November 10, 2014 10:11 pm at 10:11 pm #614207Chochom-ibberParticipant
For some reason today’s Chinuch “masters” claim that the worst thing one can do to a swayed child is to kick him out of the house. Love, love, acceptance, love and more love etc.
Our father of Chesed, our DNA origin of giving and caring, Avraham Avinu, sent his son away. Not because he was actually having a negative influence on Yitzchok rather because Sara and Avraham thought he might have one. He sent his son away to the extent that he needed a Nes not to die.
Crazy Chinuch, no?November 10, 2014 11:35 pm at 11:35 pm #1041825
Well, leaving one’s children to die on the streets isn’t very good chinuch either.November 10, 2014 11:37 pm at 11:37 pm #1041826
He sent him away because of a direct command from Hashem.November 11, 2014 12:21 am at 12:21 am #1041827
exactly! R reisman (in lawrence, not brooklyn) actually was saying a vort about middos and this was to fine tune his chessed to not be on default because theres good and bad to all middosNovember 11, 2014 1:29 am at 1:29 am #1041828zahavasdadParticipant
Depending on the age of the child , It might be illegal and a terrible Chilul Hashem (If a child is under 18 it is against the law to kick them out unless they are a JD and being Machalel Shabbos is not considered being a JD under the law) and even if they are breaking the law, its not so easy to kick them outNovember 11, 2014 4:41 am at 4:41 am #1041829oomisParticipant
To be fair and accurate, it was SARAH Emainu who said to kick him out. Avraham didn’t want to. Hashem then commanded him to do all that Sarah said.November 11, 2014 6:53 am at 6:53 am #1041830HaLeiViParticipant
It wasn’t a theoretical worry. Chazal tell us that it was pretty serious. And Avraham sent them out with care, and even went to check up on him later on.November 11, 2014 9:45 am at 9:45 am #1041831BarryLS1Participant
SARAH Emainu was a Novi and knew what Yishmoel would become. The problem today is that children have become disposable if they have some issues and that some parents get hung up on what other people will think or say. It becomes a self fulfilling prophesy.
The best of parents can have a problem child, but often there are reasons behind a child’s behavior and that needs to be dealt with, not by burying ones head in the ground. Children are not disposable.November 11, 2014 11:58 am at 11:58 am #1041832northwardbMember
Reality check: How many of you actually have children who are, or were, juvenile delinquents/”swayed” children?November 11, 2014 12:14 pm at 12:14 pm #1041833RandomexMember
(I really hope I’m being trolled…)
“Our father of Chesed, our DNA origin of giving and caring, Avraham Avinu, sent his son away.”
As Oomis pointed out, only because he was commanded to by Hashem.
“Avraham Avinu sent his son away.”
“Ki b’Yitzchok yikorei l’cha zora” – in a certain sense, Yishmael was not considered truly a son of Avraham. Today?
“because Sara and Avraham thought he might have a negative influence on Yitzchok.”
You talk about what experts say is the worst thing for the child himself, then counter with Yishmael being sent away to avoid the possibility of him influencing Yitzchok, not for the sake of his own chinuch. (And then there’s the explanation which says that he had tried to kill Yitzchok. I don’t think today’s experts would disagree with you in that scenario.)
“He sent his son away to the extent that he needed a Nes not to die.”
Avraham did not endanger Yishmael’s life by sending him away!
When Yishmael was sent away, his mother went with him (today?!)
and Avraham gave them food and water. According to Rashi, Yishmael’s life was endangered only because Sarah put an ayin hora on Yishmael. As a result, he became sick, and therefore used up the water faster than he normally would have.
“this was to fine tune his chessed to not be on default because theres good and bad to all middos”
I don’t understand his vort.
You wouldn’t be allowed to treat someone badly
because you needed to fine-tune your own middos…November 11, 2014 12:49 pm at 12:49 pm #1041834
if Hashem told you, you would!
the gemmara says someone that has compassion when he’s not supposed to, will eventually be stingy when he needs to have compassion, chessed isnt necessarily all lovy dovy
i wish i could explain betterNovember 11, 2014 1:17 pm at 1:17 pm #1041835
I strongly take isdue with Barry’s post! No normal parent thinks like that! If the parent is abusive or mentally disturbed,maybe!November 11, 2014 2:11 pm at 2:11 pm #1041836☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
I think Barry is missing a huge part of the equation. As ivory said, no normal parent sees their child as disposable. From my limited perspective, it’s actually quite rare for a child to be kicked out, but when it happens, it’s not because that child is ch”v viewed as disposable, it’s to protect other children from a negative influence.
Because the other children are not disposable.
Lo aleinu that a parent should ever have to deal with such an awful dilemma.November 11, 2014 2:53 pm at 2:53 pm #1041837secretagentyidMember
If my parents would have kicked me out when I was in that stage, I don’t know where I would be today. Or if I would even have survived c’vNovember 11, 2014 3:05 pm at 3:05 pm #1041838RandomexMember
“From my limited perspective, it’s actually quite rare for a child to be kicked out, but when it happens, […] it’s to protect other children from a negative influence.”
Just as in Yishmael’s case. Are you reading this, OP?
I’ll take a shot at it. What was meant was not that this method of
dealing with Yishmael was chosen only for the purpose of working on Avraham Avinu’s balance of middos, despite what it might mean for Yishmael – rather, this was the proper way to deal with Yishmael, but Avraham was opposed to it because he was too far to the side of
chesed. Thus, he was correcting himself by doing what should
have been done regardless.November 11, 2014 4:32 pm at 4:32 pm #1041839
you might have a point, but what he was stressing was that this was one of the 10 nisyonos and this was why (that was what he was saying)November 11, 2014 6:18 pm at 6:18 pm #1041840000646Participant
Making the kind of inferences that the OP is making to support the idea that certain actions should be done these days is VERY problematic to say the very least.
Yitzchak married a 3 year old, Shimon and Levi killed all the males in a city whose ruler had violated their sister, and Lot offered his daughters to bad people banging on his door in Sidom. etc. etc. at the very least you need a good moral authority to tell you which things can be applied as recommendations for modern behavior in any kind of literal senseNovember 11, 2014 6:28 pm at 6:28 pm #1041841🍫Syag LchochmaParticipant
Each case is obviously different but since we are making sweeping generalizations: People are not supposed to kick their kid out because of the negative influence he is making on the other kids. That would probably put the nail in his coffin (as secretagentyid stated). They do what they need to do R”L for his own sake. They are advised to make ultimatums so that he can make good choices or take responsibility for his bad choices. You are naive if you think kicking a kid out for being a negative influence will leave a positive impression on the other children.November 11, 2014 6:52 pm at 6:52 pm #1041842
This is really not the place for such serious decisions. But I don’t think anyone thinks that sending a kid away will leave a positive impression on the other kids. Sometimes you have to choose between a rock and a hard place and not left with many choices. No one should ever be in such a position.November 11, 2014 6:57 pm at 6:57 pm #1041843interjectionParticipant
You are naive if you think kicking a kid out for being a negative influence will leave a positive impression on the other children.
When a parent throws a child out of the house it is rarely, if ever, beneficial to the child or the rest of the children and usually only beneficial for the parents because then no one is reminded what ‘failures of parents’ they are. (I say that tongue in cheek because I don’t think it’s the parent’s fault that the kid went off but I think that when a parent kicks out their child, it’s partly because the parents think others view them that way.) When parents throw a child out of the house, the parents are throwing away their personal responsibility to take care of their children. If they throw the kid out of the house they are not trying to fix whatever caused the first kid to rebel and then, whatever happened that made the first kid ‘go off’ will make the rest of them go off too.November 11, 2014 7:12 pm at 7:12 pm #1041844
Interjection, you are making very hurtful and unsubstantiated accusations! And you are contradicting yourself. If its not the parents fault why should the other kids turn out the same. Each kid has their own choices to make.November 11, 2014 7:14 pm at 7:14 pm #1041845Chochom-ibberParticipant
No one is saying to kick a child out to die and fully fend for himself. There is still monetary and emotional suport from a distance. Just as @Randomex stated, Yishmael was sent out with his mother (I guess another mehalech is to kick the mother out as well). He was sent out with supervision. A child that is sent away must still be looked after but from a safe distance away from the other children. No one is arguing on that. After all, we misbehaved and Hashem has thrown us out of his Home and Land. He still watches & protects us.November 11, 2014 8:11 pm at 8:11 pm #1041846
there actually is a dvar torah in parsha parable (something like that from r mordechai kamenetsky)(last week) where he brings a letter where the parents kicked out their son who went off the derech and they brought the son back by taking him to the tziyun of a rebbe instead of going with his friends to atlantic city and the friends got into a bad traffic accidentNovember 11, 2014 8:46 pm at 8:46 pm #1041847
but children who are kicked out generally never come back.November 11, 2014 9:04 pm at 9:04 pm #1041848zahavasdadParticipant
Sometimes when a kid is kicked out, the other kids become sympathetic to the kicked out sibling and blame the parents.
Its really bad to take a story from the torah and say this applies exactly to my situation and follow exactly what happend in the Torah Story (Should one for example go to the Vatican or Mecca and offer Karbonos like Eliyahu did at Har HaCarmel? Of course not) Eliyahu HaNavi is not you and you are not like AvrahamNovember 11, 2014 10:20 pm at 10:20 pm #1041849secretagentyidMember
@chochom–, personally, if I would have been sent away at that time amd goven money from my parents, i wouod have simply used it all on drugs, and progressively gotten into heavier substances. As ot happens, i have a friend whose parents did. Exactly as you suggest. Their son (after havin been in rehab twice) is a drug addict, drug dealer, and living with a shiksa. No, it probably is not the right thing to do in the majority of cases. Think about it, youre sending this kid away from whatever restrictions are left at home, giving him money, and letting him do as he wishes. What do you think will happen? If he was doing anything bad at home, it will only be worse outside of the house.November 11, 2014 10:23 pm at 10:23 pm #1041850hwarren1949Member
Actually, in New York you can be required to support your child until age 21 – but once he or she is 18, you cannot tell him or her what to do. Crazy, no?November 11, 2014 10:42 pm at 10:42 pm #1041851HaLeiViParticipant
Actually, if I know that I will be answered like Eliyahu Hanavi I would.November 11, 2014 10:42 pm at 10:42 pm #1041852☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
People are not supposed to kick their kid out because of the negative influence he is making on the other kids. That would probably put the nail in his coffin
It might or might not, but presumably they’re worried about not putting the other children in coffins.
You are naive if you think kicking a kid out for being a negative influence will leave a positive impression on the other children.
It’s not about making a positive impression, it’s about removing a negative influence.November 12, 2014 12:10 am at 12:10 am #1041853
Is it right to sacrifice one’s child to save the other children?November 12, 2014 12:43 am at 12:43 am #1041854
Hopefully they’re not being sacrificed! You don’t just throw a kid out without making alternate accommodations. Sometimes you unfortunately have no choice . If a rebellious teen is for instance, showing inappropriate pictures or videos to their siblings, or being openly mechallel shabbos in your house. If the teen is respectful to your rules but just not living up to the household standards there’s no reason to send them away in my opinion.November 12, 2014 7:26 am at 7:26 am #1041855interjectionParticipant
If a kid is not listening to your rules, there’s always a reason. Kids don’t act up because everything was rosy. By kicking out the kid you’re ignoring the problem instead of fixing it so whatever problem made the first kid go off, even if it wasn’t the parents fault (could be the school, shul, a neighbor) that problem still exists and has potential to turn off the other kids.November 12, 2014 11:45 am at 11:45 am #1041856
Sending a kid to live elsewhere( I dont condone kicking out) is a last resort! When you have tried everything to work out whatever the problem is.November 12, 2014 11:55 am at 11:55 am #1041857TheGoqParticipant
+10000000000 interjectionNovember 12, 2014 1:08 pm at 1:08 pm #1041858
Kids don’t act up because everything is rosy, but sometimes the problem has nothing to do with the parents and is beyond their help.
If a child is kicked out, either he will accept it and start living his own life that doesn’t involve his family, or he will feel rejected and become angry or depressed. If he becomes depressed, he will give up, and if he becomes angry he may just go out and do every bad thing he can think of. And if he does that, he may be ashamed to return even if he wants to.November 12, 2014 5:40 pm at 5:40 pm #1041859BarryLS1Participant
DaasYochid: I’m probably a bit older than you and I have seen, way too often, parents kicking a child out instead of dealing with their issues proactively. I’ve also seen Yeshiva’s doing the same. Most of the time, when a kid has serious issues, there are specific reasons behind it and they can be dealt with effectively.
I guess when you’ve been actively involved in a community as long as I have, you see a lot more than most people.November 12, 2014 6:37 pm at 6:37 pm #1041860
Just to clarify: I am not in any shape or form saying that kids should ever be sent away from home! But if you see someone who unfortunately did have to do it there usually is a very strong reason for it. And it came after much heartache and trying everything else. Msy everyone have much nachas from their kids and themselves!November 12, 2014 11:59 pm at 11:59 pm #1041861tzviki16Member
do what’s best for the kid.
if there was lots of love from the beginning he would’ve been ok.November 13, 2014 12:11 am at 12:11 am #1041862
No. Sometimes there’s lots of love from the family, but everything else is bad.
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