“Kiddush Hashem” Does Not Mean Looking Good by the Goyim

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  • #1768954

    Joseph
    Participant

    FYI

    #1769017

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Sometimes it does, fyi

    #1769022

    adocs
    Participant

    Correct

    #1769040

    Joseph
    Participant

    LB: By coincidence, if that. Often a Kiddush Hashem is doing what the Goyim don’t like and think is crazy and wrong.

    #1769045

    Grey matter
    Participant

    I’ve heard this claim before. It is false but I won’t bother to bring sources until you do.

    #1769049

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Sometimes it does, fyi

    They frequently overlap, but it’s not the definition, and sometimes, a kiddush Hashem could be caused by doing something the goyim don’t like, or vice versa.

    #1769052

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I’ve heard this claim before. It is false but I won’t bother to bring sources until you do.

    ונקדשתי בתוך בני ישראל.

    Now your turn.

    #1769056

    JJ Badchen
    Participant

    A Kiddush Hashem means acting like a Yid is Suppose to act, Because at the end of the day all Goyim know what is right for Yidden to do & what’s wrong, way more then we think

    #1769058

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    A Kiddush Hashem means acting like a Yid is Suppose to act

    There’s a very strong association, but where do you get that that is what it means?

    #1769060

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    While true that isn’t what kiddish hashem means we do want Hashem to “look good” by the goyim, a way to do that is for us to look good.

    The first example that comes to mind is Both Avraham and Moshe rabbeinu used the argument of “what would the goyim say” חָלִ֣לָה לָּ֔ךְ הֲשֹׁפֵט֙ כָּל־הָאָ֔רֶץ ) לֹ֥א יַעֲשֶׂ֖ה מִשְׁפָּֽט and לָמָּה֩ יֹאמְר֨וּ מִצְרַ֜יִם לֵאמֹ֗ר בְּרָעָ֤ה הֽוֹצִיאָם֙ לַהֲרֹ֤ג אֹתָם֙ בֶּֽהָרִ֔ים)

    #1769064

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    While true that isn’t what kiddish hashem means

    There are lots of good things we are supposed to do. This thread is about kiddush Hashem, not all of the other things.

    #1769066

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    To be more specific, this thread is about what kiddush Hashem means, not about some possible ways of causing a kiddush Hashem.

    #1769067

    Sam Klein
    Participant

    Greet people with a smile when your walking down there street band hold them door open for an older person who needs help.

    Be mekadesh Hashems name by acting nicely and helping others including strangers

    #1769071

    Whatsaktome
    Participant

    There are a number of things In halacha that we find that a chilul hashem does mean (at least In certain instances) not looking good in the eyes of the hidden, take for example not killing givon (rambam hilchos melachim perek vov)

    #1769078

    Avi K
    Participant

    Kiddush Hashem (and the opposite) can even be in front of non-observant Jews. Rav Aharon Soloveichik said that it involves acting ethically even where the Halacha does not technically require it. See on this Be’er haGola Choshen Mishpat 388:5),

    #1769079

    YDB
    Participant

    In general the Halacha states 3 types of Kiddush Hashem.

    1) Given up ones life for a mitzvah that’s expected of you to give your life for
    2) Doing a mitzvah for pure reasons (even privately)
    3) Doing a special mitzvah publicly and acting לפנים משורת הדין

    A Jewish girl becoming a city council women and a Rav speaking against vaccinations may be nice/ugly to the general public but they don’t fit into the category kiddush/chillul Hashem.

    #1769090

    Toi
    Participant

    The Gemara in the middle of the last perek of Baba Kama, approx. daf 114-115, when dealing with gezel/to’us akum, is clear that causing a goy to think badly of a Yid is a chillul Hashem. Obviously what they glean from watching us does count.

    #1769088

    Mistykins
    Participant

    It doesn’t, but if one can bring glory to Hashem while looking good to the goyim, then go for it. Be polite. Don’t let your kids run amok. Look for ways to get along with your neighbors.

    Because the opposite looks bad to both goyim and to Hashem. People who are rude, break laws, etc. get into the news and on Facebook, they make everyone look bad, and where is the holiness in that?

    It’s up to every Yid to life an upright and respectable life. That will both look good to Goyim and bring glory to Hashem.

    #1769157

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Does going into a Hindu Temple in NYC and destroying all the Idols a Kiddush Hashem or a Chilul Hashem?

    #1769202

    manitou
    Participant

    Of course it means that Hashem’s name should be sanctified in front of the goyim as well as the yidden.
    The Navi Yechezkel says so many times that the geula will happen when Hashem says enough to the chillul Hashem in the eyes of the goyim.
    לָכֵ֞ן אֱמֹ֣ר לְבֵֽית־יִשְׂרָאֵ֗ל כֹּ֤ה אָמַר֙ אֲדֹנָ֣י יְהוִ֔ה לֹ֧א לְמַעַנְכֶ֛ם אֲנִ֥י עֹשֶׂ֖ה בֵּ֣ית יִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל כִּ֤י אִם־לְשֵׁם־קָדְשִׁי֙ אֲשֶׁ֣ר חִלַּלְתֶּ֔ם בַּגּוֹיִ֖ם אֲשֶׁר־בָּ֥אתֶם שָֽׁם׃

    וְקִדַּשְׁתִּ֞י אֶת־שְׁמִ֣י הַגָּד֗וֹל הַֽמְחֻלָּל֙ בַּגּוֹיִ֔ם אֲשֶׁ֥ר חִלַּלְתֶּ֖ם בְּתוֹכָ֑ם וְיָדְע֨וּ הַגּוֹיִ֜ם כִּי־אֲנִ֣י יְהוָ֗ה נְאֻם֙ אֲדֹנָ֣י יְהוִ֔ה בְּהִקָּדְשִׁ֥י בָכֶ֖ם לְעֵינֵיהֶֽם׃

    #1769160

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    DY
    “There are lots of good things we are supposed to do. This thread is about kiddush Hashem, not all of the other things.”

    So that isnt complletly true
    read the OP, Jseph is NOT telling us waht Kiddush Hashem means, he is just telling us what it isnt. ““Kiddush Hashem” Does Not Mean Looking Good by the Goyim”
    One might mistankingly conclude (and knowing Joseph this s why he framed it that way) that there was no reason to look good by the Goyim. To which I am poiting out that isnt true.

    If I said “Eating in the sukkah does not mean sleeping in it, FYI” It would be very on topic for you to say “True, but sleeping in the sukkah is also important”
    I dont think it would make sense for me to then say “There are lots of good things we are supposed to do. This thread is about eating in the sukkah, not all of the other things.”

    #1769270

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Ubiq,

    Is there a מצוה to look good by the גוים?

    Meaning to say

    Is there a מצוה to be a high ranking position in the goyishe velt?

    #1769250

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Joseph: Okay you’re right; you’re talking about the definition of Kiddish Hashem. I’m more referring to the outcome.

    #1769229

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “I dont think it would make sense for me to then say “There are lots of good things we are supposed to do. This thread is about eating in the sukkah, not all of the other things.””
    Except that dwelling in the sukkah does include sleeping. If you wrote a post worded in the way you used as an example, it would be your fault for wording it poorly.

    In truth, “kiddush Hashem” has clearly become a colloquialism in the 21st century to mean “makes us look good to the goyim.” Whether or not that lines up at all with its halachic definition is the subject of this thread, but I don’t see any point in denying the reality that that’s its most common usage today. I think what Joseph and DY are getting at is that people should be able to separate its slang usage from its halachic meaning, which some posters seem unable to do.

    “Does going into a Hindu Temple in NYC and destroying all the Idols a Kiddush Hashem or a Chilul Hashem?”
    Why would it be a chilul Hashem? (Not rhetorical; I want you to give me the issurim you think are involved here).

    #1769283

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    CA

    “Is there a מצוה to look good by the גוים?”

    I’m not sure what you mean by “מצוה” no I dont think it is one of the taryag mitzvos, and no there is no beracha “…asher kidishanu bemitzvosav vetzivanu likach high ranking position in the goyishe velt”

    but it one hundred percent is a positive thing that goyim look up to Jews, As the passuk says “ושמרתם ועשיתם כי הוא חכמתכם ובינתכם לעיני העמים אשר ישמעון את כל החקים האלה ואמרו רק עם חכם ונבון הגוי הגדול הזה ” (to be clear I’m not saying taking a high ranking position is an example of that per se, my point of bringing the passuk, is that we DO care what goyim think of us, goyim saying “עם חכם ונבון הגוי הגדול הזה” is a good thing) This idea that we don’t care what Goyim think is not true.
    There are even more examples of the reverse, ie having the Goyim look down at us (and by extension Hashem r”l) is a bad thing examples were brought above. Tachanun is full of such phrases ” לָמָּה יאמְרוּ הַגּויִם אַיֵּה נָא אֱלקיהֶם” “הַבֵּט מִשָּׁמַיִם וּרְאֵה כִּי הָיִינוּ לַעַג וָקֶלֶס בַּגּוֹיִם” and as we conclude ” עָזְרֵנוּ אֱלֹהֵי יִשְׁעֵנוּ עַל דְּבַר כְּבוֹד שְׁמֶךָ. וְהַצִּילֵנוּ וְכַפֵּר עַל חַטֹּאתֵינוּ לְמַעַן שְׁמֶךָ:” There is a lack of kavod shomayim when Jews are suffering, persecuted, downtrodden, looked down upon etc. Thus conversely ,it kavod shomayim when Jews are doing well.

    Inyanei dyoma, “looking good by the goyim” even affects haclachic practice (!) The Rema 554:17 says וכן במקום שדרים בין העכו”ם לא יחלוץ כי אם ברחוב היהודים וכן נהגו. Ie when in a goyish street, you can wear shoes on tishaa baav. the MB explains משום העכו”מ שמלעיגים עלינו:.

    Again, this isnt strictly speaking “Kiddush Hashem” (thouigh to be fair, phrases change we don’t use the term “chasid” the way chazal do,) and I’m not saying it is a “מצוה” to wear shoes on a goyish street on Tisha b’av. But we very much DO care what Goyim think of us, the Torah and H”KBH

    #1769286

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Does going into a Hindu Temple in NYC and destroying all the Idols a Kiddush Hashem or a Chilul Hashem?

    I believe you are making the common mistake of confusing eivah with chillul Hashem.

    The other common mistake is to call anything which causes one to be embarrassed to be a Jew a chillul Hashem.

    Again, these these frequently overlap, but not always.

    #1769288

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    To address a number of posters who pointed out that there’s chillul Hashem in front of non frum Jews or non Jews, yes, that’s true but it’s not the definition and probably not the ikkar inyan either.

    #1769289

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    One might mistankingly conclude (and knowing Joseph this s why he framed it that way) that there was no reason to look good by the Goyim.

    Meh.

    However, one might correctly conclude that there are times when the proper course of action is indeed one which doesn’t look good in front of the goyim.

    #1769290

    Health
    Participant

    I think Joe started this topic because nowadays the Frum media tends to portray alot of it’s Headlines – “Kiddush Hashem”. And when you read the article – it’s Not a “Kiddush Hashem”!

    #1769297

    DovidBT
    Participant

    Your new neighbor, who knows nothing about Judaism, knocks on your door on Saturday morning, tells you his car won’t start, and asks you to drive him to an important job interview. No one else is available to do this.

    When you politely explain why you can’t do that, is it a Kiddush Hashem?

    #1769298

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    NC

    “Except that dwelling in the sukkah does include sleeping.”
    Yep, thats why I was careful to word it my way .

    “If you wrote a post worded in the way you used as an example, it would be your fault for wording it poorly.”
    Yes! Exactly! and it would be appropriate for you to clarify the potential error even if “sleeping in the sukah” was not the subject I opened with, and thats not what I was discussing (as an aside eating and sleeping arent 100% equivalent, we dont make a beracha on sleeping, a snack is allowed outside a sukah but a nap isnt. nonetheless, I agree with you 100% that correcting a possible mistaken inference in my post (whether intentionally poorly worded, unintentionally poorly worded, or even properly worded, but still one that could lead to a mistaken inference) is absolutely warranted )

    “I think what Joseph and DY are getting at is that people should be able to separate its slang usage from its halachic meaning, which some posters seem unable to do.”

    Fair enough. Though I don’t think that is what Joseph was getting at. I think Joseph was trying to say/hint/imply that We don’t care what the goyim think of us. and even if that was NOT what he was trying to say, It definitely could be interpreted that way. so I cautioned that while strictly speaking Joseph was correct (as I opened my very first comment on this thread “While true…”), I cautioned not to make the mistaken inference that his post might lead to (and that I believe he intended)

    I’m not sure if we are arguing.

    If you are saying that look there are these two noble ideas 1) kiddush Hashem and 2) looking good by the Goyim. We need to come up wit h a new term for the latter to separate it from the former., I wouldn’t have commented, that isnt very interesting to me
    On the other hand if you are saying there is 1 noble idea (ie in this thread, obviously “There are lots of good things we are supposed to do” as DY so helpfully put it). Namely that of Kiddush Hasehm and there is NO good thing to “Look good by the Goyim,” THEN we ARE arguing, and I provided some examples to buttress my point

    #1769323

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    DY

    “Meh.”

    I can live with “meh” not all my posts have to be exciting
    Though interestingly my “meh” comment prompted challenges of one sort or other from several posters.
    Even though I’m not even sure If I’m arguing with anybody

    Health
    “because nowadays the Frum media tends to portray alot of it’s Headlines – “Kiddush Hashem”. And when you read the article – it’s Not a “Kiddush Hashem””

    what I think is worse as that Most of those stories are not even a “Kiddush Hashem” in the 21 st century colloquialism sort of way. big deal a frum person got a promotion? That BH happens daily

    #1769382

    Joseph
    Participant

    Does going into a Hindu Temple in NYC and destroying all the Idols a Kiddush Hashem or a Chilul Hashem?

    Kiddush Hashem.

    #1769393

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Ubiq,

    My comment was off of your comment stating

    “If I said “Eating in the sukkah does not mean sleeping in it, FYI” It would be very on topic for you to say “True, but sleeping in the sukkah is also important”
    I dont think it would make sense for me to then say “There are lots of good things we are supposed to do. This thread is about eating in the sukkah, not all of the other things.”“

    Both eating and sleeping in the sukkah are part of the מצוה of
    ״תשובו כעין תדורו״
    So I’m not sure why you brought that up that’s why I asked if it was a מצוה

    #1769411

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    CA

    Ah, but my imaginary thread wasn’t about ״תשובו כעין תדורו״ , it was about, and I quote, “Eating in the sukkah ….”

    Both eating and sleeping in the sukkah are part of the מצוה of
    ״תשובו כעין תדורו״

    I couldn’t agree more!
    much like Kiddush Hashem and “Looking good by the Goyim” are both part of a yid’s avodas Hashem

    “So I’m not sure why you brought that up ”
    Sure glad to explain! Let me know where I lose you

    1) Joseph wrote, that “Kiddush Hashem” Does Not Mean Looking Good by the Goyim .
    2) I granted that his point was true, but noted that “Looking good by the goyim was important too”
    3) To which DY said ““There are lots of good things we are supposed to do. This thread is about kiddush Hashem, not all of the other things.”
    4) To which I replied with a mashal. In a thread about Eating in sukkah (note not a thread about ״תשובו כעין תדורו״) It is 100% appropriate to mention sleeping in a sukkah, as you correctly note while of course not eating sleeping is very closely related to eating in sukkah. (all the more so if I mentioned sleeping in OP, it is certainly appropriate to clarify that sleeping is part of the mitzvah. Similarly if Joseph mentions “Looking Good by the Goyim ” My pointing out that that too is important, is not comparable to bringing up ” lots of good things ” It is related to the subject at hand, it is literally mentioned up there in the title, go look it is still there! It is not at all an example of “a lot of good things”

    Hope that helps, If it doesnt, that’s ok Don’t get caught up in the mashal if it is too confusing move on to and absorb my main point,
    Namely: looking good in front of the Goyim is a good thing.

    #1769468

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “Ah, but my imaginary thread wasn’t about ״תשובו כעין תדורו״ , it was about, and I quote, “Eating in the sukkah ….””

    You keep getting dinged on this because your “imaginary thread” is not a good mashal. You admit you would be wording it poorly if you wrote it that way. Joseph did not word this thread in a comparable way.

    The OP is a response to recent articles using “kiddush Hashem” to describe a Chassidishe guy changing a tire (no joke) and a frum woman getting an important position in US government. The headlines were using it in the colloquial manor I mentioned above. Nobody is arguing that there’s no inyan in looking good by goyim; they might be arguing that there’s no halachic inyan in itself.

    #1769514

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    I think there is general agreement that the term, as used by headline writers, has become a journalistic shorthand for expressing pride and respect for everything from little acts of kindness from a yid to a goy to significant professional and secular accomplishments by yidden. We tend NOT to use the term “Kiddush Hashem” when a yid achieves a significant milestone in limudei torah or new heights of hidur mitzvah (aka “Kiddush Hashem: 6 year old yeshiva bochur in Willy memorizes entire tanach with meforshim” or “Kiddush Hashem: Yid pays $13,000 for Calabrian Esrog”)

    #1769591

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “You keep getting dinged on this because your “imaginary thread” is not a good mashal.”

    Nu Nu

    ” Nobody is arguing that there’s no inyan in looking good by goyim;”
    Fantastic! So we agree, shalom al yisroel

    #1769688

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “Fantastic! So we agree, shalom al yisroel”
    I think we always did. I just think myself and others didn’t really see where you were going with your mashal.

    Might I suggest this one instead: people have come to (erroneously) use the word “muktzeh” to refer to any issur on shabbos, not just the issur of muktzeh itself (eg. “you can’t carry here. There’s no eiruv; it’s muktzeh.). If a thread sought to comment on this by saying “Muktzeh does not mean any action which is assur on shabbos” it might be confusing in the way you claim.

    This being said, I didn’t get the confusion with this thread. If you kept up with the YWN headlines, it was clear what it was commenting upon. It’s really gotten out of hand.

    #1769780

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    ” I just think myself and others didn’t really see where you were going with your mashal.”

    Don’t get caught up on the mashal, in general a mashal is meant to help understand a point (in this case the point is what that comment is doing on this thread, is my original comment really so out of place that i need a mashal to explain why its here?), if you understood without it thats fine too

    your muktzeh idea would work too, though I dont really understand your phrasing a more apt comparison would be:

    joseph: “Muktzeh does not mean an issur to carry, FYI”
    Ubiquitin ” True, but caryying is assur too”
    DY: “There are a lot of thing that are assur on shabbos, this thread is about Muktzeh not those other things”

    “If you kept up with the YWN headlines, it was clear what it was commenting upon.”
    1) not everyone keeps up w/ YWN headlines
    2) IIRC Ive had this argument w/ Joseph before

    ” It’s really gotten out of hand.”
    Agreed

    #1770310

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “joseph: “Muktzeh does not mean an issur to carry, FYI”
    Ubiquitin ” True, but caryying is assur too”
    DY: “There are a lot of thing that are assur on shabbos, this thread is about Muktzeh not those other things””

    There we go. Now I understand. The difference is that a Kiddush Hashem is an actual mitzvah, while looking good to goyim was described by DY as “a good thing that we’re supposed to do.” He was careful to use lashon such that it wouldn’t sound me’akev. Do you think it is an actual mitzvah to look good in front of goyim, or just a practical consideration? Are we all in agreement that a frum woman getting a job in the US government is not truly a “Kiddush Hashem” in the Torahdik sense?

    #1770339

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “Are we all in agreement that a frum woman getting a job in the US government is not truly a “Kiddush Hashem” in the Torahdik sense?”

    I’ll do you one better I don;t think it is even a Kiddush Hashem in the “21st century Colloquial sense”

    “Do you think it is an actual mitzvah to look good in front of goyim, ”

    Ca asked that earlier, no it isnt an actual mitzvah (though depends what you mean by “mitzvah”) but it is more than a practical consideration, as is clear from numerous sources brought above.

    that said back to the actual topic at hand,
    Ive been thinking about Joseph’s OP, which Ive heard before and am not arguing with, although IVe also heard Rabonim, and rosehi yeshiva using the term “Kiddush HAshem” in the way Joseph says not too. Fine, they are using it colloquially, not much of a question there

    but how how do you (and Joseph) understand Rambam Gezeila 11:3 אֲבֵדַת עוֹבֵד עַכּוּ”ם מֻתֶּרֶת שֶׁנֶּאֱמַר “אֲבֵדַת אָחִיךָ”. וְהַמַּחֲזִירָהּ הֲרֵי זֶה עוֹבֵר עֲבֵרָה מִפְּנֵי שֶׁהוּא מַחֲזִיק יַד רִשְׁעֵי עוֹלָם. וְאִם הֶחֱזִירָהּ לְקַדֵּשׁ אֶת הַשֵּׁם כְּדֵי שֶׁיְּפָאֲרוּ אֶת יִשְׂרָאֵל וְיֵדְעוּ שֶׁהֵם בַּעֲלֵי אֱמוּנָה הֲרֵי
    זֶה מְשֻׁבָּח
    ?

    #1771948

    HockPurposesOnly
    Participant

    Joseph: “Does going into a Hindu Temple in NYC and destroying all the Idols a Kiddush Hashem or a Chilul Hashem?

    Kiddush Hashem.”

    I find that hard to believe. Do you have a source?

    #1771971

    Joseph
    Participant

    “I find that hard to believe. Do you have a source?”

    Why do you think that’s hard to believe? Destroying Avoda Zora is a mitzvah. Doing a mitzvah in public is a Kiddush Hashem.

    #1771975

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Nu Joseph
    what are you waiting for?

    Best case scenario you get killed Al Kiddush Hashem which (you claim) is another one of your dreams

    #1771976

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “I find that hard to believe. Do you have a source?”

    Maseches Avodah Zara.

    #1772023

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    It is the halacha to destroy the idols in the Hindu temple, but it would likely do more harm than good, Meaning you would have to go to Jail for doing it and pay restitution for the damage plus the communal harm would be bad

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