know that either, but we can eliminate many. We can eliminate anyone who has a dishwasher. We can eliminate anyone who has two sinks. We can eliminate anyone who, despite having one sink and no dishwasher, doesn’t generally leave their dishes to pile up. We can eliminate anyone who is uncomfortable with washing milchig and fleishig dishes together in hot water, one factor being that it’s not l’chol hadeios.

    Figure that most homeowners have either two sinks and/or at least one dishwasher, and figure that most people would probably not invest the hundreds of dollars it would probably cost into a rented home.

    I think there’s no money to be made on such a product, so nobody developed it. Shabbos clocks, on the other hand, are not even a specifically Jewish product, and they serve a more important and widely useful function. Even the Kosher Lamp, which is marketed to shomer Shabbos people, is more useful, and more affordable, to a much larger group of consumers than would be a kli shlishi sink, in my opinion.

    #1219843

    Jewish Thinker
    Participant

    Yes, now it would not be a good idea to try to get it into homes but what about newlyweds who move in and want to maximize their space so they get one sink with this device installed.

    #1219844

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    The “Kosher Lamp” is no great invention, You can basically do that yourself. Make a Lamp and then cover it at night. Make sure you use things that do not burn

    #1219845

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    JT, if you think there’s enough of a market for it, you can go ahead and develop it. Personally, I don’t think there’s enough of a market for it to be worth it.

    ZD, then how do you explain the product’s success?

    #1219846

    shebbesonian
    Participant

    Maybe not a great invention, but a fantastic innovation. What you can basically do yourself, they put together into a marketable product.

    #1219847

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    DY

    I would quote PT Barnum now, but I dont think it would be allowed here.

    #1219848

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Lol, I know what he said, but I don’t think that applies here. I think the Kosher Lamp is more convenient than a homemade contraption.

    #1219849

    Jewish Thinker
    Participant

    The Kosher Lamp is brilliant.

    I hope a Kli Shlishi sink would do as good if I do invent it one day

    #1219850

    barlev
    Participant

    Internet Cameras are used at milking plants to insure that it’s ??? ?????, and as far as I know it’s also used to save having a ????? ?????

    #1219851

    YW Moderator-42
    Moderator

    How about invent a hot water system that can be used on Shabbos. We have urns for coffee. Why not make the actual boiler work in a similar way so that you can turn on the hot water in the sink/shower to wash dishes etc.

    #1219852

    barlev
    Participant

    Showering on Shabbos? Ask your LOR if that is allowed.

    In our local mikve they actually fill the bor on erev shabbos with boiling hot water, I don’t remember the source for this, nor what is gained, but some poskim do not allow use of water that was heated on shabbos

    How does your local mikve heat water on shabbos?

    #1219853

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    42, it’s been invented. I don’t know if it didn’t take off because it was too expensive, if it was halachically questionable, or if there was just poor marketing.

    #1219854

    YW Moderator-42
    Moderator

    Barlev, I knew someone would ask that. I forgot to add a disclaimer to my post that there are shaylos about bathing on Shabbos even if the water was heated in a halachikly muttar way. Which might be why such a thing hasn’t taken off. But there are circumstances when it can be muttar and it can even be helpful just to avoid the accidental issur of turning on the hot water faucet in the sink. During the winter I often turn on the hot water faucet for general hand washing because the cold water is very cold and the weather is freezing. I have to remember not to do this on Shabbos.

    #1219856


    Participant

    How about invent a hot water system that can be used on Shabbos. We have urns for coffee. Why not make the actual boiler work in a similar way so that you can turn on the hot water in the sink/shower to wash dishes etc.

    Much of England is plumbed with that type of system (if you turn off the supply). The downside is that the hot water there is not potable, that’s why they have separate faucets for hot and cold.

    #1219857

    Jewish Thinker
    Participant

    Again, as I have said on other theads, I’m not a posek so don’t rely on my halachick discussions.

    #1219858

    blubluh
    Participant

    > How about invent a hot water system that can be

    > used on Shabbos. We have urns for coffee. Why not

    > make the actual boiler work in a similar way so that

    > you can turn on the hot water in the sink/shower to

    > wash dishes etc.

    Yes, this does already exist. I lived on a Kibbutz in 1976 where they designed/installed such a device on a hot water heater. When in switched to “Shabbos mode”, it kept the water temperature in the tank below yad-soledes.

    However, I don’t know whether such a device would help regarding the issue of showering on Shabbos/Yom Tov. That may depend more on whether poskim consider this change sufficient to relax the original gzeira.

    #1219859

    shebbesonian
    Participant

    Bump.

    What’s the point in a kli shlishi sink? It still won’t make it ???? ??????? to wash meat and milk dishes together. ???? ???? ??? ???? ??.

    In general, all of our kosher innovations only work when they are cost-effective solutions to a common problem. (Think kosher lamp, timers etc. they are relatively inexpensive, usually not that much more than a regular lamp or light switch.) Why spend money on an oven that allows you to cook meat and milk in the same oven when you already could if it’s a ??? ???, you could cover it if there is ????, and in most cases you won’t need your oven for both milk and meat simultaneously?

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