May 25, 2014 7:39 pm at 7:39 pm #612870
I was in Brooklyn this past Shabbos. My host wanted to go daven at a new shul that had just opened, to see what it was like. Fine, so we walk over to the new shul. Nice building (although not finished yet). I met the Rav after davening, and he seems very nice as well.
Here was my problem: I was sitting near the back corner. There was a door there, which led to a room which wasn’t finished yet, but will apparently be a kitchen. There was a huge kiddush club going on THE ENTIRE DAVENING! The shul was going to have a massive kiddush to celebrate the opening, and these people were in there the entire time drinking and taking food meant for the kiddush. They didn’t even have the decency to close the door most of the time!
There were little kids! Kids sitting in there, eating herring while we were davening, leining, and listening to the Rav speak! Older men, with white hair, were joining them! Then there were the younger, married men. I even heard one guy say, “Be careful, or there won’t be enough left for the main kiddush!”
After davening, at the kiddush, it turned out the guy was right. They had eaten enough cholent that the bowls they put on each table were barely half full. One guy who I’d seen going in and out of the room the entire davening actually came over to my table, and tried to get the cholent bown to take some when there were people at the table who hadn’t gotten. I purposely ignored him, and said loudly to someone, “He was in the kiddush club all davening, and now there’s not enough! I won’t let him take before everyone else gets!”
I asked someone if this was a normal occurrence when the minyan had been in someone’s home. He replied that it was. I asked my host if the Rav would do something, and he replied, “He’s very easy-going, and avoids confrontation. I don’t think he’ll be able to stop them.”
I was horrified. Is this the chinuch people are giving their children? To show them that whiskey is more important than davening? And how can a Rav let it slide?
I honestly don’t know if I’ll ever want to daven in that shul again.
edited so that your point won’t be lost in politics.May 25, 2014 8:15 pm at 8:15 pm #1072023
Can you tell us which shul it is? I want a good herring and cholent!
Seriously, though, I wouldn’t daven there either. There are really two points to be made here; one about gluttony and chinuch, as you said, but the other about selecting a shul/kehillah.
A chevrah which wants a kiddush club will choose a shul with a Rav who let’s it go, and if they’re the ones choosing the Rav, it’s even easier.
Yes, of course the Rav is wrong as well, but face it, if he would put his foot down, they’ll either choose another Rav or another shul. We don’t live in the shtetl any longer.May 25, 2014 8:26 pm at 8:26 pm #1072024YW Moderator-29 👨💻Moderator
Unfortunately, in my shul the kiddush club is headed up by a man who also happens to be my children’s pediatrician. Talk about making someone sick . . .May 25, 2014 8:27 pm at 8:27 pm #1072025The FrumguyParticipant
If people want to know the main reason why we don’t have the Beis Hamikdash rebuilt, it’s probably this. If we don’t know how to treat a Mikdash Me’at then what will be with the REAL thing??? Truly disgusting.
I’d love to hear from anyone who is for “Kiddush Clubs.”May 25, 2014 8:47 pm at 8:47 pm #1072026
DY: They can’t choose another Rav. There is no board for this shul – the Rav runs the shul. He (or his family) put up the money for it. It’s his shul.
If people want to find another shul – let them! If every Rav would put down his foot about kiddush clubs, they wouldn’t be able to find a place!
Frumguy: You make a good point, although I still believe it’s sinas chinam that’s preventing Mashiach from coming.
I’m reminded of a story that my Rosh Yeshiva, R’ Bender, wrote about. It was in the Chinuch Roundtable, and then in the sefer “Chinuch with Chessed” which was published. I have it in front of me, so I can write it word-for-word how R’ Bender wrote it:
A parent came to me to complain about the lack of decorum on the part of his third grade son during davening. We shmuessed for a while about much of the aforementioned and that was the end of the story, or so I thought. Ten days later, I found myself davening in a local shul. After the seventh aliyah, I found myself literally pushed over by someone in a hurry – the protagonist in the story himself. Where was he heading with two children in tow? To a kiddush club!
R’ Bender’s point is a great one. Your children will never respect davening if they know you go to a kiddush club!May 25, 2014 8:50 pm at 8:50 pm #1072027
Nobody is “for” kiddush clubs, the same way nobody is “for” stealing, or “for” lack of tznius, or “for” any aveiros. It happens anyhow because of the yetzer hara.
I think we should expend more energy thinking about how we can be mechanach ourselves and our children than in ranting to the world about how bad ” yenem” is. Ranting about how bad such behavior is has its place, but hopefully the foundation is much stronger than that.May 25, 2014 8:52 pm at 8:52 pm #1072028
The frumguy. We know why we don’t have the beis hamikdosh and it doesn’t really have to do with kiddush clubs. It’s something called sinas chinam.
Secondly, the kiddush club I go to in my shul only goes on during leining. Therefore we have enough food. It’s a simple rookie mistake to go for that long. It is a new shul…
There can be much wise things going on in a shul than a kiddush club. Leave it alone. We enjoy ourselves.May 25, 2014 8:59 pm at 8:59 pm #1072029YW Moderator-29 👨💻Moderator
A Baal Koreh who is only out during leaning? How do you do that?May 25, 2014 9:17 pm at 9:17 pm #1072030oomisParticipant
I am opposed to Kiddush Clubs for many reasons. My shul does not have one, but I have observed elsewhere how men go our for their “kiddush” and miss half of mussaf after having missed all of the leining. If they are drinking, is that really the proper frame of mind in which to approach the davening? On Simchas Torah, maybe, but certainly not on Shabbos and any other yom tov. It gives children very mixed signals about respect for the Shul and respect for the Rov, when they see their fathers walking out en masse. Worse yet, is when these men are disruptive to those who ARE remaining in Shul, because their conversation can become quite loud and boisterous.
To the poster who says his KC goes on “only” during leining – I am a little confused; what part of leining are you SUPPOSED to miss out on?May 25, 2014 9:49 pm at 9:49 pm #1072031rationalfrummieMember
If there is food available, people and kids will inevitably eat it, especially since no one had breakfast beforehand and davening is long on shabbos.May 25, 2014 9:53 pm at 9:53 pm #1072032
A Baal Koreh who is only out during leaning? How do you do that?
If there is food available, people and kids will inevitably eat it, especially since no one had breakfast beforehand and davening is long on shabbos.
Not with proper middos/chinuch.May 25, 2014 10:04 pm at 10:04 pm #1072033rationalfrummieMember
what sort of chinuch would you need to make people stop doing that? Do you mean a shiur from the rav about the importance of davening, locking all the food up, or some other way?May 25, 2014 10:16 pm at 10:16 pm #1072034
No, rf, although that might be necessary, I just meant that some people (hopefully most) have enough mentchlichkeit, based on a proper chinuch, that they will control themselves even if they’re hungry.May 25, 2014 10:31 pm at 10:31 pm #1072035popa_bar_abbaParticipant
Please say which shul. I’m a’dyin’ to go. (I’ll daven elsewhere first.)May 25, 2014 11:18 pm at 11:18 pm #1072036
This makes me so nauseous, really. I’ve B”H never seen such action, such abandon, derision, mockery toward HaShem as you described. Totally disgusting, revolting. How can they not be ashamed of themselves, letting their animalistic urges goad them to such public disgrace? Is that a Rav? Is he Jewish? Any decent person should want to get up and shout out and protest. He’s gonna lose his job?!? So what? HaShem’s honor is at stake. Has a Jewish house of prayer been taken over by a bunch of hungry animals?!?
Sorry. Totally disgusting. (I have a whopping headache, I’d rant more if I’d be able to)May 25, 2014 11:29 pm at 11:29 pm #1072037
Just buy extra food. Or save some for yourself during davening 🙂May 25, 2014 11:50 pm at 11:50 pm #1072038
DaMoshe, as I wrote, “A chevrah which wants a kiddush club will choose a shul with a Rav who lets it go”.
Sure, in theory, if no shul would allow it, it wouldn’t exist. But l’maaseh, if every shul would ban it, another shul would open which allowed it.
I think we’re really in agreement here. We both find the behavior unacceptable, and feel that the Rav should put his foot down. I just want to add that we need a mehalach of how to deal with this unfortunate reality, and not be satisfied with only expressing our indignation.May 26, 2014 12:36 am at 12:36 am #1072039
The FrumGuy- I am very pro kiddush clubs as they give members a chance to catch up on the hoc, which they don’t have time for during the rest of the week. They won’t see their friends for a week, but Hashem will still be there after every else finishes davening. It’s more logical to talk with friends and then Hashem, as opposed to just God with no chance for friends.May 26, 2014 1:02 am at 1:02 am #1072040nfgo3Member
I know someone who likes the idea of a kiddush club, and I must say, I think he is utterly wrong. He is, for the most part, sensible and very dedicated, but for some reason, he thinks our shul needs to have a select group of men walk out during the rabbi’s d’var Torah to drink schaaps. What could be more insulting to our wonderful rabbi? I cannot figure it out.May 26, 2014 2:48 am at 2:48 am #1072041
Mod29. Glad your p paying attention. I join bein gavra legavra. My shul goes nuts with the mi shebairachsMay 26, 2014 2:51 am at 2:51 am #1072042
I will be Dan Lkaf Zchus the Rav. He probably did make a protest, it just got deleted. Just like my post voicing my slight displeasure at this offense to Kvod Shamaim that got deleted.
You can resubmit if you change one questionable word.May 26, 2014 3:06 am at 3:06 am #1072043MachaaMakerMember
I heard about a minyan where by laining so many people went downstairs for kiddush club that the Baal Koreh brought the Torah downstairs and continued laining thereMay 26, 2014 3:26 am at 3:26 am #1072044
Sorry Mod(x). I don’t know what word offended you. Aren’t you able to just edit one word? I have no recollection of writing one nasty bad word. It was just showing my disgust towards this utter contempt and foul behavior in HaShem’s house. (I did not save it, I was sure you’d approve and not side with the party goers, was I wrong?!?)
doneMay 26, 2014 3:30 am at 3:30 am #1072045
I was there. It ruined the entire kiddush.May 26, 2014 3:56 am at 3:56 am #1072046lesschumrasParticipant
Our shul used to have a kc ( I was not a member). We hired a new rav years back.He said he wouldn’t accept the position unless the kc ended. He got his way.May 26, 2014 11:33 am at 11:33 am #1072047TheGoqParticipant
Whats funny (not) is that these people are deluding themselves that they are going to shul they are not they are going to a bar.May 26, 2014 5:46 pm at 5:46 pm #1072048
Goq. You’re arguing about kiddushim, not kiddush clubs.
editedMay 26, 2014 6:51 pm at 6:51 pm #1072049
the plumber-not true. Not all kiddushim have alcoholic drinks (a bar), while all kiddish clubs do. Therefore it is more mistaber to say that she is talking about kiddush clubs.
Additionaly, The Goq mentioned that these people are going to a bar not shul. This applies by kiddush clubs. By kiddushim, they go to a bar and shul.(on the tzad that kidushim are also bars, contrary to what I said above. Therefore it is proved that The Goq is talking about kiddush clubs meema nafshecha)May 26, 2014 7:30 pm at 7:30 pm #1072050
If the kiddush doesn’t hav alcohol, then the kc doesn’t either. It’s simple logicMay 26, 2014 8:21 pm at 8:21 pm #1072051
That’s not true though. And even if it is, ayen my second point.May 26, 2014 10:14 pm at 10:14 pm #1072052MachaaMakerMember
Pulsing flower is saying goodMay 26, 2014 11:01 pm at 11:01 pm #1072053
Speak it out.May 27, 2014 3:26 am at 3:26 am #1072054TheGoqParticipant
And later before he go’s shluffen after their wifes cholent which is probably not as good as the shuls ( dont ask me why it just isnt) he can tell her if she complains that hes a lousy father stop hockin me a chainik at least i go to shul!!May 28, 2014 3:08 pm at 3:08 pm #1072055old manParticipant
I have never been to a kiddush club and my shul does not have one.
That said, it seems that these kiddush clubs in America, although not a new phenomenon, have grown in size and number lately, and I will propose an explanation. It cuts across modern, yeshivish, or whatever flavor the shul subscribes to.
Yiddishkeit in America is flourishing to an astounding degree. Whether it is in torah study, financial success, or political clout, it has never been better. The result is that the frum/orthodox social structure is so confident, stable and secure, that simply belonging to it is enough to ensure personal and familial stability and satisfaction.
The ultimate consequence is that what counts is whether one is considered a member of that social structure, and not whether he observes all of its rules. If one wears the right uniform, sends his children to the right yeshiva, gives tzedakah to the right institutions, walks the walk and talks the talk, he is “in the club”, accepted, respected, even admired.
The social system will then not require him to do business honestly, be modest and humble, and have true love of Jews even if they are “not unzerer”. If he has money, his kid will never be kicked out of yeshiva for being chutzpadik. His kids will get good shidduchim. And finally, the system will certainly not demand from him to get to shul on time and listen to the leining and haftorah. After all, why should he? He is “in” and that’s what counts, for everything. He has stability, success and kavod.
This is how yiddishkeit runs in America and probably worldwide.
It’s all about the image and not the substance. Get used to it, the kiddush club is not going away so quickly, it is only a symptom and not the disease. If it does, rest assured something else, maybe more sinister, will replace it.June 3, 2014 12:13 am at 12:13 am #1072056
I saw a terrible sight. I was in shul last week, during the Kiddush and someone started davening!! oh my! I will never Kiddush ( what’s the verb ?) in this shul again! 🙂June 5, 2014 2:08 pm at 2:08 pm #1072057ymbyiMember
When I was much younger, my father used to step out for about 5 minutes (really no more) to have a lechayim with a few of his friends. I went with my father once and he joined a few men and they made 1 lechayim, had a piece of harrying on a cracker and went back in time for Av HaRachamim.
My father even found a Rishon (I do not remember who) who said that in his time it was the custom of the young people to “taste liquor” before Musaf. So the custom goes way back and if done in a respectful manner, it is not the end of the world.June 6, 2014 4:28 pm at 4:28 pm #1072058
“My father even found a Rishon (I do not remember who) who said that in his time it was the custom of the young people to “taste liquor” before Musaf. So the custom goes way back and if done in a respectful manner, it is not the end of the world.”
One crucial question, did the rishon say he agreed with those “young people” or not? People doing things wrong years back does not an acceptable custom make.April 13, 2015 5:13 pm at 5:13 pm #1072060
I was in Brooklyn for the 2nd days of Pesach. My father began davening at the shul I mentioned in the OP regularly, so I davened there over Yom Tov. Things have not improved. Although, due to Pesach, there was no kiddush club, the amount of talking that goes on in the shul is astonishing! It’s got to be one of the worst I’ve ever seen. Not only that, but when the Rabbi tries to quiet some of the people, they laughed openly about it! Such chutzpah! Not only was there talking, but one person said some extremely inappropriate things out loud in middle of leining.
I asked my father about it, and he says it really bothers him. Apparently some people approached the Rav about it, and he said he’s trying. He’s not confrontational at all, and isn’t putting up a firm stance on the matter, so nothing is being accomplished.
It’s really sad to see such a thing. A beautiful new shul, that can’t have a decent davening because people can’t keep their mouths closed for a little while.
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