April 21, 2013 2:36 pm at 2:36 pm #609103
A student in a Bais Yaakov high school told me that she learned a halacha in school that is really bothering her and her friends.
It says in the Kitzur Shulchan Aruch: A man should not pass between two women, dogs, or pigs; two men should not allow any of them to pass between them.
Understandably, she feels demeaned about being compared to animals, and would like an explanation.April 21, 2013 6:37 pm at 6:37 pm #947728
bumpApril 21, 2013 6:46 pm at 6:46 pm #947729popa_bar_abbaParticipant
The gemara says that the halacha is like ???? in 6 cases.
These: (acc to rashi I think)
???? ??? ????
?? ???? ????? ??? ????
??? ????? ????? (which we’ll prob learn in eruvin soon)
?????? ??? ????? ?????
????? ???? ?????
???? ???? ?????? ??????
So is the gemara comparing a person who loses something and would have yiush if he knew to a mumar? Or to a pole that stands by itself?
And I just broke a golden popa rule, but it happens sometimes.April 21, 2013 6:50 pm at 6:50 pm #947730yaff80Participant
havent seen this inside or looked any Noisei Kailim, but my inital reaction is that this may have nothing to do with what and who they are but possibly has something to do with hilchos TumahApril 21, 2013 7:02 pm at 7:02 pm #947731
Popa, would you mind restating your response, in a way that those who are not supposed to have learned Gemara could understand?
Yaff: That’s equally offensive, to say pigs and dogs and girls are tamei.April 21, 2013 7:12 pm at 7:12 pm #947732midwesternerParticipant
Pigs and dogs are not mekabel tumah. Nothing is mekabel tumah while alive except Jewish people. Not beheimos, not sheratzim, not goyim.April 21, 2013 7:19 pm at 7:19 pm #947733
i’ll sum up popas point in a way that doesn’t peacock my vast torah knowledge:
grouping does not imply equivalence.April 21, 2013 7:48 pm at 7:48 pm #947734HaLeiViParticipant
Can’t you realize? It’s equating men to pigs and dogs. That’s the most obvious Pshat!April 21, 2013 7:48 pm at 7:48 pm #947735
Popa, it was a good answer, just not something I could repeat. Thank you Brony.
But something that is grouped, has to have a common factor. What is the common factor here? (if it is something I can tell a teenage BY girl)April 21, 2013 8:06 pm at 8:06 pm #947736simcha613Participant
Torah- the common factor is simple, things that a man shouldn’t walk in between. I have no idea why and I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s a different reason for all three.April 21, 2013 8:11 pm at 8:11 pm #947737
the source is 100% kabbalah (see pesachim daf kuf yud aleph), so there need not be any common factor beyond the application itself. they may be prohibited for altogether different reasons.April 21, 2013 8:13 pm at 8:13 pm #947738ToiParticipant
its because of avodah zara. a bunch of amaratzim.April 21, 2013 8:28 pm at 8:28 pm #947739
Walking between women has to do with kashe leshikcha. It causes a man to forget his learning could be it stam makes him forget even non learning things i remember seeing something like that but cant recall (I must have walked between women). Not sure about the others.
Tell this ljttle feminist in the making not to be so sensitive. Halacha isn’t arbitrary and everything has a reason and its all Hashems Torah. Tell her you can’t open a random chapter in Torah and start asking questions without knowing more information. Its like opening a chumash to where Hashem turns over Sedom and saying how can Hashem do that to 4 cities?! But if you look previously you would see why they were so punished and if you learn the medrashim you would see the extent of their wickedness. The kitzur is just that A KITZUR short version of the bare bones halacha. He just comes to tell you the basic Halacha. You want more you need to open up Gemaros mefarshim shulchin aruchs and what not.April 21, 2013 9:54 pm at 9:54 pm #947740
Toi: No it’s not.
Torah: All of these happen to be things that cause one to forget there Torah learning (Horiyos 13b, I believe). They are not being compared. They just happen to be three things that walking between causes learning to be forgotten. I believe that palm trees are also something a man shouldn’t walk between. Also,April 21, 2013 10:10 pm at 10:10 pm #947741
So I read her all of your responses.
Brony: Thank you again. She liked that it is kabbalah, and that it is for different reasons.
WIY: A girl is not a “feminist in the making” for asking an obvious question like this one, and if you ever have to answer questions for girls, you should know that a response like yours above is the one guaranteed way to produce feminists.
Additionally, she says that you obviously don’t know the answer because if you knew it then you would just say so, like others did above, instead of negating the question or the questioner.
Sam2: Thank you that was interesting. They liked the addition of palm trees.April 21, 2013 10:19 pm at 10:19 pm #947742
interesting to note that the gamara in horiyos does not mention pigs or dogs, only camels (among a whole host of other non-animal things), which suggests that indeed they are for a different reason. and the girls should not be happy because of what some dudes on an internet board say, they should look it up themselves (artscroll it if you have to) and come to their own conclusion.April 21, 2013 10:26 pm at 10:26 pm #947743
She responds “As a ‘feminist’ I believe it is the men’s sacred duty to look up interesting Midrashim, meforshim and halachos for me, answer all my random hashkafic questions, and tell fascinating Divrei Torah. In return, I have to keep tznius.”April 21, 2013 10:29 pm at 10:29 pm #947744
For the record, I disagree with her and think that we should learn how halacha is decided at some point, and certainly have nothing against looking up sources. But that’s for another thread.April 21, 2013 10:35 pm at 10:35 pm #947745
I said what Sam said although I wasnt sure about the dog and pig and I also said she is a budding feminist which is obvious and I dont know why my response would make one feminist. Would you open an airplane builders manual and look at one random sentence and take offense when theres 1000’s of things in that manual that you have no clue about and will have to spend years in school understanding? If yes you are a certified idiot.April 21, 2013 10:57 pm at 10:57 pm #947746
I am not sure why you can’t show her the answer of Popa.
Given that not even that answer seem to you it will convince her, I do not think you should answer because I do not think you can provide her with a satisfactory answer (an answer she will find satisfactory). If she is bothered, we are entitled to have feelings (are we not all bothered, say, by innocent suffering? personally, that bothers me much more than hearing shelo asani eisha). I think you should tell her that we don’t understand everything.
Are you her teacher?April 21, 2013 11:42 pm at 11:42 pm #947748
WIY: You are being unfair and a bit offensive here. She asked a question because she saw something potentially offensive. She didn’t attack anyone or anything. She just wanted an explanation. We believe that HKBH is good and fair and that the Torah is perfect because He is perfect. Thus, nothing in it should be offensive. If there is, the proper thing to do would be to ask how something seemingly offensive makes sense, which is exactly what this person did. We are not the Catholic Church. We don’t attack anyone for asking any questions (with 4 exceptions; see Chagigah 12b, I think). We answer those questions honestly because all of the Torah is D’vash V’chalav Tachas L’shoneich. Thus, when a girl (or a boy, but it’s more common among girls) just learning new things sees something that seems troublesome, we explain the Amittah Shel Torah and they will realize on their own how it is all actually perfect and fair. Responses like yours would make us no different than the Catholics. It is our openness to all questions that has served as a strong proof throughout the years that our religion is correct. You don’t just tell the person asking questions, “learn more”. You actually give the context and answer the question and explain everything. That is the Chiyuv of L’lamed.April 22, 2013 12:14 am at 12:14 am #947749
Ok. You are right. Thanks for setting me straight. I am not against people asking real questions but I get annoyed with the “I don’t think that’s nice or fair…feminist type questions.” It rubs me like they think they know better than Hashem about what’s good fair moral nice and all that.April 22, 2013 12:17 am at 12:17 am #947750OneOfManyParticipant
Sam2 +1April 22, 2013 12:22 am at 12:22 am #947751
WIY: If you give someone a real explanation (which means explaining more than just once or twice) and then they refuse to acknowledge something because it doesn’t seem “fair” to them, then you know that they are either arrogant enough to think they know better than God or they don’t really care what the Torah has to say. But we can’t let our defensiveness about those type of people turn off those who want to just honestly understand the Torah and their place in this world.April 22, 2013 1:45 am at 1:45 am #947752
10-4April 22, 2013 1:48 am at 1:48 am #947753
WIY: I’ll take that as an apology.April 22, 2013 1:53 am at 1:53 am #947754
Daniela: Popa’s answer was great. However, due to my lack of familiarity with Shas, it would take me a long time to look it up and explain it to her.April 22, 2013 1:54 am at 1:54 am #947755
Sam2: Thank you.April 22, 2013 3:54 am at 3:54 am #947756
Sorry didn’t mean to be so harsh.April 22, 2013 4:00 am at 4:00 am #947757HaLeiViParticipant
What Toi said, that it has to with Avoda Zara, although the Gemara doesn’t give such a reason (as far as us Amei Haaretz are aware of), Reb Chaim Ben Reb Betzalel, in his Sefer Hachaim, does Darshen some of them in that direction.April 22, 2013 4:39 am at 4:39 am #947758yitzchokmParticipant
with all these apologies, it’s time to sing KumbyahApril 22, 2013 5:53 am at 5:53 am #947759CuriosityParticipant
Awwww so beautiful. Shkoyach to you WIY, for beating down your own ego – you are a gavra. Sam2, always nice to read your posts. I still remember having my first real discussion on the CR with you. I hope all is well with you. =)April 22, 2013 7:29 am at 7:29 am #947760
That’s precisely the point, in my humble opinion. I do not think the young lady’s familiarity with Shas is too great, and I also notice that she is asking a woman, she did not ask her father / brothers / Rabbi (or she asked and they did not answer; possibly there is a reason for that). I think you might tell her you asked and were given this answer (print it out): if she understand it, awesome, she will have her answer (BTW thanks Popa for sharing this beautiful insight). If, as I suspect, she can’t, she will be forced to reach the correct conclusion, ie that she is ignorant – and that’s the very reason she asked the original question. Yet, if the question was sincere, she will go to her father or brother or Rabbi and ask them to please explain what does it mean, admitting that the various cases when the halacha is according to Rabbi Abaye and someone who lost hope about a lost object and a mumar etc. don’t seem to her to have a relation with her question, and will ask them to please explain why is this supposed to be an answer to a question of hers – which she will respectfully state. In the event the question was insincere, now it is her problem, you have quoted her from the Talmud, which to a woman is unusual and yet you promptly did, and there is nothing more she can ask for.
If you are her teacher, I find her statement you quote “As a ‘feminist’ I believe it is the men’s sacred duty to look up interesting Midrashim, meforshim and halachos for me, answer all my random hashkafic questions, and tell fascinating Divrei Torah. In return, I have to keep tznius.” if that is quoted correctly, quite disrespectful and not the proper way to address anyone, let alone a teacher.April 22, 2013 9:48 am at 9:48 am #947761
WIY: It’s okay. You’re forgiven. 🙂 It was very out of character for you anyway.
Sam2: Saying something “has to do with a”z” does not answer the question. Just say what exactly it has to do with a”z.
Firstly, you have absolutely no idea why she is asking me. I’m not her teacher (If I was, I wouldn’t teach from the kitzur)
Secondly, her comment about feminism, learning Torah, and tznius was a joke, if immature, in response to Brony’s telling her to look it up in the Gemara.
Thirdly, as you suggested, I read her the answers here.
Fourthly, as a very bright teenager, I know for a fact she would be extremely offended by an answer that attempted merely to teach her about her ignorance. She knows she is ignorant. She wants to learn Torah, but she doesn’t want to learn Gemara, as she is a BY girl. It’s very hard to draw a line.
Fifthly, you’re saying that just because someone quoted from the Talmud, she should be grateful that she got any answer at all, and now should pursue it elsewhere. I thank Hashem I am not related to you, I would have gone off the derech by the time I hit high school.
Our relationship, and why we chose to post this, is not relevant to the question. She was responding to Brony, who in my opinion was entirely correct to tell her to look it up, and who also answered the question asked. Yes she is immature. That’s okay in my opinion, she is supposed to be. But she doesn’t deserve – nobody deserves – to be insulted or to have her question ignored just because she is immature. She asked sincerely.April 22, 2013 10:39 am at 10:39 am #947762
Of course we know why she is asking you. She did not ask you why some details of a neurosurgery are not performed in a different way, nor did she ask you about altering the definition for a topological manifold, because (1) she is well aware she does not master either topic and would make a fool of herself (and a secular teacher would *not* react nicely – which I do not advocate, I am merely stating a fact) and (2) this is not the whole story, as she has understood all there is to understand: a woman should not pass between two men and a man should not pass between two women. She is not asking you a halachic question (such as how distant may two woman be, to be permissible for man to walk between them), she is asking you why the Torah counterposes two women and two pigs. There is no answer to that which will satisfy her. It is my opinion that the more you try to answer, the more you will fuel her misplaced feelings of being demeaned. I actually wonder if it is the quote who bothers her, or viceversa if she is bothered and seeks quotes to rationalize why she is bothered. Are you bothered by this quote? I am not. If there’s a large sign at the border “animals and diamonds must be declared at customs” I think everyone, even a fool, will figure out the obvious, the animals are subject to health checks, the diamonds to taxation. No one will think we are entering a country that does not value diamonds! Most important, someone who is bothered by this quote is likely to be bothered by plenty of other quotes in the Torah. In such a situation I think only extreme honesty and sincerity on both sides can help.April 22, 2013 10:43 am at 10:43 am #947763
Daniela, this was an honest question, and she is satisfied with the answers above. Sof Maaseh B’machashava techila.
Thanks to all of the posters who helped answer.April 22, 2013 10:49 am at 10:49 am #947764
Thank you T613T and I am glad the answers satisfied her.April 22, 2013 12:56 pm at 12:56 pm #947765ChortkovParticipant
Nobody has discussed yet what the Golden Poppa Rule that Poppa broke. Is it the one where You say that You will not be sarcastic or joke while talking in learning?April 22, 2013 1:03 pm at 1:03 pm #947766popa_bar_abbaParticipant
No, it was the one that you don’t use mesholim to answer a question instead of just answering it.April 22, 2013 3:20 pm at 3:20 pm #947768yytzParticipant
Is Kitzur Shulchan Aruch 3:8 in the original Shulchan Aruch? There are lots of things in the Kitzur that are not in the Shulchan Aruch, and not normative halacha or minhag today.April 22, 2013 3:40 pm at 3:40 pm #947769
yytz: It is a Gemara in Horiyos. I do not know if it is brought down in the Mechaber but I do know that the Aruch Hashulchan mentions it and I think the Mishnah B’rurah also brings down the list of 10 things that are Kasheh L’shich’chah. It’s not an Issur per se, but good advice if you don’t want spiritual/Kabbalistic impediments towards remembering your learning.April 22, 2013 4:23 pm at 4:23 pm #947771rationalfrummieMember
From personal experience this is very good advice. Enough said.April 22, 2013 6:40 pm at 6:40 pm #947772
It’s in pesachim, not horiyos (discusses something entirely different, as I mentioned earlier).April 22, 2013 11:12 pm at 11:12 pm #947773
Brony: No. The Gemara in Pesachim says that if you see two women standing across from each other in the street, you shouldn’t walk between them because you have to worry that they are engaged in sorcery. (Apparently, in the Gemara’s times sorcery was so prevalent and/or it was so rare for even non-Jewish women to be on the street that the vast majority of women across the street from each other were doing sorcery.) The Gemara in Horiyos 13b gives a list of 10 things that cause one to forget their learning. One of those 10 is walking between two women.
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