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Is there any reason to stop your kids from talking “dirty”; ie. referring to parts of anatomy and human waste, in conversation?
There is a story where a guy was visiting (I believe it was) Rav Yaakov Kaminetzky, and his child was running on the table. The man disciplined the kid.
Rav Yaakov told him he was wrong to discipline the kid. The point of chinnuch is to train kids for when they are older. But older kids do not run on tables, so there is nothing to train in this instance. (The fact that it embarrasses you is not important- you should have gotten better chinnuch and not been bothered).
The same thing seems to apply here. Adults do not talk about human waste; they use 4 letter words and other innuendo. So the kid will not be talking about human waste as an adult. So there is no chinnuch.
You might wonder whether kids who talk about human waste, become adults who use 4 letter words. I don’t know. My experience is that kids whose parents use 4 letter words become adults who do so.
(But more, you might have also wondered whether kids who run on tables become adults who drive recklessly. But Rav Yaakov apparently didn’t think you can make jumps in logic like that.)
So, I let my kids talk how they like. Even in shul, see http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/why-im-going-to-let-my-kids-run-around-in-shul.
unless your fostering a “my tatty lets me say things my friends arent allowed to” attitude, which could end up badly then your.
personally i think there would be an issue of loshon nikee’us and a jewish kid shouldnt be taught to use terms that, although accurate, dont feel right.
Kids take after parents, so set a good example. Parents should express disapproval of foul speech when it is encountered. And if the kid is old enough that this is a problem, it’s probably too late.
Popa: I think it’s okay to do as you do, as long as your kids are unborn. Once you have kids in reality, I’d advise not to do so.
Tatelle, why what?
Because, as you said yourself, kids who get used to dirty language will turn their “human waste” into four letter words. Which I don’t advise.
What I do advise though, is that you come up with a better motzei-shabbos-troll-thread.
I’m not sure why R’ Yakov said that. Interestingly enough, those who didn’t get the chinuch they needed when they were young, turned into adult brats.
I’m sorry I didn’t notice you started it on Friday. Either way, I think you can do better.
popa:
1- If you’re married
2- I disagree, because there is a chinuch element. Adults talk about human waste and various body parts too, when relevant. There are words for them for a reason and there are appropriate times and places for the various words. It’s part of teaching manners.
We don’t Pasken like that Reb Yaakov. (Pah ha ha)
Think of it this way: We bring up our kids to speak clean.
this question baffles me; we train our children not to speak loshon hara, why not nivul peh as well?
It is best to “teach” children to make good choices from the get go. So when you teach a child that what they are saying or doing is not nice or not proper you are teaching them to make a choice to filter and to choose another way to play or to make jokes or whatever it is they are doing. In the future as they grow older they will have learned the lesson to make better choice in each area of their life. It also teaches them to respect others just as they would want others to respect them.
If they are running on a table, of course they won’t run on a table when they are older but they will sit on a table which we find unacceptable as well. So by teaching them when they are young that it is unacceptable and why, and asking them to make a different choice we are teaching them the art of making better choices from the get go.
It’s worthwhile to teach children at a young age that they can’t say everything that they feel like saying. That is a message that should stay with them for a lifetime
A gezinte frosk in poonim for leshoynes works for my kinder.
Rav Popa: I humbly beg to differ with you in two points. #1-One shouldn’t be machria the words of a Godol, I think. #2-It is a basic concept to the Torah & Torah-true Jews, the issue of ??? ????? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ??? ????? ????, not just a hidur or “nice” thing. It’s the language that keeps us apart, ???????? ??? ???????, it’s indeed our very essence – ??? ???? ?? ?????. It would be advisable to start at the youngest age possible. Reb Yaakov Ztz”l was obviously not referring to speech refinement.
shusa deyenuka beshuka, oh de’abba oh de’ima.
Zeeskite you write so good for a kid, I shoud get you to write my store ads. You must go to a cheder with good English. Ich mekanei zein.
PBA, at the time that R’ Yaakov made his observation kids actually did kid things and were predictable. Today’s generation of kids are not the same as back then. Mothers are NOT at home raising them, teaching and guiding them. The leniency as well as the problems that kids have to know were not part and parcel of the problems and issues that R’ Yakov and his constituents were faced with.
I am quite sure that no one asked R’ Yaakov whether his child should take medication for ADD or ADHD at the time, nor were there so many sheilos about the shiksas in the home or all the therapies that a child needs. Parents had different roles then, they were more present in their kids lives and they were more a part of their everyday interactions.
So no I don’t disagree with R’ Yaakov, it was an appropriate observation at the time.
Popa: I don’t get you
Your story of Rav Yaakov makes the point that chinuch is about deciding on the appropriate behaviour for different ages. This is an obvious principle.
I wouldn’t discipline, say, a five year old for loud, impolite comments about the lady crossing the street, nor a six year old for knocking down a light fixture while playing with a broomstick, etc, etc, etc (I use ‘survival’ techniques for those, not ‘chinuch’ techniques)
In my experience, your specific application of this principle is incorrect. ‘Talking dirty’ is usual for a 3-4 year old, but not a 7 year old.
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