Kitniyot on Erev Pesach

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  • This topic contains 10 replies, has 6 voices, and was last updated by  laskern 2 weeks ago.
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  • #1717587

    Yabia Omer
    Participant

    Are they asur after hatzot? If so, why? Isn’t that a gzera on a gzera?

    #1717759

    laskern
    Participant

    Kitniyot was assered because of chametz mixup, see Mordechai Pesochim 588, so erev pesach was also included in the gezera.

    #1717772

    Doreish HaEmes
    Participant

    Chometz is already assur min hatorah from chatzos, the gemorah makes a drosha from ‘ach’ since ‘lo sishchat al hachometz,’ we learn from ‘ach’ to divide day in half, half day chometz and half day matzah. The chachomim just moved issur of owning chometz 1 hour back, and issur achilah 2 hours back.

    #1717842

    “a gzera on a gzera” –

    there are three types of gzeros:

    1. gzeros to prevent issur d’oratsa.

    2. gzeros that Rabbonon made that are independent of aany other reason.

    3. gzeros that are part of an issor min hatorah (such as doing a melacha on shabbos – sh’aino tzricha l’gufa).

    #1717834

    YO, you can properly ask about kitniyos on Acharon Shel Pessach, which is m’drabbonon in Chutz L’Arretz.

    #1717798

    The OP question was addressed and answered.

    But the OP also assumes that we do not make a gezeira l’gzeira.

    That is only PARTIALLY right… There are EXCEPTIONS!

    It is important to set the record that the statement ” Isn’t that a gzera on a gzera?” implyingthat we cannot and never make a gzera on a gzera – is wrong!

    The following is a PARTIAl list of exceptions:

    Beitza 3a the gemara itself (after statingthat we don’t make a gezeira l’gezaira on 2b) states that if it is one inclusive gezaira, they we do “expand” the gezeira. This exception “would” (if not for the correct answer) also apply to kitniyos on erev pessach, that the gezaira was expanded to include all times that chometz is forbidden to be eaten, both min hatorah and middrabbonon.

    Tosfos in Brochos 531 adds another exception, that if the first gezaira wouldn’t be kept without the secondary gezaira, they we do add the second gezaira l’gezaira. Again this would also apply, if one could eeat kiutniyos at times of issur, one would continue to use them.

    Meiri on Beitza 37a gives another exception when the gezeira has support from a possuk.

    Tosfos Rid Shabbos 31a gives further exception if the gezeira is an independent one, not related to an issur from Torah, then further gezeira can be added.

    Chacham Tzvi s. 75 says that when a common issue that happens often, a gezera l’gezaira can be added.

    Similar, GRA on O.Ch. s. 252 states that in cases of negligence, we do make gezeira l’gezaira.

    (A little knowledge leads to grave misunderstandings of the knowledge).

    #1718022

    Yo, there are numerous exceptions whenwe DO make a gezaira on a gezaira…as we say in Haggadah: Tzei U’Lmad.

    #1719041

    laskern
    Participant

    The gemora says כולא חדא גזירה היא the chazal asser everything at the same time.

    #1719054

    laskern
    Participant

    כולה חדא גזירה היא is the expression of the gemora .ביצה ג. All was assered at the same time.

    #1719098

    Lasken – lav davka all was assered “at same time”, that is incorrect. I cited that gemarah above and explained it is an ” inclusive” gezeira that expands (even at a later time).

    #1721772

    laskern
    Participant

    I think you like to argue as I mentioned before, I said the same thing. All kitniyas was assered the same time and the future where the reason of mixing up with chametz applies.

    #1722610

    rational
    Participant

    For an Ashkenazi outside Israel, there is no way that kitniyot are permissible on the eighth day of Pesach, this year falling on Shabbat.
    A better question is for Israelis for whom Shabbat is no longer Pesach, could they have cooked kitniyot on yomtov for a Shabbat meal (assuming eruv tavshilin) ?
    Some did, most did not.

    As for erev pesach, kitniyot would be forbidden to eat after the sof zman achilat chametz

    #1722690

    Yabia Omer
    Participant

    Rational:

    Why wouldn’t they eat it on Shabbat? Pesach was over for them.

    Also another question is: could Ashkenazim eat kitniyot in the 2 hours prior to Hatzot that are derbanan? It seems like that would be overly stringent not to eat them.

    #1724764

    charliehall
    Participant

    Not eating kitniyot is not a gezerah. It is a minhag. And kitniyot is bitul b’rov. It is nothing like chametz and should not be treated like chametz.

    #1724762

    charliehall
    Participant

    Not asur at all Erev Pesach until sunset. We always eat a nice kitniyot lunch erev Pesach after noon, cooked on our Pesach kelim.

    #1724763

    charliehall
    Participant

    Not only could Ashkenazim in Israel eat kitniyot cooked before Shabat this year, they could cook kitniyot for Sefardic guests any day of Pesach any year.

    #1724779

    laskern
    Participant

    From the Mordechai Pesochim 588 mentioned above it looks like a gezera with mixing up with chametz but it is botel berov. see RMA SA O’CH 453

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