Kezayis only for Pesach?

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  • #612575
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Many people make a big deal about the kezayis(kezaisim) of matza at the seder. There are special charts to measure with, and very often the most stringent measurements of kezayis and kedaiy achilas pras are encouraged. So how come no one ever makes a deal out of this on Succos if the gezeiras shava of tes vav tes vav equates the chiyuv of Pesach and Succos?

    #1011829
    HaMisnaged
    Member

    Theres another stira like that by matzah.some chevra are super makpid to only eat hand matzah because of the ‘lishmo’ daiga but they buy machine made tzitzis? tzitzis and matzah have exactly the same din of lishmo!

    #1011830
    akuperma
    Participant

    For most mitsvos it is easy to exceed a shiur, which makes the shiur largely irrelevant. For example, one is required to eat a kazais of hallah in the sukkah but unless you have some serious medical problem, that’s no big deal. Eating a kazais of matsa and marror can be a problem except for those of us who love to eat dry crackers and hot horse raddish, in which case the seder cuisine is quite unchallenging.

    #1011831
    Sam2
    Participant

    Akuperma: There’s a separate issue that you might not be Yotzei at all with horse radish. Just eat lettuce.

    #1011832
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    And there’s another issue that we might be using the lettuce wrong, so just use horseradish.

    #1011833
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Apukerma: I was not particularly discussing how challenging it is to eat a kezayis of matza. I was pointing out that I have never seen or heard anyone being especially careful on Succos to make sure that they have a full kezayis within kedaiy achilas pras (according to the machmir opinions) preferably eating the entire kezayis in one shot. Whether it is hard or not on succos is irrelevant. In fact if it’s easy then all the more reason why we should see it being done.

    #1011834
    Sam2
    Participant

    HaLeiVi: Who says there’s an issue with using lettuce wrong? How could that be?

    #1011835
    oyyoyyoy
    Participant

    im makpid

    #1011836
    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    PAA,

    Lo shomanu is not a rayeh. I always remember being careful to eat the first kezayis in a the succah kday achilas pras, without hefsek.

    As Akuperma said, it is because it is more difficult to eat a kezayis of matzo, and it is harder to gauge the shiur, that you hear more about it.

    #1011837
    Rebbe Yid
    Participant

    There may be other issues with the matza machine, like the rolled-out dough traveling through warm areas before reaching the over, which may hasten the process of chimutz. Also, I’ve never seen either type of machine–is it possible that a tzitzis tying machine has a greater role for the operator than the matza machine?

    About the difficulty in eating a kezayis of matza vs challah–remember that on seder night we eat four kezaysim.

    #1011838
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Speaking of lettuce, I always wondered why lettuce is Maror if it’s not particularly bitter. I finally found that the Chofetz Chaim asks this:

    ????? ????? ????? ???? ??????? ????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ???? ?? ??? ????? ??? ??? ????

    He answers:

    ?????? ??? ????? ??????? ??? ?? ?? ?????? ?????? ???? ??? ?? ?? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ??????? ???? ?????? ??????? ?? ????? ?????? ????? ?????? ?????? ?? ????? ?? ???? ????? ??? ????? ??? ??????? ???? ?? ???? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ?? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ?????? ?????? ???? ?????

    #1011839
    Davar Katan
    Member

    I don’t get your question. Every meal you ever eat you should be machmir for the largest kezayis and shortest kidei achila, otherwise you risk s bracha livatala by benching. Safeik brochos lihakeil. Esp if you assume we’re more machmir by the seder bc of the bracha beforehand.

    #1011840
    Davar Katan
    Member

    And mr. patur, why don’t you ask if you’re even yotzei at all with horseradish. look in the poskim (even the mishna berura) its very questionable. if u want a good chumra that’s the place to start

    #1011841
    Bar Shattya
    Member

    Every meal you ever eat you should be machmir for the largest kezayis and shortest kidei achila,

    that’s backwards, kdai achilas pras is based on the size of the kzayis

    #1011842
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Bar Shattya’s back!

    that’s backwards, kdai achilas pras is based on the size of the kzayis

    It also has to do with how fast people eat, so I don’t know that it’s entirely backwards.

    #1011845
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Davar Katan: I think that by every meal in general people rely on the more meikil opinions. However, there is an inyan that by a mitzvah which only comes once in a while, you should try to do it in the best fashion. So by the mitzvah of matzah on the first night of Pesach people are super machmir. My question was that the first night of Succos is the same as the first night of Pesach.

    As for your point about horseradish, I was not even remotely discussing whether you are yotzei with it. My question was why Maror would be something that is not bitter, such as lettuce. In fact Sam2 already brought up the issue of horseradish. When he said “just eat lettuce” it provided an opening for my question. I did not even mention horseradish at all.

    #1011846
    Davar Katan
    Member

    Rabbi patur, is there any mekor for your “inyan” in any accepted halacha sefer. I’m sure you can find many such ideas in chassidish and machshava seforim but if that’s the way you pasken shailas…

    #1011847
    Davar Katan
    Member

    also even if you’re correct that there’s such an accepted inyan I think it’s clear that the motivations behind the pesach kezayis don’t stem from this.

    #1011848
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Davar Katan:

    I’m just trying to be dan lekaf zechus. And why did I get upgraded from Mr. to Rabbi? (Assuming that I am a man in the first place.)

    #1011849
    Davar Katan
    Member

    you cannot say smthng halichically absurd and when proven wrong just say its a limud zechut. lo zu haderech.

    #1011850
    Chaimy
    Participant

    Before you eat lettuce you need to make sure it is bug free. You are oiver many Doraisos when you eat even a small tiny little bug.

    #1011851
    Sam2
    Participant

    Chaimy: Most bugs found on lettuce are only 1 D’oraisa. And Chazal knew about bugs when they told us to eat lettuce.

    #1011852
    sam4321
    Participant

    Sam2: you are aware that there were big poskim who at horseradish,right?

    #1011853
    squeak
    Participant

    If you want to follow a YU version of a chumra, go ahead and listen to Sam. I don’t think even any YUniks believe that though, it was just something said over in a shiur. Some people need to say things just to have their own knaitch. If you are from any other walk off life, just go ahead and ignore what he says.

    “Only 1 Deoraisa”. Do you mean as opposed to something serious?

    #1011854
    squeak
    Participant

    And since I won’t be here to respond when Sam complains that my comment somehow denigrates R. Schachter (whom I doubt he has ever met), let me add the following: Why isn’t R. Schachter here promoting the retirement of horseradish from the marror universe?

    #1011855
    Davar Katan
    Member

    squeaker, yu and rabbi Schechter have nothing to do with this. many many mainstream poskim (inc the mishna berura) are extremely hesitant to allow horseradish for maror. rav nisin Kaplan has an entire shiur online where he says even if you eat horseradish together with lettuce you might not be yotzei bc mitzvos mivatel zu es zu

    #1011856
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Davar Katan: it is not halachically absurd to rely on meikil opinions. It is also not halachically absurd to sometimes be machmir because of “machshava” reasons. And you never explained the promotion from Mr. to rabbi and I noticed on the other thread you promoted me to Dr.

    Squeak: Do you expect R’ Shachter to be posting his views on yeshivaworld? He put out a “teshuva” on this subject which I printed out last year although I can’t seem to locate it now.

    #1011857
    Davar Katan
    Member

    please, don’t make this into yet another political issue. have the humility to admit that you don’t know the subject or at least refrain from commenting on something until you see the mekoros

    #1011858
    Davar Katan
    Member

    and esp don’t tell ppl reading what they should or shouldn’t be doing halichically if you’re not qualified. and that’s not a chumra:????? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ?? ???? ??? ??? ??? ????? ???? ?? ???? ????? ????? (Shulchan Aruch Yoreh Deah 242:13)

    #1011859
    Davar Katan
    Member

    And also squeaker, it doesn’t help to go after ppl u don’t agree with personally. if u have something logical to say then share, if not stay silent. hit and run unlearned comments add nothing to the discussion. one of the problems with anonymous comments.

    #1011860
    Davar Katan
    Member

    sir patur maybe you’re a rabbi doctor

    #1011861
    Sam2
    Participant

    squeak: It meant as opposed to his comment that there were several. I wasn’t saying better or worse; just correcting his inaccuracy.

    #1011862
    charliehall
    Participant

    ” Every meal you ever eat you should be machmir for the largest kezayis and shortest kidei achila, otherwise you risk s bracha livatala by benching.”

    That might well make you a glutton. See Ramban to the parshat Kedoshim, which we will be reading the Shabat after Pesach.

    As many have pointed out, there is no “meikel” or “machmir” regarding shiurim. A machmir shiur in one area creates kulot in other areas. And anyone who takes all the chumrot is a fool — at least according to Chazal.

    #1011863
    Davar Katan
    Member

    Samuel, squeaker’s comment does not deserve a response from you. He’s just trying to start a political debate with you. Let his unlearned comment serve as its own refutation.

    #1011864
    sam4321
    Participant

    I don’t understand how one can say one is not yotzei Maror with horseradish when the gemara says tamcha is good and the Shulchan Aruch codifies it and the Mishna Brurah writes that if lettuce is hard to clean than certainly one should use horseradish.Furthermore the Mishna Brurah writes that if one is sick or sensitive they can pick any one they choose.I understand that chazeres is preferred,but to say one is not yotzei?!

    #1011865
    sam4321
    Participant

    And I know the machlokes if it is good or not,or even if tamcha in gemara is horseradish.My point is it has been established by many poskim as being good.There is certainly those to rely on.This is a very old machlokes just like many other halachos.

    #1011866
    Davar Katan
    Member

    just subtract 4319

    #1011868
    Davar Katan
    Member

    The problem mentioned earlier is eating the horseradish and lettuce together(as many ppl do) which is even assuming horseradish is valid maror gets involved in being mitztaref 2 diff minim of maror together which acc to many rishonim and poskim (inc rashi and ran) is only yotzei bidi’avad and if horseradish is not one of the minim the ta’am is mivatel the ta’am of the real maror thus leaving you with a bracha livatalah and no mitzvah-per the gemara pesachim mitzvos mivatel zu et zu- part of the machloket there regarding korech.

    #1011870
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Sam4321:

    By definition, if there is a machlokes whether tamcha is horseradish then according to those who say that it is not, you are not yotzei. Hence Sam2 said that you might not be yotzei.

    #1011871
    sam4321
    Participant

    Paa: Its not only tamcha ,but even chazeres is debatable,not every lettuce your yotzei with and even romaine nowadays if its not grown natural some hold its a problem. My point everything is a machlokes.

    Dk: I believe Rav Solavaitck(don’t know how to spell in English) ate both.

    #1011872
    Sam2
    Participant

    sam4: That was a Purim Shpiel I once wrote. Everything is a Machlokes so it’s Assur to eat because of Safek Brachos. You have to live off an IV.

    #1011873
    Davar Katan
    Member

    And which language do you know how to spell it in?

    #1011874
    sam4321
    Participant

    Spanish!

    #1011875
    Davar Katan
    Member

    so nu

    #1011877
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    “I believe Rav Solavaitck(don’t know how to spell in English) ate both”

    He said that while growing up in Europe, they used lettuce, though he couldn’t say for sure what type of lettuce it was. He said that they also had horseradish, but it seemed from his words that it was because lettuce was rather expensive. He said that he himself (presumably referring to when he was already his own man) used lettuce.

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